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Centers of influence........
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Nalod
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10/21/2004  5:33 PM
Where are all the centers gone.

They either too skinny, or too dam fat!

Why no solid bid guys?

Are they turning into linemen instead of hoop?

Is 6'11 not big enough for center?

IS it a lack of skill at the position? Not enough foot work training?

Anybody think Jabbar would have made it today? Too skinny in his youth and that hook shot not macho enough for todays generation?

Shaq won't shoot free throws underhand cuz its not macho, even if it helps. Big guys don't hook anymore, yet it used to be a huge weapon!
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TheloniusMonk
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10/21/2004  5:38 PM
Where I'm from people STILL talk about Kareem and his sky hook! Impossible to block! You just had to hope he missed.
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teslawlo
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10/21/2004  6:01 PM
It's a good question. Maybe it's one of those things where basketball genes for tall people skipped a generation I doubt this lack of centers thing will last too long. Part of it might have to do with the fact that everyone wants to be a Kevin Garnett now, doing everything. No one wants to focus just on being a center..
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fishmike
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10/21/2004  8:20 PM
its always been this way...
Think about Ewing. There was Pat, Hakeem, Robinson and who else? Brad Doughterty? Mark Eton? Cartwright? Center has always been a position populated by large and often unskilled players.
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Rich
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10/21/2004  11:13 PM
It's similar to the late George Young's "elephant theory" of offensive linemen. There are only so many big, skilled people on the planet.

As others have said, you can't teach height.
Nalod
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10/21/2004  11:31 PM
But there have been the Sven Naters, and Mark Eaton, Kevin Duckworth type of player whom could fill a roll with excellence and not be a star.
Rich
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10/22/2004  12:48 AM
Posted by Nalod:

But there have been the Sven Naters, and Mark Eaton, Kevin Duckworth type of player whom could fill a roll with excellence and not be a star.

IIRC, Nater and Eaton were first round picks, and Duckworth was a high second. My guess is that Isiah will address that need with this year's first round pick, barring the availability of a player at another position that he can't pass up.

Also, Isiah seems to have counted on improvement from Nazr, which has happened yet.
jazz74
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10/22/2004  8:26 AM
as far as i see it, our generation has been spoiled with seeing the most talented core of big men in nbs history the last 15 years. in the 50's it was mikan, the 60's were wilt and russel, the 70's had walton, reed and jabbar. in the early 80's we had malone. then the explosion in the mid 80's all the way to the 90's started. olojowan, robinson, ewing, shaq, mourning and daugherty were all excellent centers playing around the same era which was unheard of. true, there were more servicable centers in those eras who learned to just rebound and block shots. but having a void of talented big men is just part of a cycle. i also think the game have changed so much that it is nearly impossible to groom effective big men. how good would curry and chandler be if they went to college and learned how to be centers? that is one of the problems of drafting high school players. they must learn on the fly especially if they are on bad teams. they do not have a chance to succeed as a big man. besides point guard, the 5 is the most demanding position on the floor. a large responsibility for these youngsters. just think, curry and chandler would have been out of college now and might have been more polished and efficient than they are now. crazy. the same can be made of kwame brown and kendrick brown who both should be prototype centers with college experience. even those seven footers who did succeeded in the nba are not prototype centers. they become skilled fours who can play multiple positions. garnett, duncan, jermaine o'neal and nowitski would have been centers 20 years ago. possibly excellent ones. but times have changed a little. then in 5 years it will change again.
EnySpree
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10/22/2004  8:27 AM
Centers back in the day did their job....

I thought Duckworth and Brad Daughtery were good players. Brad had a slick offensive game and was a great passer.

Mike Giminski was pretty good too....nothing dominant but he was better than alot out now.

Mark Eaton was a bum but he would stand there and defend that rim to the death.

Robert Parrish was always solid.

Rick Smits was a deadly player especially in big games.

There were quite a few good centers back in the day.

Even guys like Benoit Benjamin and the dude that was drafted ahead of Jordan was solid before he got hurt.

Todays crop of centers seem to be getting better but they still aren't as good as in the past.

