That means that this coming year is unlikely, absent a disgruntled player demanding a trade, for the Knicks to accumulate a top 10 player. To be competitive, you seem to need two top 20 guys, maybe 2 top 10. And supporting cast. So, I don’t think the Thibs hiring changes the personnel on the court dramatically this season. I think you will see baby steps. If a move comes, I am
certain they will pounce, but again unless you are pulling AD in free agency and then finding a top 20 running mate, this will be another transitional year.

They don’t have the horsepower to get up that hill.

EwingsGlass wrote:To be competitive, you seem to need two top 20 guys, maybe 2 top 10. And supporting cast.

To do this, you need to make the money work. To make the money work, you need the Bird Rights to nearly every key player on your roster. To achieve this, you need to draft those players. At most, with close to zero margin of error against your cap situation, a team could fit maybe one high profile heavily paid player in free agency coming in without his Bird Rights. But you are talking a team working close to perfectly against their cap for 2-3 seasons BEFORE even said elite player would hit free agency. You are asking a team to operate at a standard that is unrealistic to the actual marketplace environment.

You need to win in the draft and you need to do it over a period of several years back to back. Building through the draft is mind numbingly slow.

Chris Paul went to the Clippers. The trade involved basically 4 first round picks previously used at various stages by the Clippers. The asset base to build that Blake/Paul short run for the Clippers cost them about a decade worth of asset building. A decade is a long ****ing time.

The fastest the Knicks could covert to a contender is 6-7 years. With basically no margin of error.

Here is where the Knicks can help themselves. If the game ever gets back to "normal", we are looking at summer of 2022 at the earliest. Maybe. A big maybe. Never before in the modern NBA era has there been a more advantageous time to be a cash rich team. This is a massive advantage that can work to the Knicks benefit for the next few years. I'm not talking raw open cap space, I am talking the ability to outspend every other team outside of the roster/salary cap.

Also the mid to late 2nd round and UDFA, teams that can pour more resources into scouting/analytics/outreach will have a huge leg up where things like workouts and the interview process would help some fringe prospects move up the boards. There will be more untapped back end value potential for the Knicks to exploit. If they have the infrastructure and logistics to make it happen (there is a reason Leon Rose is hiring an entire calculator brigade for the team)

6-7 years. That's how long it will probably take. Thibs will last probably 2-3 years before getting fired. If the Knicks got elite free agents ( they won't but this is for the sake of discussion), and they didn't want Thibs as coach, he'd be fired. So I don't know why people are so hung up on Thibs. No matter who the Knicks hired, they would likely be fired in 2-3 years anyway.

I see it happen all the time on this board. If the Knicks do X, then Y, then Z, all in a span of 14 months, then they can be a contender a year! Yeah, no, it doesn't work like that. Look at all the teams who are successful now, then look deep into their personnel and the cost in assets to get to that point. You'll see roots that span 5 years, 8 years, a decade. It's a long painful process. No shortcuts.

Sangfroid wrote:This year is about getting our house in order. No sensational trades, no blockbuster FA signings. Just good ol' fashion housework. Finding out who's gonna stick, and who's going. The establishment of that famous "culture" that we clamor for. In the 2 years of Fiz/Miller, NOTHING has been established. Hopefully Thibs, along with our front office have some vision of where/how to take the team, and we see signs of improvement.

I agree. While you always want to keep your ears open, the team really just needs to focus on working the young guys. Thibbs needs to coach them up, and the front office needs to send the message that we believe in you, and if we are going to win, then we are going to win with you. Stop star chasing. The only guys I would look to sign would be J. Grant, Fred VanVleet, or Brandon Ingram, and I would pass on VanVleet if we draft a PG this year. Grant and Ingram are both young and would fill the void at SF with a guy who can defend and hit an open three. If we don't draft a point, then VanVleet is a guy young enough to grow with the team who would be a solid compliment to RJ. Beyond those three guys, we should stand pat.

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:This year is about getting our house in order. No sensational trades, no blockbuster FA signings. Just good ol' fashion housework. Finding out who's gonna stick, and who's going. The establishment of that famous "culture" that we clamor for. In the 2 years of Fiz/Miller, NOTHING has been established. Hopefully Thibs, along with our front office have some vision of where/how to take the team, and we see signs of improvement.

