And after thinking about the PG situation - re the Lonzo Ball thread with Payne and TJ McConnell as PG foils - I am now more on the side that the Knicks will sign a PG and I think TJ would be good value add even though he may not be considered a starter for a front line team. TJ fits the Thibs mode of a player he likes - play D, orchestrate O, and get to the rim - and would be a low cost fall back (and I think all Knicks fans would fall in love with this guy, especially given the low bar Elf has set).

The below obviously doesn't have all of the roster spot cap holds but close enough and I obviously left out the cap holds for next year but all the important guys are UFAs. Randle 2021 season salary got bumped cause of bonuses reached. Mitch's hold is 200% and I agree with knickoftime in other thread that there is no reason to sign him now versus next year.

If I am the Knicks I go after TJ-like guy (or Payne for 1 year) with more 1 year deals for the rest and sit for a year and then maybe go after Zach LaVine and Rick Brunson.

Those 2 first round picks and #32 will be juicy delight to fill out the roster.

****Edited to add NOAH

* CAP HOLDS

		Age 	 2020-21 	 2021-22 	 2022-23 	 2023-24
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julius Randle	26	 18,900,000 	 20,745,000 	 31,117,500 	
RJ Barrett	20	 8,231,760 	 8,623,920 	 10,900,635 	 27,251,588 
Derrick Rose	32	 7,682,927 		
Frank Ntilikina	22	 6,176,578 			
Alec Burks	29	 6,000,000 			
Elfrid Payton	27	 5,760,000 			
Nerlens Noel	27	 5,000,000 			
Obi Toppin	23	 4,862,040 	 5,105,160 	 5,348,280 	 6,803,012 
Kevin Knox	21	 4,588,680 	 5,845,978 		
Reggie Bullock	30	 4,200,000 			
Taj Gibson	35	 3,283,684 			
Luca Vildoza	25	 3,162,791 	 3,320,930 	 3,479,070 	 3,637,209 
Immanuel Q	21	 2,105,520 	 2,210,640 	 2,316,240 	 4,171,548 
Mitchell R	23	 1,663,861 	 1,802,057 	 3,400,000 	
Norvel Pelle	28	 500,000 	 1,701,593 		
2021 FRP		 2,200,000 	 2,300,000 	 2,400,000 
2021 FRP		 2,200,000 	 2,300,000 	 2,400,000 
Noah			 6,431,666 	 6,431,666
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Team Totals				 60,186,944 	 61,161,725 	 46,663,357 
Salary Cap				 112,000,000 	 116,000,000 	 119,000,000 
Cap Space				 51,813,056 	 54,838,275 	 72,336,644 

Wow ok this does change everything.

I’ll stick with the draft analysis. Still a novice with the contracts lol

Good role player talent picks 17-45 guys check out my suggested pics topic

I like the idea of Lavine and Brunson

For me, I wouldnd't trust Rose for a full season and would absolutely have 2 other PGs on the roster. Burks has been nice as a backup ball handler but just not enough for me.

Don't know what the market is for a guy like TJ but nothing more than $7M for 1 year.

Gotta guess the Knicks will also draft a PG so that player will also come into play.

BigDaddyG wrote:Are you thinking about starting TJ? I'm assuming you're bringing Rose back if you do. My thinking on TJ is just to wait and see how Luka performs. I like TJ in limited minutes, but I wouldn't be surprised if Vildoza gave you similar impact. Also, I'm sure TJ is getting offered a multi-year deal from someone. How much would you overpay to get him to sign a one year deal?

2) Could you explain the $3.4mm for Robinson? Is that his cap hold?

3) Maintaining the core on 1 year contracts would bring Rose and Bullock to Bird Rights and would make the others early birds. Worth considering what those cap holds are.

4) One aspect of cap management being given up is the ability to use exceptions (MLE, drafted player as prime examples). I think of cap management as both cap space and potential salary. If you accept that salary and skill are generally more correlated than not - the ability to exceed the cap and add more salary should add better talent depth. Theoretically, you could have quite a bit more salary than you list in 20/23 if the Knicks were to find good salary adds this year and utilize the exceptions in 22/23.

In theory, the Knicks would be in a better position to make deadline trades by adding value players and not just “facilitating” this year. Goal should be to maximize roster talent every year. I don’t really believe in the “waiting” game any longer.

martin wrote:I definitely made a mistake in thinking the Knicks should go all in this summer, looks like the cap situation is not much different if the team holds for a year and I gotta guess they will - FA market just sucks. I am a buyer in the TT "use the cap space to facilitate" for the next year and see what happens. 2022 just feel like the sweet spot of Lots of cap space meets Free agents that will be worth it. 2023 summer gets clogged if Randle, RJ, Mitch meet some semblance of expectations.

And after thinking about the PG situation - re the Lonzo Ball thread with Payne and TJ McConnell as PG foils - I am now more on the side that the Knicks will sign a PG and I think TJ would be good value add even though he may not be considered a starter for a front line team. TJ fits the Thibs mode of a player he likes - play D, orchestrate O, and get to the rim - and would be a low cost fall back (and I think all Knicks fans would fall in love with this guy, especially given the low bar Elf has set).