I'm waiting for David Harrison to show something....He is wide and he suprisingly has alot of moves down low. He's been hurt twice already in pre-season.....right now his shoulder is hurting. He's gonna be a double double guy one day.

Curry, Prezec, Gadzuric, Zaza etc.....there are a few coming up....

Then there are the Cato's and Battie's.....

Yao and Shaq of course.

I think it's gonna be a compeditive position soon.

[Edited by - enyspree on 10/22/2004 08:29:35]
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EnySpree
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10/22/2004  8:51 AM
Can the Knicks get Toni Battie? I think he is a solid center.
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Nalod
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10/22/2004  9:06 AM
Posted by EnySpree:

Can the Knicks get Toni Battie? I think he is a solid center.

Good takes. Maybe the Euroization of the center is the coming trend. Big dudes with outside shots that have height.

Brad Daughterty was 7/8 Tim Duncan before early injury started eating him up. His fundamentals were solid, mobile and a big body. He had a "SOFT" lablel, bu that is because he was finesse player. Playing in Clevelenad buried his talent on the national scene. Harper, Price, nance, and him were a nice team. Jordan took them out and they never recovered.

IM not looking for the stars, but the lack of centers with fundamentals is amazing.
EnySpree
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10/22/2004  9:39 AM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by EnySpree:

Can the Knicks get Toni Battie? I think he is a solid center.

Good takes. Maybe the Euroization of the center is the coming trend. Big dudes with outside shots that have height.

Brad Daughterty was 7/8 Tim Duncan before early injury started eating him up. His fundamentals were solid, mobile and a big body. He had a "SOFT" lablel, bu that is because he was finesse player. Playing in Clevelenad buried his talent on the national scene. Harper, Price, nance, and him were a nice team. Jordan took them out and they never recovered.

IM not looking for the stars, but the lack of centers with fundamentals is amazing.

I agree....

It seems like coaches have strayed away from producing a true back to the basket center.

There are dudes out there that are over 7' but they might not have the run and jump power everyone looks for. Everyone is focused on getting a Garnett, the player that is just a freak and can play just about all the positions.

I think David Harrison can be that guy. He might start a trend. It seems like whenever a player sucseeds against the grain the NBA and the American Basketball world tends to go on a witch hunt to find them.

No one is out to get the next Jordan anymore cuz the league is filled with them......they trying to get the Next Shaq or Duncan.....

I would be happy to see a few Sam Bowies around......maybe even a few Cartwrights, or Jack Sikmas....just a dude that will just trail a play and do what his position calls for.
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Vmart
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10/22/2004  10:53 AM
The problem in today's NBA is that teams are not willing to play centers regularly. Hence the lack of centers. They would rather make a PF a center but not let a true center be a center. They see the skills in todays PFs and think it would be great if they could play him at center. There are centers that are 7' out there but who is really giving them the chance to learn. The Knicks have 4 center on their team Vin and Nazr are teewners. So they have 2 true center and they see no action. Instead they would rather play the PFs at center. Batteer and Sandov sit and watch.

I'm sick of seeing powerforwards playing center. There is something said for a true center no matter how lacking in skill he might be. I respect teams that give up stats to get a legit center in the game. Think about it for a second. The Nets have Jason Collins who plays regularly at center doesn't produce great numbers but he is a legit center and it works they can easily find powerforwards that produce better numbers but I don't think it would produce the same amount of wins.

Put it this way if the KNicks today went with Sandov or Bateer as their starting center I won't mind it all. Because I know if they play they get better and they will produce eventually.
Kwazimodal
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10/22/2004  10:57 AM
I read somewhere that China has over 200 7ft centers now,if some of them can actually play and are coachable we may see an influx of big men from there.
fishmike
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10/22/2004  11:05 AM
Put it this way if the KNicks today went with Sandov or Bateer as their starting center I won't mind it all. Because I know if they play they get better and they will produce eventually.
what do they give you? They are tall... thats it. Please, they are total fodder. Just because you have a good arm doesnt mean you can play baseball.