I agree. While you always want to keep your ears open, the team really just needs to focus on working the young guys. Thibbs needs to coach them up, and the front office needs to send the message that we believe in you, and if we are going to win, then we are going to win with you. Stop star chasing. The only guys I would look to sign would be J. Grant, Fred VanVleet, or Brandon Ingram, and I would pass on VanVleet if we draft a PG this year. Grant and Ingram are both young and would fill the void at SF with a guy who can defend and hit an open three. If we don't draft a point, then VanVleet is a guy young enough to grow with the team who would be a solid compliment to RJ. Beyond those three guys, we should stand pat.

oh Jerami Grant, I like that. I wonder how much Denver values him, they have a lot of guys signed and with Michael Porter on the roster I wonder what they would offer him.

And what would the Knicks offer a defender who can shoot and play SF and PF in small ball lineup? Seems solid from 3. Thib's new Luol Deng.

Jerami is a guy who I could see the Knicks signing.

I like Grant but is he a high enough volume 3pt shooter for a stretch 4? He's probably fine if we put someone like Joe Harris next to him. But need to keep the 3pt shooting issue in mind. Otherwise he's a great option.

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:This year is about getting our house in order. No sensational trades, no blockbuster FA signings. Just good ol' fashion housework. Finding out who's gonna stick, and who's going. The establishment of that famous "culture" that we clamor for. In the 2 years of Fiz/Miller, NOTHING has been established. Hopefully Thibs, along with our front office have some vision of where/how to take the team, and we see signs of improvement.

I agree. While you always want to keep your ears open, the team really just needs to focus on working the young guys. Thibbs needs to coach them up, and the front office needs to send the message that we believe in you, and if we are going to win, then we are going to win with you. Stop star chasing. The only guys I would look to sign would be J. Grant, Fred VanVleet, or Brandon Ingram, and I would pass on VanVleet if we draft a PG this year. Grant and Ingram are both young and would fill the void at SF with a guy who can defend and hit an open three. If we don't draft a point, then VanVleet is a guy young enough to grow with the team who would be a solid compliment to RJ. Beyond those three guys, we should stand pat.

oh Jerami Grant, I like that. I wonder how much Denver values him, they have a lot of guys signed and with Michael Porter on the roster I wonder what they would offer him.

And what would the Knicks offer a defender who can shoot and play SF and PF in small ball lineup? Seems solid from 3. Thib's new Luol Deng.

Jerami is a guy who I could see the Knicks signing.

I like Grant but is he a high enough volume 3pt shooter for a stretch 4? He's probably fine if we put someone like Joe Harris next to him. But need to keep the 3pt shooting issue in mind. Otherwise he's a great option.

I dont understand your premise, "high enough volume shooter". Why is that the need? The Knicks obviously need shooters, no idea why they need a volume shooter for this type of role or player. Also, this draft is full of decent 3 point shooter for SF/SG, so I'm not looking to solve the problem with 1 signing. Grant's volume is also predicated on the system he is in and the players on his teams; Jerami took most of his shots from 3 point land and at the rim.

Dude is 26 and will be 27 next year, so his prime is right there. Plays multiple positions and spaces the floor with excellent defense. High end roll player IMO.

Agree about him being a younger player with great high end roll player upside. All i'm saying is we are most likely going into the year with Barrett and Robinson as 2 starters, neither of them good 3pt shooters. So adding more players who shoot and make a low rate of threes could be setting them up for failure. We need to bring the best out of our young players to develop them. So if you have a high volume 3pt shooter at PG (FVV or Haliburton for example) and at SF (Gallinari or Harris) than thats fine. But you can't surround Barrett and Mitch with guys who don't shoot and make a lot of threes or their best skills will be minimized. We can't be the worst 3pt shooting team in the league again in terms of makes. But again, i'm assuming this team is going to be built with them in mind, that's only an assumption and definitely not a guarantee.

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:This year is about getting our house in order. No sensational trades, no blockbuster FA signings. Just good ol' fashion housework. Finding out who's gonna stick, and who's going. The establishment of that famous "culture" that we clamor for. In the 2 years of Fiz/Miller, NOTHING has been established. Hopefully Thibs, along with our front office have some vision of where/how to take the team, and we see signs of improvement.

