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Knicks considering all options for PG, will consider trading for Ball, Bertans is in their radar.
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Jimbo5
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8/26/2020  5:20 PM
It seems like anther former Lakers lottery may find his way to the knick, reports says knick might consider another non-shooter at point. Maybe its a buy low situation or it shows how much they believe in the development staff they have assemble, maybe the former, if its the latter then i guess, that means they are confident in developing Franks shooting and wont look for a new PG.

Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason, but just like FVV, other teams like the suns and the hawks will be aggressively trying to sign him.

Im not sure i feel with Lonzo, there might be hope with his shooting as shown by his performance before the bubble, i guess if the price is right, DSJ and second rounders or the second of the Mav's 1st round pick?

Im happy if we can get Bertans here

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jskinny35
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8/26/2020  11:42 PM
I'd prefer Lonzo for a fair trade rather than sacrifice more assets for LaMelo... at least we know Lonzo plays fast, defends and has shown improvement with his outside shot.
smackeddog
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8/27/2020  3:13 AM
Jimbo5 wrote:It seems like anther former Lakers lottery may find his way to the knick, reports says knick might consider another non-shooter at point. Maybe its a buy low situation or it shows how much they believe in the development staff they have assemble, maybe the former, if its the latter then i guess, that means they are confident in developing Franks shooting and wont look for a new PG.

Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason, but just like FVV, other teams like the suns and the hawks will be aggressively trying to sign him.

Im not sure i feel with Lonzo, there might be hope with his shooting as shown by his performance before the bubble, i guess if the price is right, DSJ and second rounders or the second of the Mav's 1st round pick?

Im happy if we can get Bertans here

He shot 37.5% from 3 tis season, his shot starting going in

Jimbo5
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8/27/2020  6:55 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Jimbo5 wrote:It seems like anther former Lakers lottery may find his way to the knick, reports says knick might consider another non-shooter at point. Maybe its a buy low situation or it shows how much they believe in the development staff they have assemble, maybe the former, if its the latter then i guess, that means they are confident in developing Franks shooting and wont look for a new PG.

Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason, but just like FVV, other teams like the suns and the hawks will be aggressively trying to sign him.

Im not sure i feel with Lonzo, there might be hope with his shooting as shown by his performance before the bubble, i guess if the price is right, DSJ and second rounders or the second of the Mav's 1st round pick?

Im happy if we can get Bertans here

He shot 37.5% from 3 tis season, his shot starting going in

Shooting 37.5% during the season is a big improvement. I think at the very least it can tell us the he can improve his shot, he just have to work on his consistency. If we were to trade for him what is the maximum offer we are willing to part with for him?

smackeddog
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8/27/2020  12:47 PM
Jimbo5 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Jimbo5 wrote:It seems like anther former Lakers lottery may find his way to the knick, reports says knick might consider another non-shooter at point. Maybe its a buy low situation or it shows how much they believe in the development staff they have assemble, maybe the former, if its the latter then i guess, that means they are confident in developing Franks shooting and wont look for a new PG.

Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason, but just like FVV, other teams like the suns and the hawks will be aggressively trying to sign him.

Im not sure i feel with Lonzo, there might be hope with his shooting as shown by his performance before the bubble, i guess if the price is right, DSJ and second rounders or the second of the Mav's 1st round pick?

Im happy if we can get Bertans here

He shot 37.5% from 3 tis season, his shot starting going in

Shooting 37.5% during the season is a big improvement. I think at the very least it can tell us the he can improve his shot, he just have to work on his consistency. If we were to trade for him what is the maximum offer we are willing to part with for him?

I like that his shot has improved every year, though he is very streaky and his FT shooting concerns me (50% or whatever it is is ominous for someone developing into a reasonable shooter). Good 3 point percentage this year, though I'm not fully confident t he can maintain it yet (if he does this next season, then I think we'll have a better idea. He was a good defender before he moved to the Pelicans, and a very good passer every year. Injury prone though. I said maybe he might be a bit like Jason Kidd in another thread (remember Kidd use to be a woeful shooter until his latter seasons).

I'm definitely interested in him, because we don't have many options and I think he has potential. I wouldn't offer much for him though- only want him if he can be had cheaply. Pelicans have to max out Ingram, and maybe want more of a shooter at PG, maybe they have no intention of keeping Ball so will eb looking to dump him- who knows!

TripleThreat
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8/28/2020  5:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2020  5:53 PM
Jimbo5 wrote:Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason


Doing the rough math in my head, I suspect Bertans would only garner Knicks interest as a sign and trade. The AAV would be 12-13 million and it would be a probable 3 year deal with a team option with buyout for a 4th year.