The Knicks arent in a position to go and get a stud bigman, they are going to have to grow their own. Briggs mentioned Marcus Dowhitt (sp?). That kind of player. Someone with physical skills and a work ethic. Dalembert, Brad Miller, Ben Wallace, Jermaine Oneil... these were guys landed at one point for a relatively low price.
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Vmart
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10/22/2004  11:27 AM
I agree with that. But here is the problem if the Knicks do get a young 7' player that needs work will they do it. They are going to think like you what do they give you. he is tall thats it. You will never know until a chance is given. Thats why I say if they give the run to Sundov he is going to make mistakes in the begining after a while he will settle in know his role better and what is expected of him. It takes more than 1 or 2 preseason games to say this guy sucks and will amount to nothing.

Damn we are going to miss Deke this year. There is going to be no interior presence this year.
gunsnewing
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10/22/2004  11:35 AM
Thats the problem I think. That is why people expect so much out of Nazr. They want Nazr to develope as a Knick but some guys never will especially when they've been in the league for 7+ years. Someday we'll have our true center. Either through a great draft pick or we'll sign one, once Allan Houston's contract is off the books
gunsnewing
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10/22/2004  11:38 AM
I agree with Nalod somewhat. I still rather see Kurt start at center alongside Sweetney though. But Sundov should be ahead of Nazr on the depth chart. At least he has moves on offense..his defense can't be much worse and he's much taller.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10/22/2004 11:40:43]
Kwazimodal
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10/22/2004  11:47 AM
Got this from realgm.2005 FAs may not be accurate but there are a few centers to choose from and some good non-big men as well