I agree. While you always want to keep your ears open, the team really just needs to focus on working the young guys. Thibbs needs to coach them up, and the front office needs to send the message that we believe in you, and if we are going to win, then we are going to win with you. Stop star chasing. The only guys I would look to sign would be J. Grant, Fred VanVleet, or Brandon Ingram, and I would pass on VanVleet if we draft a PG this year. Grant and Ingram are both young and would fill the void at SF with a guy who can defend and hit an open three. If we don't draft a point, then VanVleet is a guy young enough to grow with the team who would be a solid compliment to RJ. Beyond those three guys, we should stand pat.

oh Jerami Grant, I like that. I wonder how much Denver values him, they have a lot of guys signed and with Michael Porter on the roster I wonder what they would offer him.

And what would the Knicks offer a defender who can shoot and play SF and PF in small ball lineup? Seems solid from 3. Thib's new Luol Deng.

Jerami is a guy who I could see the Knicks signing.

I like Grant but is he a high enough volume 3pt shooter for a stretch 4? He's probably fine if we put someone like Joe Harris next to him. But need to keep the 3pt shooting issue in mind. Otherwise he's a great option.

I dont understand your premise, "high enough volume shooter". Why is that the need? The Knicks obviously need shooters, no idea why they need a volume shooter for this type of role or player. Also, this draft is full of decent 3 point shooter for SF/SG, so I'm not looking to solve the problem with 1 signing. Grant's volume is also predicated on the system he is in and the players on his teams; Jerami took most of his shots from 3 point land and at the rim.

Dude is 26 and will be 27 next year, so his prime is right there. Plays multiple positions and spaces the floor with excellent defense. High end roll player IMO.

Agree about him being a younger player with great high end roll player upside. All i'm saying is we are most likely going into the year with Barrett and Robinson as 2 starters, neither of them good 3pt shooters. So adding more players who shoot and make a low rate of threes could be setting them up for failure. We need to bring the best out of our young players to develop them. So if you have a high volume 3pt shooter at PG (FVV or Haliburton for example) and at SF (Gallinari or Harris) than thats fine. But you can't surround Barrett and Mitch with guys who don't shoot and make a lot of threes or their best skills will be minimized. We can't be the worst 3pt shooting team in the league again in terms of makes. But again, i'm assuming this team is going to be built with them in mind, that's only an assumption and definitely not a guarantee.

That is the one reason you can't have them as starters. Unless they both have spent the last 4 months shooting 1500 jumpers per day, I don't see you playing a player significant minutes who cant shoot respectable from the perimeter. NOT IN THIS DAY & AGE

You know thibs is only playing 7 to 9 guys, he's not going into a season scratching his head for the first month and a half throwing a bunch of different rotations out there.

No more throw-it-on-the-wall and see if sticks bull sht line ups. AN ESTABLISH COACH IS GOING TO WANT TO DEAL WITH ESTABLISH PLAYERS, unless the young players are very talented like a wiggns, rose, Kat, noah, deng type...The young player we have don't come close to any of the names mention.

Well this was sort of my point to begin with; yes you can have them as starters if the other 3 players on the court are shooters. Barrett should have the ball in his hands a lot this year to create and Robinson is fine as center being a pick and roll finisher. So you must have 3 other players on the floor who can play off the ball. Melo, Gallinari, and Harris are 3 UFA who i bet the knicks work hard to sign 2 of them. All are good off-ball shooters. At PG you are likely going for FVV or CP3 if they don't draft a PG, or if they do it will be Haliburton or Cole Anthony (unless they trade up for Ball) who are both good outside shooters. And they will probably bring in a vet to pair with a rookie like Teague or Augustine. No more Payton in the lineup. Randle should be moved to 6th man if he is still on the roster. Frank is fine as a reserve combo guard. But you absolutely can build with Barrett and Mitch in the lineup with 3 above average 3pt shooters surrounding them. This is the NBA and you need guys that can shoot, but you don't need 5. I think 3 in the lineup is fine. Barrett will becoming respectable in time as well.