Perry signed a lot of those power forwards a year ago for the purpose of seeing if they could be come salary filler in a trade.

Given trends in the college game ( even though we don't know when college ball comes back) I'd say to avoid signing Bertans. Shooting is valued, but we are edging into a new generation of upcoming players where long range shooting was seen as the new normal for every prospect. Case in point, Jason Giambi's dad wanted him to hit left handed ( despite being a right handed thrower) because lefty hitters, as well as LHP, were so scarce in MLB during Giambi's childhood. Which is why you'd see guys like Dave Parker last so long at the end of their career. When Giambi reached the show, the proliferation of switch hitters and lefty batters increased as Giambi's dad was not the only one to see the trend. When Steph Curry broke out and was seen as a weapon, that started the clock on younger generations and their coaches prizing long range shooting in a different way. The league will start to see a shift in good shooters as the rule and not the exception.

On a 3 to 4 year deal, Bertans bread and butter could be devalued as a league trend half way through his deal. Not devalued on the court, but in terms of ever increasing supply of effective long range shooters in each successive draft.

stanleybostitch
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8/28/2020  9:21 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
Jimbo5 wrote:Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason


Doing the rough math in my head, I suspect Bertans would only garner Knicks interest as a sign and trade. The AAV would be 12-13 million and it would be a probable 3 year deal with a team option with buyout for a 4th year.

Perry signed a lot of those power forwards a year ago for the purpose of seeing if they could be come salary filler in a trade.

Given trends in the college game ( even though we don't know when college ball comes back) I'd say to avoid signing Bertans. Shooting is valued, but we are edging into a new generation of upcoming players where long range shooting was seen as the new normal for every prospect. Case in point, Jason Giambi's dad wanted him to hit left handed ( despite being a right handed thrower) because lefty hitters, as well as LHP, were so scarce in MLB during Giambi's childhood. Which is why you'd see guys like Dave Parker last so long at the end of their career. When Giambi reached the show, the proliferation of switch hitters and lefty batters increased as Giambi's dad was not the only one to see the trend. When Steph Curry broke out and was seen as a weapon, that started the clock on younger generations and their coaches prizing long range shooting in a different way. The league will start to see a shift in good shooters as the rule and not the exception.

On a 3 to 4 year deal, Bertans bread and butter could be devalued as a league trend half way through his deal. Not devalued on the court, but in terms of ever increasing supply of effective long range shooters in each successive draft.

So what's the next trend that will become a differentiator and young kids will adopt? Defense. But then we'll have traded away our one elite defender in Frank if some on this board have their way, b/c at 22 Frank should be jettisoned for spare change and a bag of balls.

The new new core: Randle, RJ, IQ. Maybe Mitch. Future pick. Future trade. Future FA.
TripleThreat
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8/28/2020  9:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/28/2020  9:56 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:So what's the next trend that will become a differentiator and young kids will adopt? Defense. But then we'll have traded away our one elite defender in Frank if some on this board have their way, b/c at 22 Frank should be jettisoned for spare change and a bag of balls.


It's a good question and a fair one.

If we look at classic MoreyBall and scoring on three efficient levels, I'd say free throw shooting.

The refs massaging late game dynamics to push ratings, extend playoff series and protect the most marketable superstars means there is a high value on a prospects ability to sell contact. The right way to jump into a defender and basically play for a whistle is an art form. However the problem is most prospects will not have that explosive first step nor athleticism to consistently exploit this like a James Harden. Free throw shooting however is a different animal. If anyone could get NBA teams to make just 5-6 more free throws a game guaranteed against their rosters averaged out over time free throw shooting, that person could be paid 10 million a year as a specialized coach.

Consider how much more dominant that Lakers run would have been if Shaq could have converted 2-3 more free throws a game.

Of course there's a relationship between free throw shooting and projecting a prospects chances to be a functional/good/elite long range NBA shooter. But the pathway is different. Shots at the rim for wings/attack guards is reliant on consistent penetration. Three point shots have to factor in variance depending on what stage of the game. (Fatigue/attrition impacts mechanics/form) Also streak shooting is a reality from behind the arc. Free throw shooting however happens almost in a vacuum. Much of it is mental along with consistency.

The pathway to defense is still efficient offense. A player who takes better shots and understands floor spacing and how to keep the ball moving effectively is saving energy. This can be allocated to defense. This was the bane of Melo. All that bull**** jab stepping for a long two on poor shot selection against two defenders while freezing his teamamates out was a waste of energy. That along with poor conditioning plus lack of mental commitment left him nothing for defense.