The below obviously doesn't have all of the roster spot cap holds but close enough and I obviously left out the cap holds for next year but all the important guys are UFAs. Randle 2021 season salary got bumped cause of bonuses reached. Mitch's hold is 200% and I agree with knickoftime in other thread that there is no reason to sign him now versus next year.

If I am the Knicks I go after TJ-like guy (or Payne for 1 year) with more 1 year deals for the rest and sit for a year and then maybe go after Zach LaVine and Rick Brunson.

Those 2 first round picks and #32 will be juicy delight to fill out the roster.

* CAP HOLDS

		Age 	 2020-21 	 2021-22 	 2022-23 	 2023-24
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julius Randle	26	 18,900,000 	 20,745,000 	 31,117,500 	
RJ Barrett	20	 8,231,760 	 8,623,920 	 10,900,635 	 27,251,588 
Derrick Rose	32	 7,682,927 		
Frank Ntilikina	22	 6,176,578 			
Alec Burks	29	 6,000,000 			
Elfrid Payton	27	 5,760,000 			
Nerlens Noel	27	 5,000,000 			
Obi Toppin	23	 4,862,040 	 5,105,160 	 5,348,280 	 6,803,012 
Kevin Knox	21	 4,588,680 	 5,845,978 		
Reggie Bullock	30	 4,200,000 			
Taj Gibson	35	 3,283,684 			
Luca Vildoza	25	 3,162,791 	 3,320,930 	 3,479,070 	 3,637,209 
Immanuel Q	21	 2,105,520 	 2,210,640 	 2,316,240 	 4,171,548 
Mitchell R	23	 1,663,861 	 1,802,057 	 3,400,000 	
Norvel Pelle	28	 500,000 	 1,701,593 		
2021 FRP		 2,200,000 	 2,300,000 	 2,400,000 
2021 FRP		 2,200,000 	 2,300,000 	 2,400,000 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Team Totals				 53,755,278 	 61,161,725 	 
Salary Cap				 112,000,000 	 116,000,000 	 119,000,000 
Cap Space				 58,244,722 	 54,838,275 	 

I agree it may be in our best interest to keep things as clean as possible for another year. TJ would be a great addition but not sure about as a starter due to being a non-factor from 3pt. Honestly I’d start Rose but make sure to have a committee behind him to keep his minutes down if we aren’t going to sign a new starting level PG. TJ just isn’t that. But I like him for this roster. You can honestly even start Burks at PG if we are concerned about Rose going up against starters.

BigDaddyG wrote:Another guy the Knicks could take a flyer on in a make good deal is Malik Monk. He definitely isn't a point guard, but he could replace Burk. Or do you guys think he's to redundant?

Good idea but let’s look at Alec burks

6-5 no shoes

6-10 wingspan

Once upon of time good vertical

Plays on/off ball

Can create his own shot

Malik monk is comparable as far as production he would offer. The only difference is size and defense and character of the two players

But monk 6-3 with 6-4 wingspan. Might as well just draft cam Thomas. Sounds about the same

Only draft player close to bullock and burks is (Chris Duarte) potentially. Size and talent

martin wrote:

He would be my number 1 target at the point but I can't imagine Dallas will let him get away...

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

He would be my number 1 target at the point but I can't imagine Dallas will let him get away...

I would love Brunson.

Here is my concern as far as team building is concerned.

Take Payton out of the mix. You have Mitch, Noel (or Gibson) for centers. Randle and Toppin at the 4. Barrett, Bullock, and Burks on the wing, and Rose with Quickley at the PG (with Quickley playing some 2). There is your 9-man rotation when healthy. Anyone we sign would either have to be a significant upgrade over one of these players, or be a depth piece. Vildoza may creep in as a 10th man, but if the Knicks play the 9 previously mentioned, than no one besides Randle and Barrett would be playing 30 mins per game anyways.

C Robinson 26 mpg
F Randle 34 mpg
G/F Bullock 28 mpg
G/F Barrett 34 mpg
G Rose 28 mpg

G/F Burks 28 mpg
G Quickley 26 mpg
F Toppin 14 mpg
C Noel 22 mpg

To me this is your rotation. Rose, Quickley, or Burks can start at PG, it doesn't matter. Vildoza can play spot minutes, and target draft picks and a couple of free agents who can provide value when needed. This works if Thibs trusts Quickley and Toppin with a few more minutes per game in year 2. I'm all for adding a solid PG this summer like Ball, McConnell, etc, but i struggle to replace anyone flat out in this 9 man rotation. If Burks or Bullock get a huge offer, that's a different story, but i am assuming Rose just doesn't let these guys walk.

Knixkik wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

He would be my number 1 target at the point but I can't imagine Dallas will let him get away...

I would love Brunson.

Here is my concern as far as team building is concerned.