Knickfury11 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:This year is about getting our house in order. No sensational trades, no blockbuster FA signings. Just good ol' fashion housework. Finding out who's gonna stick, and who's going. The establishment of that famous "culture" that we clamor for. In the 2 years of Fiz/Miller, NOTHING has been established. Hopefully Thibs, along with our front office have some vision of where/how to take the team, and we see signs of improvement.

I agree. While you always want to keep your ears open, the team really just needs to focus on working the young guys. Thibbs needs to coach them up, and the front office needs to send the message that we believe in you, and if we are going to win, then we are going to win with you. Stop star chasing. The only guys I would look to sign would be J. Grant, Fred VanVleet, or Brandon Ingram, and I would pass on VanVleet if we draft a PG this year. Grant and Ingram are both young and would fill the void at SF with a guy who can defend and hit an open three. If we don't draft a point, then VanVleet is a guy young enough to grow with the team who would be a solid compliment to RJ. Beyond those three guys, we should stand pat.

oh Jerami Grant, I like that. I wonder how much Denver values him, they have a lot of guys signed and with Michael Porter on the roster I wonder what they would offer him.

And what would the Knicks offer a defender who can shoot and play SF and PF in small ball lineup? Seems solid from 3. Thib's new Luol Deng.

Jerami is a guy who I could see the Knicks signing.

I like Grant but is he a high enough volume 3pt shooter for a stretch 4? He's probably fine if we put someone like Joe Harris next to him. But need to keep the 3pt shooting issue in mind. Otherwise he's a great option.

I dont understand your premise, "high enough volume shooter". Why is that the need? The Knicks obviously need shooters, no idea why they need a volume shooter for this type of role or player. Also, this draft is full of decent 3 point shooter for SF/SG, so I'm not looking to solve the problem with 1 signing. Grant's volume is also predicated on the system he is in and the players on his teams; Jerami took most of his shots from 3 point land and at the rim.

Dude is 26 and will be 27 next year, so his prime is right there. Plays multiple positions and spaces the floor with excellent defense. High end roll player IMO.

Agree about him being a younger player with great high end roll player upside. All i'm saying is we are most likely going into the year with Barrett and Robinson as 2 starters, neither of them good 3pt shooters. So adding more players who shoot and make a low rate of threes could be setting them up for failure. We need to bring the best out of our young players to develop them. So if you have a high volume 3pt shooter at PG (FVV or Haliburton for example) and at SF (Gallinari or Harris) than thats fine. But you can't surround Barrett and Mitch with guys who don't shoot and make a lot of threes or their best skills will be minimized. We can't be the worst 3pt shooting team in the league again in terms of makes. But again, i'm assuming this team is going to be built with them in mind, that's only an assumption and definitely not a guarantee.

That is the one reason you can't have them as starters. Unless they both have spent the last 4 months shooting 1500 jumpers per day, I don't see you playing a player significant minutes who cant shoot respectable from the perimeter. NOT IN THIS DAY & AGE

You know thibs is only playing 7 to 9 guys, he's not going into a season scratching his head for the first month and a half throwing a bunch of different rotations out there.

No more throw-it-on-the-wall and see if sticks bull sht line ups. AN ESTABLISH COACH IS GOING TO WANT TO DEAL WITH ESTABLISH PLAYERS, unless the young players are very talented like a wiggns, rose, Kat, noah, deng type...The young player we have don't come close to any of the names mention.

Well this was sort of my point to begin with; yes you can have them as starters if the other 3 players on the court are shooters. Barrett should have the ball in his hands a lot this year to create and Robinson is fine as center being a pick and roll finisher. So you must have 3 other players on the floor who can play off the ball. Melo, Gallinari, and Harris are 3 UFA who i bet the knicks work hard to sign 2 of them. All are good off-ball shooters. At PG you are likely going for FVV or CP3 if they don't draft a PG, or if they do it will be Haliburton or Cole Anthony (unless they trade up for Ball) who are both good outside shooters. And they will probably bring in a vet to pair with a rookie like Teague or Augustine. No more Payton in the lineup. Randle should be moved to 6th man if he is still on the roster. Frank is fine as a reserve combo guard. But you absolutely can build with Barrett and Mitch in the lineup with 3 above average 3pt shooters surrounding them. This is the NBA and you need guys that can shoot, but you don't need 5. I think 3 in the lineup is fine. Barrett will becoming respectable in time as well.

