SupremeCommander wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:I'm pretty much ignorant on these prospects but I'd like someone who plays both ends of the floor.

He was an All-American selection, received the Karl Malone Award (top power forward), and the Naismith College Basketball Player Of The Year. He’s a high motor player and maybe he has extra to give to Knox

Have only seen the highlights but his offense look very good; explosive and a stretch 4 for sure. Strength down low is not so good and he probably makes Amare look good on defense.

He may be one of those picks like Frye that explode out of the gate and generate some ESPN highlights, and he would certainly surpass Frye in every way in that regard. Pump up his value and immediately send elsewhere when you can.

Can't see him on a deep playoff team unless you got defenders around him

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

Yeah, watching that video his defense looks unfixable as it's physical AND mental- terrible hip movement, terrible footwork, terrible lateral speed, terrible lower leg strength, terrible instincts, terrible fundamentals. His defense isn't just bad, it's an absolute abomination

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

Its pretty hard to watch this, it will take alot of patience to make him into a serviceable defender based on the video.

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

Welpee wrote:Couple of other items about Toppin, I think he's one of those late bloomers who did a prep year after high school and red shirted his freshman year of college. I think he also had a late growth spurt. Do you think those factors could impact his lack of defense at his point of his career?

It's the opposite. Obi had an extra 2 years of coaching and he STILL couldn't learn defense