Take Payton out of the mix. You have Mitch, Noel (or Gibson) for centers. Randle and Toppin at the 4. Barrett, Bullock, and Burks on the wing, and Rose with Quickley at the PG (with Quickley playing some 2). There is your 9-man rotation when healthy. Anyone we sign would either have to be a significant upgrade over one of these players, or be a depth piece. Vildoza may creep in as a 10th man, but if the Knicks play the 9 previously mentioned, than no one besides Randle and Barrett would be playing 30 mins per game anyways.

C Robinson 26 mpg
F Randle 34 mpg
G/F Bullock 28 mpg
G/F Barrett 34 mpg
G Rose 28 mpg

G/F Burks 28 mpg
G Quickley 26 mpg
F Toppin 14 mpg
C Noel 22 mpg

To me this is your rotation. Rose, Quickley, or Burks can start at PG, it doesn't matter. Vildoza can play spot minutes, and target draft picks and a couple of free agents who can provide value when needed. This works if Thibs trusts Quickley and Toppin with a few more minutes per game in year 2. I'm all for adding a solid PG this summer like Ball, McConnell, etc, but i struggle to replace anyone flat out in this 9 man rotation. If Burks or Bullock get a huge offer, that's a different story, but i am assuming Rose just doesn't let these guys walk.

We will differ on Rose being a good fit with the starting lineup. I think Rose is more of a scorer than an orchestrater and because of his age and health would be better off the bench. Rose will be 33 at the start of next season and really hasn't been a starter for 4 years now and he has not topped 65 games in a season in about a decade, I think he and Thibs realize his role.

But I am talking about 2022 lineup in regards to Brunson.

Brunson is on the same'ish contract as Mitch. 2021 becomes guaranteed on 8/1/2021 and then he would be an UFA summer 2022. Dallas would obviously have his Bird Rights but this is may be a situation where the Knicks could take advantage of Leon's connect with the Brunson family (I'm not a big CAA, Kentucky all-in connect the dots guy but this is one exception). Rick will always be competing with Luca for PG duties. Knicks will have the cap space to pay him and the starting position and team to surround him that would be better than the Dallas situation. Rick will also not have to play with a deadweight PF.

My pie in the sky targets (today) for summer 2022 are Brunson and LaVine.

Brunson, Zach, RJ, Randle, Mitch.

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

He would be my number 1 target at the point but I can't imagine Dallas will let him get away...

I would love Brunson.

Here is my concern as far as team building is concerned.

Take Payton out of the mix. You have Mitch, Noel (or Gibson) for centers. Randle and Toppin at the 4. Barrett, Bullock, and Burks on the wing, and Rose with Quickley at the PG (with Quickley playing some 2). There is your 9-man rotation when healthy. Anyone we sign would either have to be a significant upgrade over one of these players, or be a depth piece. Vildoza may creep in as a 10th man, but if the Knicks play the 9 previously mentioned, than no one besides Randle and Barrett would be playing 30 mins per game anyways.

C Robinson 26 mpg
F Randle 34 mpg
G/F Bullock 28 mpg
G/F Barrett 34 mpg
G Rose 28 mpg

G/F Burks 28 mpg
G Quickley 26 mpg
F Toppin 14 mpg
C Noel 22 mpg

To me this is your rotation. Rose, Quickley, or Burks can start at PG, it doesn't matter. Vildoza can play spot minutes, and target draft picks and a couple of free agents who can provide value when needed. This works if Thibs trusts Quickley and Toppin with a few more minutes per game in year 2. I'm all for adding a solid PG this summer like Ball, McConnell, etc, but i struggle to replace anyone flat out in this 9 man rotation. If Burks or Bullock get a huge offer, that's a different story, but i am assuming Rose just doesn't let these guys walk.

We will differ on Rose being a good fit with the starting lineup. I think Rose is more of a scorer than an orchestrater and because of his age and health would be better off the bench. Rose will be 33 at the start of next season and really hasn't been a starter for 4 years now and he has not topped 65 games in a season in about a decade, I think he and Thibs realize his role.

But I am talking about 2022 lineup in regards to Brunson.

Brunson is on the same'ish contract as Mitch. 2021 becomes guaranteed on 8/1/2021 and then he would be an UFA summer 2022. Dallas would obviously have his Bird Rights but this is may be a situation where the Knicks could take advantage of Leon's connect with the Brunson family (I'm not a big CAA, Kentucky all-in connect the dots guy but this is one exception). Rick will always be competing with Luca for PG duties. Knicks will have the cap space to pay him and the starting position and team to surround him that would be better than the Dallas situation. Rick will also not have to play with a deadweight PF.

My pie in the sky targets (today) for summer 2022 are Brunson and LaVine.

Brunson, Zach, RJ, Randle, Mitch.

I agree, that 5 would be great. For next year Rose isn't a natural facilitator but he doesn't need to be with Randle on the floor. Rose with the other 4 starters was one of the best 5-man group in basketball this year. But like i said, you can start Burks, Rose, or Quickley, it doesn't matter. All of them play on and off the ball. For 2022, i agree that Brunson, LaVine, Barrett, Randle, and Mitch is a strong 5.