Pure speculation, but I can see Thibs using / developing RJ similar to Jimmy Butler and bringing in a scoring pg. I’ve still got hope of landing Haliburton in the draft ( see him as the best all around pg ). How will Frankie pt be affected? Elite on the defensive end and Thibs be loving that!

Yeah I’ve always seen butler as a good goal for Barrett in terms of upside. And we are being a little hard on Barrett in this thread anyways. He’s not a non-shooter by any stretch. He’s capable of getting his 3pt shooting up to 35-36% very early in his career, which I’m sure he will with his work ethic. But he needs to be surrounded by shooters to maximize his potential as a big playmaking wing.

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:This year is about getting our house in order. No sensational trades, no blockbuster FA signings. Just good ol' fashion housework. Finding out who's gonna stick, and who's going. The establishment of that famous "culture" that we clamor for. In the 2 years of Fiz/Miller, NOTHING has been established. Hopefully Thibs, along with our front office have some vision of where/how to take the team, and we see signs of improvement.

I agree. While you always want to keep your ears open, the team really just needs to focus on working the young guys. Thibbs needs to coach them up, and the front office needs to send the message that we believe in you, and if we are going to win, then we are going to win with you. Stop star chasing. The only guys I would look to sign would be J. Grant, Fred VanVleet, or Brandon Ingram, and I would pass on VanVleet if we draft a PG this year. Grant and Ingram are both young and would fill the void at SF with a guy who can defend and hit an open three. If we don't draft a point, then VanVleet is a guy young enough to grow with the team who would be a solid compliment to RJ. Beyond those three guys, we should stand pat.

oh Jerami Grant, I like that. I wonder how much Denver values him, they have a lot of guys signed and with Michael Porter on the roster I wonder what they would offer him.

And what would the Knicks offer a defender who can shoot and play SF and PF in small ball lineup? Seems solid from 3. Thib's new Luol Deng.

Jerami is a guy who I could see the Knicks signing.

I like Grant but is he a high enough volume 3pt shooter for a stretch 4? He's probably fine if we put someone like Joe Harris next to him. But need to keep the 3pt shooting issue in mind. Otherwise he's a great option.

I dont understand your premise, "high enough volume shooter". Why is that the need? The Knicks obviously need shooters, no idea why they need a volume shooter for this type of role or player. Also, this draft is full of decent 3 point shooter for SF/SG, so I'm not looking to solve the problem with 1 signing. Grant's volume is also predicated on the system he is in and the players on his teams; Jerami took most of his shots from 3 point land and at the rim.

Dude is 26 and will be 27 next year, so his prime is right there. Plays multiple positions and spaces the floor with excellent defense. High end roll player IMO.

Agree about him being a younger player with great high end roll player upside. All i'm saying is we are most likely going into the year with Barrett and Robinson as 2 starters, neither of them good 3pt shooters. So adding more players who shoot and make a low rate of threes could be setting them up for failure. We need to bring the best out of our young players to develop them. So if you have a high volume 3pt shooter at PG (FVV or Haliburton for example) and at SF (Gallinari or Harris) than thats fine. But you can't surround Barrett and Mitch with guys who don't shoot and make a lot of threes or their best skills will be minimized. We can't be the worst 3pt shooting team in the league again in terms of makes. But again, i'm assuming this team is going to be built with them in mind, that's only an assumption and definitely not a guarantee.

Any Knicks team that the fan base gets behind is going to be built on defense. You add Grant, then you have above average defenders at the 1 (Frank), 3 (Grant), and 5 (Mitch). Barrett looks like he will at least be a solid defender, so really your only weak point is Randle, who should at least be average under Thibbs. Barrett and Randle are going to take plenty of shots. We need a SF who can space the floor and play defense. Grant is perfect in that role. He does not need to be a high volume shooter, we just need someone who can hit the shots the defense gives us. Knox and Iggy are SF scorers that you hopefully can groom into a role as instant offense off the bench. If the three guys I mentioned, Grant is the most realistic one we could get. Denver likes him, but I don’t think they are going to break the bank for him. If we could sign him to a $15-$16 mil per year deal, it might be enough for Denver to pass but still low enough that we can sign two max players in 2021 (if we trade Randle).