The basic physics behind the "Granny Free Throw", esp for big men, is sound. Part of the issue was Rick Barry being a general ******* and it's biggest proponent. And I know, like Shaq, many don't like how it looks, but MoreyBall is a really ugly soul draining way to play and watch basketball so I don't see the same apprehension as in the past. The analytics/efficiency movement has taken a lot of the ego out of how players produce.

But, let me pick your brain for a minute. Do you see any variations in defense ( overall ,on ball, team, etc) that you will see as a differentiator?

TripleThreat
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8/28/2020  10:13 PM


Jimbo5
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8/29/2020  11:32 AM
A bleacher report trade proposal for the knicks to get the number 2:

Golden state gets 2020 #8, 2021 Mavs pick and Reggie Bullock

Knicks get 2020 #2 and Jordan Poole.

A part of me is ok with this but with the luck KP is having with his legs, the mavs pick might be better tham the current projections around the 20s spot. Will this be a trade worth doing? Will this even be enough for golden state?

stanleybostitch
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8/29/2020  11:43 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/29/2020  11:45 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:So what's the next trend that will become a differentiator and young kids will adopt? Defense. But then we'll have traded away our one elite defender in Frank if some on this board have their way, b/c at 22 Frank should be jettisoned for spare change and a bag of balls.


It's a good question and a fair one.

If we look at classic MoreyBall and scoring on three efficient levels, I'd say free throw shooting.

...

But, let me pick your brain for a minute. Do you see any variations in defense ( overall ,on ball, team, etc) that you will see as a differentiator?

I'm not a savvy enough basketball mind to give this a proper answer, but from my fan seat, I think on ball, man defense is the key to stopping the Harden's of the world and we'll see more effort put into countering the step-backs and dribble-drives. Along with this, perimeter defense is the logical next evolution to better defend the 3. Frank does all this at an elite level _at 22yrs old_, and given he also has a very sweet stroke (nothing broken ala Fultz), it's just a matter of time and confidence to where he's a 15/5 machine that gives you the edge end of game with his D. And he makes everyone around him better. He's a building block.

The new new core: Randle, RJ, IQ. Maybe Mitch. Future pick. Future trade. Future FA.
smackeddog
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8/29/2020  1:43 PM
Jimbo5 wrote:A bleacher report trade proposal for the knicks to get the number 2:

Golden state gets 2020 #8, 2021 Mavs pick and Reggie Bullock

Knicks get 2020 #2 and Jordan Poole.

A part of me is ok with this but with the luck KP is having with his legs, the mavs pick might be better tham the current projections around the 20s spot. Will this be a trade worth doing? Will this even be enough for golden state?

The plan seems to be the 2021 and keeping the assets to move up in that draft (if necessary). I'd rather move up in that draft than this one.

GustavBahler
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8/30/2020  11:33 PM
Been hoping the Knicks trade for Ball since he was in LA. Believe he's a glue guy who can also run the offense, if he has to. We havent had a real halfcourt offense in a while, except for Rose calling his own number. Ball brings a high BBall IQ and plays D as well.
Philc1
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9/12/2020  11:13 PM
Jimbo5 wrote:A bleacher report trade proposal for the knicks to get the number 2:

Golden state gets 2020 #8, 2021 Mavs pick and Reggie Bullock

Knicks get 2020 #2 and Jordan Poole.

A part of me is ok with this but with the luck KP is having with his legs, the mavs pick might be better tham the current projections around the 20s spot. Will this be a trade worth doing? Will this even be enough for golden state?

Stay put at 8 and draft Vassell or Nesmith. Only player I would trade up for is the Israeli kid

smackeddog
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9/13/2020  4:06 AM
Jonathan Macri implies the reports that we were after Bertans were BS from his agent, and that we won’t be
TPercy
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9/13/2020  11:41 AM
I know that Lonzo is the better 3pt shooter but what would we be giving here and would he be a worthwhile upgrade over Payton?
The Future is Bright!
fwk00
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9/13/2020  11:54 AM
The Knicks will be able to draft Ball at eight. Please stop with the, let's choose at #2. If the Knicks have a Jones for Ball then trade for Ball with a team that drafts him.

Seems to me that family members write these trade up posts so that Ball or whoever they advocate for will make more money and cost the Knicks more in cap space for years.

Ball is not some hot commodity. There are enough PGs in this draft to stock half the league and everyone of they beside Ball doesn't have a family cult to contend with.

We may be able to draft Ball at 27.

HofstraBBall
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9/13/2020  12:18 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Jimbo5 wrote:It seems like anther former Lakers lottery may find his way to the knick, reports says knick might consider another non-shooter at point. Maybe its a buy low situation or it shows how much they believe in the development staff they have assemble, maybe the former, if its the latter then i guess, that means they are confident in developing Franks shooting and wont look for a new PG.

Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason, but just like FVV, other teams like the suns and the hawks will be aggressively trying to sign him.

Im not sure i feel with Lonzo, there might be hope with his shooting as shown by his performance before the bubble, i guess if the price is right, DSJ and second rounders or the second of the Mav's 1st round pick?

Im happy if we can get Bertans here

He shot 37.5% from 3 tis season, his shot starting going in

Bertans is an interesting topic. Seems like a guy that teams that do not have them want but teams that do have him just are not fighting to keep. Think it comes down to price. Hopefully the Knicks do not repeat their past and pay the hyped up price for someone that, once you get past the shinny appearance, may just turn out to be a limited role player.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
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9/13/2020  12:42 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Jimbo5 wrote:Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason


Doing the rough math in my head, I suspect Bertans would only garner Knicks interest as a sign and trade. The AAV would be 12-13 million and it would be a probable 3 year deal with a team option with buyout for a 4th year.

Perry signed a lot of those power forwards a year ago for the purpose of seeing if they could be come salary filler in a trade.

Given trends in the college game ( even though we don't know when college ball comes back) I'd say to avoid signing Bertans. Shooting is valued, but we are edging into a new generation of upcoming players where long range shooting was seen as the new normal for every prospect. Case in point, Jason Giambi's dad wanted him to hit left handed ( despite being a right handed thrower) because lefty hitters, as well as LHP, were so scarce in MLB during Giambi's childhood. Which is why you'd see guys like Dave Parker last so long at the end of their career. When Giambi reached the show, the proliferation of switch hitters and lefty batters increased as Giambi's dad was not the only one to see the trend. When Steph Curry broke out and was seen as a weapon, that started the clock on younger generations and their coaches prizing long range shooting in a different way. The league will start to see a shift in good shooters as the rule and not the exception.

On a 3 to 4 year deal, Bertans bread and butter could be devalued as a league trend half way through his deal. Not devalued on the court, but in terms of ever increasing supply of effective long range shooters in each successive draft.

So what's the next trend that will become a differentiator and young kids will adopt? Defense. But then we'll have traded away our one elite defender in Frank if some on this board have their way, b/c at 22 Frank should be jettisoned for spare change and a bag of balls.

Frank fits one half of what the current and what i feel will be the trend in the foreseeable future. Combo guards/players that are athletic and can defend, play multiple positions and shoot the three. Feel it has been the goal for most teams since the success shown by Golden State. If you look at some of the most successful teams currently, they all have players that can play multiple positions. They all have athletic rosters that play fast and can shoot the three. They typically have three or four athletic, long, good scoring players on the floor at all times. Reason why I feel that we should be targeting those type of players in the draft and FA and stop focusing on the need for a average traditional PG. Feel the focus should be on adding athletic multi dimensional 6'6 to 6'9 guys that can also shoot the ball or play at a high speed. Reason why I like guys like Toppin, Vassell, Okoro, Stanley, Precious, Stewart and Williams over some of the PG's in the draft. And why I would prefer the same formula be used in FA over a guy like Bertans. Now if your able to find the kid that also has or can develop a consistent 3pt shot, then that's a superstar in the current and future NBA.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
KnickDanger
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9/13/2020  1:01 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Jimbo5 wrote:It seems like anther former Lakers lottery may find his way to the knick, reports says knick might consider another non-shooter at point. Maybe its a buy low situation or it shows how much they believe in the development staff they have assemble, maybe the former, if its the latter then i guess, that means they are confident in developing Franks shooting and wont look for a new PG.

Its expected the the knick will go after Bertans in the offseason, but just like FVV, other teams like the suns and the hawks will be aggressively trying to sign him.

Im not sure i feel with Lonzo, there might be hope with his shooting as shown by his performance before the bubble, i guess if the price is right, DSJ and second rounders or the second of the Mav's 1st round pick?

Im happy if we can get Bertans here

He shot 37.5% from 3 tis season, his shot starting going in

Bertans is an interesting topic. Seems like a guy that teams that do not have them want but teams that do have him just are not fighting to keep. Think it comes down to price. Hopefully the Knicks do not repeat their past and pay the hyped up price for someone that, once you get past the shinny appearance, may just turn out to be a limited role player.

This is where I hope all the promising additions to scouting, coaching, FO pay off. That we have some form of intelligence out there beating the bushes and figuring what constitutes good moneyball. And then bringing it together. I hope!

Knicks considering all options for PG, will consider trading for Ball, Bertans is in their radar.

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