The three areas where New York struggles are simple to see: the roster, the front office, and the coaching structure.

Since the selection of Porzingis, the Knicks have had three straight lottery picks, and somehow, New York’s best young prospect is a second-round pick, Mitchell Robinson. Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox, and R.J. Barrett have all struggled notably in their rookie seasons. How bad?

Nalod wrote:https://theknickswall.com/knicks-organization-still-rock-bottom/

IF anyone is interested this is the blog that 1248 plagiarized and the rest of the paragraph that followed the stats:

Among first-year players who amassed at least 1,000 minutes in their rookie season over the last three years, the Knicks have three of the 15 worst rookie seasons, with Knox as the worst rookie season in that time span.

Both Knox and Ntilikina have struggled since their rookie seasons, and the hope is that Barrett can buck the same trend. However, neither Knox nor Ntilikina are shooting above 40% from the field, and both appear to be well short of living up to their lottery billing. Barrett has his own warts (and is also shooting below 40% from the floor), but there are some refined tools in his game that should assist him in the long run.

Part of the developmental issues comes from the lack of consistency at the head coaching spot. Jeff Hornacek and Kurt Rambis of a previous regime leaned on an outdated Triangle Offense. David Fizdale allowed players to run whatever system they wanted up until his firing, and interim coach was Mike Miller has largely eschewed youth players in lieu of veteran players, regardless of fit, in order to earn the head coaching position for next season.

In fairness to RJ Barrett I'd break down 5 or 10 game samples then compare. Kid is making progress and I would not lump him in with players 3 years in.

What is BPM? I took this from Basketball Reference:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html
Its Long. Its a few years old mind you. Let me offer a bit for you.:

Box Plus/Minus (BPM) is a box score-based metric for evaluating basketball players' quality and contribution to the team. It is the latest version of a stat previously called Advanced Statistical Plus/Minus; it is NOT a version of Adjusted Plus/Minus, which is a play-by-play regression metric.

BPM relies on a player's box score information and the team's overall performance to estimate a player's performance relative to league average. BPM is a per-100-possession stat, the same scale as Adjusted Plus/Minus: 0.0 is league average, +5 means the player is 5 points better than an average player over 100 possessions (which is about All-NBA level), -2 is replacement level, and -5 is really bad.

Note: BPM does not take into account playing time – it is purely a rate stat. Thus, Durant playing 79% of available minutes with a +8.8 BPM was overall slightly more valuable than LeBron's +8.9 BPM for 73% of the available minutes, and both of them were way more valuable than Chris Paul, who missed quite a few games. That playing time aspect is handled by Value over Replacement Player (VORP), which is discussed below.

BPM was created to intentionally only use information that is available historically, going back to 1973-74. More recently there has been more information gathered, both in box scores and via play-by-play, but in order to create a stat with historical usefulness, those stats have been ignored for BPM. In other words – it is possible to create a better stat than BPM for measuring players, but difficult to make a better one that can also be used historically.

There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

Its pages longer than that. Visit it if you want more.

Good tactic to make frank look bad by a metric to discount Defense contribution which is his strongest attribute. What else do miss in your linear demonstrations?

The Blog title that was plagiarized? "The Knicks, as an Organization, Are Still at Rock Bottom" by https://theknickswall.com/author/quentinhaynes/

He is a fairly prolific blogger on the Knicks Wall site. Props to his efforts. 1248, Im sure you figured plagiarizing another's work is better than flat out making shyt up but its actually pretty bad offense. Writers get fired for it. You think your clever.

There is a better way. Watch the games. Guess what, Knicks Suck. We all know this. The players on the list? All on bad teams. Your awesome!!!!

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

The three areas where New York struggles are simple to see: the roster, the front office, and the coaching structure.

Since the selection of Porzingis, the Knicks have had three straight lottery picks, and somehow, New York’s best young prospect is a second-round pick, Mitchell Robinson. Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox, and R.J. Barrett have all struggled notably in their rookie seasons. How bad?

4 players on this list, that's no coincidence

Notice most of the player there play on bad teams. These advanced stats will not favor players on bad teams. Ultimately our best prospects are RJ and Mitch, both have a chance to be high level starters. Ntilikina and Knox don't seem to have that same potential, as they both seem to lack the mental makeup. Hoping they can become good role players. If this group becomes 2 high level starters and 2 rotation players, that's not a bad thing.

4 19 year olds and we have 3. Coby White the other.
All on bad teams. Remarkable!!

I do feel like I see that in RJ though, so I hope he returns next season with a jump shot, can go right more and an improved free throw %.

Mitch has the tools, but needs more coaching as he didn't play college and probably dominated high school due to his size and athleticism

Dennis Smith Jr, Trier and Knox seems to have all the physical tools but are missing some combination of hunger, coaching/skill development, team play

Dotson, Frank, Payton, Morris, Taj all seem to play hard - just are maybe limited on talent

Unsure about Portis, Randle, Iggy, Bullock, Ellington, K.Allen

jskinny35 wrote:A big problem as I see it is we don't usually draft tough minded players (see Knox) when they are on the board. Now we're surprised 2-3 years later when the player with a known low motor, low IQ and no defense doesn't progress much? I get that talent is needed, but I would much rather draft the offensively challenged players that play hard on defense, and try to figure out how to add a Carmelo Anthony type to complement the team. It seems easier to turn a defensive player with a strong work ethic into a 2 way player then find an offensive type and expect that he'll start playing defense. It can happen, but it seems to go the other way more often.