Player Team Type
Jason Collier Atlanta Free Agent
Tony Delk Atlanta Free Agent
Al Harrington Atlanta Free Agent
Walter McCarty Boston Free Agent
Justin Reed Boston Free Agent
Jiri Welsch Boston Restricted Free Agent
Corey Benjamin Charlotte Free Agent
Melvin Ely Charlotte Restricted Free Agent
Bernard Robinson Charlotte Free Agent
Tamar Slay Charlotte Free Agent
Tyson Chandler Chicago Free Agent
Eddy Curry Chicago Free Agent
Antonio Davis Chicago Free Agent
Eric Piatkowski Chicago Free Agent
Eddie Robinson Chicago Free Agent
Frank Williams Chicago Restricted Free Agent
DeSagana Diop Cleveland Restricted Free Agent
Drew Gooden Cleveland Restricted Free Agent
Robert Traylor Cleveland Free Agent
Dajuan Wagner Cleveland Restricted Free Agent
Dan Dickau Dallas Restricted Free Agent
Didier Ilunga-Mbenga Dallas Free Agent
Jason Terry Dallas Free Agent
Francisco Elson Denver Free Agent
Nene Hilario Denver Restricted Free Agent
Voshon Lenard Denver Free Agent
Nikoloz Tskitishvili Denver Restricted Free Agent
Rodney White Denver Free Agent
Derrick Coleman Detroit Free Agent
Ronald Dupree Detroit Free Agent
Lindsey Hunter Detroit Free Agent
TayShaun Prince Detroit Restricted Free Agent
Ben Wallace Detroit Free Agent
Chris Jefferies Free Agent Restricted Free Agent
Calbert Cheaney Golden State Free Agent
Speedy Claxton Golden State Free Agent
Mike Dunleavy Golden State Restricted Free Agent
Luis Flores Golden State Free Agent
Troy Murphy Golden State Free Agent
Jason Richardson Golden State Free Agent
Clifford Robinson Golden State Free Agent
Jimmy Jackson Houston Free Agent
Yao Ming Houston Restricted Free Agent
Dikembe Mutombo Houston Free Agent
Scott Padgett Houston Free Agent
Clarence Weatherspoon Houston Free Agent
Eddie Gill Indiana Free Agent
Fred Jones Indiana Restricted Free Agent
Reggie Miller Indiana Free Agent
Scot Pollard Indiana Free Agent
Jamaal Tinsley Indiana Free Agent
Rashad Wright Indiana Free Agent
Mamadou N'Diaye L.A. Clippers Free Agent
Chris Wilcox L.A. Clippers Restricted Free Agent
Chucky Atkins L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Tony Bobbitt L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Caron Butler L.A. Lakers Restricted Free Agent
Vlade Divac L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Devean George L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Jumaine Jones L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Stanislav Medvedenko L.A. Lakers Free Agent
Kareem Rush L.A. Lakers Restricted Free Agent
Antonio Burks Memphis Free Agent
Andre Emmett Memphis Free Agent
Pau Gasol Memphis Free Agent
Ryan Humphrey Memphis Restricted Free Agent
Bonzi Wells Memphis Free Agent
Lorenzen Wright Memphis Free Agent
Rasual Butler Miami Free Agent
Keyon Dooling Miami Free Agent
Matt Freije Miami Free Agent
Damon Jones Miami Free Agent
Shaquille O'Neal Miami Free Agent
Wesley Person Miami Free Agent
Marcus Haislip Milwaukee Restricted Free Agent
Zendon Hamilton Milwaukee Free Agent
Lonnie Jones Milwaukee Free Agent
Michael Redd Milwaukee Free Agent
Keith Van Horn Milwaukee Free Agent
Sam Cassell Minnesota Free Agent
Fred Hoiberg Minnesota Free Agent
Michael Olowokandi Minnesota Free Agent
Jason Collins New Jersey Free Agent
Kyle Davis New Jersey Free Agent
Ron Mercer New Jersey Free Agent
Jacque Vaughn New Jersey Free Agent
Aaron Williams New Jersey Free Agent
Chris Andersen New Orleans Free Agent
George Lynch New Orleans Free Agent
Jamal Mashburn New Orleans Free Agent
David Wesley New Orleans Free Agent
Trevor Azia New York Free Agent
Vin Baker New York Free Agent
Anfernee Hardaway New York Free Agent
Nazr Mohammed New York Free Agent
Tim Thomas New York Free Agent
Stacey Augmon Orlando Free Agent
Tony Battie Orlando Free Agent
Michael Bradley Orlando Free Agent
Kelvin Cato Orlando Free Agent
Mario Kasun Orlando Free Agent
Cuttino Mobley Orlando Free Agent
Kedrick Brown Philadelphia Free Agent
Samuel Dalembert Philadelphia Free Agent
John Salmons Philadelphia Restricted Free Agent
Steven Hunter Phoenix Free Agent
Casey Jacobsen Phoenix Restricted Free Agent
Joe Johnson Phoenix Free Agent
Amare Stoudemire Phoenix Restricted Free Agent
Jake Voskuhl Phoenix Free Agent
Jackson Vroman Phoenix Free Agent
Joel Przybilla Portland Free Agent
Zach Randolph Portland Free Agent
Nick Van Exel Portland Free Agent
Qyntel Woods Portland Restricted Free Agent
Doug Christie Sacramento Free Agent
Ricky Minard Sacramento Free Agent
Greg Ostertag Sacramento Free Agent
Darius Songaila Sacramento Free Agent
Robert Horry San Antonio Free Agent
Tony Parker San Antonio Free Agent
James Thomas San Antonio Free Agent
Antonio Daniels Seattle Free Agent
Ibrahim Kutluay Seattle Free Agent
Vladimir Radmanovic Seattle Free Agent
David Young Seattle Free Agent
Lamond Murray Toronto Free Agent
Pape Sow Toronto Free Agent
Loren Woods Toronto Free Agent
Curtis Borchardt Utah Restricted Free Agent
Jarron Collins Utah Free Agent
Matt Harpring Utah Free Agent
Andrei Kirilenko Utah Free Agent
Raul Lopez Utah Restricted Free Agent
Kwame Brown Washington Free Agent
Juan Dixon Washington Restricted Free Agent
Brendan Haywood Washington Free Agent
Jared Jeffries Washington Restricted Free Agent
Mac
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10/22/2004  7:53 PM
I think NY has a good shot at Cato. 4 year MLE this summer.

With these bigs' contracts expiring this season: BWallace, Yao, Haywood, KBrown, Chandler, Curry, Dalembert, Stoudamire, Kirilenko, Gooden, Olowakandi, Nene, Murphy ...

I hope NY takes a shot at N'Diaye & Haywood. Maybe Sweetney for Haywood straight up?
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