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:This year is about getting our house in order. No sensational trades, no blockbuster FA signings. Just good ol' fashion housework. Finding out who's gonna stick, and who's going. The establishment of that famous "culture" that we clamor for. In the 2 years of Fiz/Miller, NOTHING has been established. Hopefully Thibs, along with our front office have some vision of where/how to take the team, and we see signs of improvement.

I agree. While you always want to keep your ears open, the team really just needs to focus on working the young guys. Thibbs needs to coach them up, and the front office needs to send the message that we believe in you, and if we are going to win, then we are going to win with you. Stop star chasing. The only guys I would look to sign would be J. Grant, Fred VanVleet, or Brandon Ingram, and I would pass on VanVleet if we draft a PG this year. Grant and Ingram are both young and would fill the void at SF with a guy who can defend and hit an open three. If we don't draft a point, then VanVleet is a guy young enough to grow with the team who would be a solid compliment to RJ. Beyond those three guys, we should stand pat.

oh Jerami Grant, I like that. I wonder how much Denver values him, they have a lot of guys signed and with Michael Porter on the roster I wonder what they would offer him.

And what would the Knicks offer a defender who can shoot and play SF and PF in small ball lineup? Seems solid from 3. Thib's new Luol Deng.

Jerami is a guy who I could see the Knicks signing.

I like Grant but is he a high enough volume 3pt shooter for a stretch 4? He's probably fine if we put someone like Joe Harris next to him. But need to keep the 3pt shooting issue in mind. Otherwise he's a great option.

I dont understand your premise, "high enough volume shooter". Why is that the need? The Knicks obviously need shooters, no idea why they need a volume shooter for this type of role or player. Also, this draft is full of decent 3 point shooter for SF/SG, so I'm not looking to solve the problem with 1 signing. Grant's volume is also predicated on the system he is in and the players on his teams; Jerami took most of his shots from 3 point land and at the rim.

Dude is 26 and will be 27 next year, so his prime is right there. Plays multiple positions and spaces the floor with excellent defense. High end roll player IMO.

Agree about him being a younger player with great high end roll player upside. All i'm saying is we are most likely going into the year with Barrett and Robinson as 2 starters, neither of them good 3pt shooters. So adding more players who shoot and make a low rate of threes could be setting them up for failure. We need to bring the best out of our young players to develop them. So if you have a high volume 3pt shooter at PG (FVV or Haliburton for example) and at SF (Gallinari or Harris) than thats fine. But you can't surround Barrett and Mitch with guys who don't shoot and make a lot of threes or their best skills will be minimized. We can't be the worst 3pt shooting team in the league again in terms of makes. But again, i'm assuming this team is going to be built with them in mind, that's only an assumption and definitely not a guarantee.

Any Knicks team that the fan base gets behind is going to be built on defense. You add Grant, then you have above average defenders at the 1 (Frank), 3 (Grant), and 5 (Mitch). Barrett looks like he will at least be a solid defender, so really your only weak point is Randle, who should at least be average under Thibbs. Barrett and Randle are going to take plenty of shots. We need a SF who can space the floor and play defense. Grant is perfect in that role. He does not need to be a high volume shooter, we just need someone who can hit the shots the defense gives us. Knox and Iggy are SF scorers that you hopefully can groom into a role as instant offense off the bench. If the three guys I mentioned, Grant is the most realistic one we could get. Denver likes him, but I don’t think they are going to break the bank for him. If we could sign him to a $15-$16 mil per year deal, it might be enough for Denver to pass but still low enough that we can sign two max players in 2021 (if we trade Randle).

I like it.

Can't possibly go into next year with a lineup of Frank, Barrett, Grant, Randle, and Mitch, that is the poorest shooting lineup in the entire league by a mile. If you move Randle to the bench and add Gallinari or Joe Harris than you are at least moving in the right direction and still maintaining the defensive strength, although i don't see a scenario where Frank starts because we will likely draft a PG or sign one.