Knox is the most recent example where we chose him b/c of potential and he reportedly looked great against Miles Bridges (who's 4 inches shorter) in a private workout. Since there were few homerun picks around our spot, I mention Mikal Bridges who is only a role player - but he hustles and plays his role well. You can play him in the 4th quarter because he plays defense. We prioritize potential over mental makeup and we'll continue to suck forever!

This is what happens when you draft young. Remember when you were that age? How many of your peers did you see goofing off, without a clue of the discipline it takes. We right off guys like Oladipo and Wiggins, then get surprised when it "clicks." Mikal came in older and led his team to championship? Knox came in too young from an underperforming Kentucky squad. We need to give it some time. That said, Knox does need to improve.

martin wrote:Ugh, just did a bit of research to see what picks Knicks have had.

I don't mean to suggest that Knicks are good at it but the pool of draft picks the Knicks HAVE had has been slim. Not having draft picks is also their fault.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-history/all/3/all/

Lottery picks over last 35 years:

1986 - Kenny Walker at #5.
1991 - Greg Anthony #12
2003 - Mike Sweetney #9
2005 - Channing Frye #8
2008 - Gallo #6
2009 - Jordan Hill #8
2015 - KP #4
2017 - Frank #8
2018 - Knox #9
2019 - RJ #3

Can't close the books on 21year olds. Issue is next year when frank and Dennis are restricted and are either kept or let walk.
Our guys are not Kwahi or Kobe. They are also on a bad team. We been thru this 100 times, there is no quick Fix. KP injury set us back 2 years. Nobody builds around 6 or later picks. You might get lucky but its rare. Frank and Kevin were 8th and 9th picks.

martin wrote:Ugh, just did a bit of research to see what picks Knicks have had.

I don't mean to suggest that Knicks are good at it but the pool of draft picks the Knicks HAVE had has been slim. Not having draft picks is also their fault.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-history/all/3/all/

Lottery picks over last 35 years:

1986 - Kenny Walker at #5.
1991 - Greg Anthony #12
2003 - Mike Sweetney #9
2005 - Channing Frye #8
2008 - Gallo #6
2009 - Jordan Hill #8
2015 - KP #4
2017 - Frank #8
2018 - Knox #9
2019 - RJ #3

35 yrs..10 lottery picks, and not one became an all star...wow

It is extremely difficult to develop in NYC, which is why I never had a problem of trading picks for "ready now" more establish players like a Sprewell or LJ. Players that you know have the work ethic and passion for winning and can shoot.

When fizdale said most of his young players are up all night playing "fortnight, call of duty and other addictive games" thats just additional distraction from all the other distractions playing in NY.

RJ does look like he has the best shot at becoming at least an all star, but we are going to have to put some really good players around him.

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:Ugh, just did a bit of research to see what picks Knicks have had.

I don't mean to suggest that Knicks are good at it but the pool of draft picks the Knicks HAVE had has been slim. Not having draft picks is also their fault.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-history/all/3/all/

Lottery picks over last 35 years:

1986 - Kenny Walker at #5.
1991 - Greg Anthony #12
2003 - Mike Sweetney #9
2005 - Channing Frye #8
2008 - Gallo #6
2009 - Jordan Hill #8
2015 - KP #4
2017 - Frank #8
2018 - Knox #9
2019 - RJ #3

35 yrs..10 lottery picks, and not one became an all star...wow

It is extremely difficult to develop in NYC, which is why I never had a problem of trading picks for "ready now" more establish players like a Sprewell or LJ. Players that you know have the work ethic and passion for winning and can shoot.

When fizdale said most of his young players are up all night playing "fortnight, call of duty and other addictive games" thats just additional distraction from all the other distractions playing in NY.

RJ does look like he has the best shot at becoming at least an all star, but we are going to have to put some really good players around him.

"Like LJ and Spree".........
LJ had an awful contract and a bad back. We got him because of it. Mostly the contract. Cap rules were different.
Objectively he was a shell of his former self as a knick. not even close. Look it up for accuracy:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsla02.html

Actually we lost that trade given the money we paid Larry:
Mase, look at his post Knick career:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/masonan01.html

LJ was great here and we have good memories. Maybe a bit clouded over the years.
Mase was traded cuz he was partying way too hard and he had to leave NYC. Truth is we kind of messed that one up.

Spree came cheap in my opinion but he came with baggage. A lot of baggage. He was also a pain in arse. He was worth the trouble. We forget about the trouble. He was given chances and was a good teammate. I don't care that he cursed out Dolan, I might do well to understand what his beef was. Did dolan reneg on resigning him? Knicks paid him very well after his suspension.
You forgot to mention trades like Marbury. Or Eddy. Or Dice. burning young assets or picks for established players. The ever long debate of "did we pay too much for Melo" and journey thru mediocrity. Your rather fond of the 54 win season. Its the best thing in your life"?
Wining make the heart grow fonder. 1248 the thing about those trades were those players came to good teams with core players already in place.
Knicks are not doing well but they are not compromising by trying to pull a starphuch.

Do the best you can drafting and developing. That’s the path to success. That said everyone reasonable knows that it’s difficult and there will be misses.