Look, did I like paying to go watch my team get embarrassed by a 1-5 team? Do I think the offense can run more PnR's? Do I think the offense has too much ISO and not enough motion? Hell yes. But to react like some two bit teenage child pissed off because his friends are going to make fun of him for rooting for a losing team is childish and short sighted. Does everyone have the right to bitch and complain....sure. But time for fans to go root for the Nets if they don't understand what a rebuild takes. And its lots of patience and giving young players/FA's some support and minutes to develop. And yes, it means giving a coach more than ONE year.

Here are the facts:
1) This team needs time to gel and play together.
2) Randle is a good player and will not be this bad all year. Needs to stop pressing.
3) We have seen progress on defense and have been in most games this year.
4) Unless we pick up someone like KI, Durant, Kawhi, Greek Freak, Curry, Harden etc, this rebuild will take giving players minutes to get some continuity and time to build chemistry.
5) The offense will improve as a coach sees each players strengths and short comings and can make adjustments.
6) Young players need time to develop and learn. Booing or replacing them after just one bad stint is not reasonable or constructive.
7) We have seen positive games in Morris, Portis, RJ, Payton, Frank etc. Coach should build on those and get others to get there as well

Biggest problem is that all this takes time and patience. Unfortunately, NYC, its fans, media just wont let this happen. There is always pressure on guys to win. Think this is what lead to Knicks giving up on youth movement and bringing on some broken Vets hoping they can save their jobs. As mentioned, I hate being this bad, but we have to ask what the real issue is and perhaps its starts from the fan base and its crazy expectations.

HofstraBBall wrote:Hilarious to come on here, and most forums, and see posts from the arm chair GM's and coaches. I think we are seeing why NY is a tough town to commit to a proper rebuild. Most are calling for the firing of a coach six games into the season. Ignoring that he had D League level and 1st or 2nd year guys his first year and now have a mixture of B level NBA talent and young players looking to fit in. Not to mention that we have 9 new faces.
Some were booing a decent young pick up with high athletic ceiling just after 20 minutes into the start of his first full year here. Only his third at 21 years old. In spite of whining year after year that we need an athletic PG that can push pace. Guess that only goes for kids that can be All Start level at PG within their first 2 weeks as Knicks. Now some are asking for Frank, who had a decent first game and **** the bed in his second game as a starter, to be replaced by some no future, no outside shooting knee jerk reaction, in Rubio. Brilliant, we are looking for a PG that can shoot and we want ****ing Rubio? SMH

Look, did I like paying to go watch my team get embarrassed by a 1-5 team? Do I think the offense can run more PnR's? Do I think the offense has too much ISO and not enough motion? Hell yes. But to react like some two bit teenage child pissed off because his friends are going to make fun of him for rooting for a losing team is childish and short sighted. Does everyone have the right to bitch and complain....sure. But time for fans to go root for the Nets if they don't understand what a rebuild takes. And its lots of patience and giving young players/FA's some support and minutes to develop. And yes, it means giving a coach more than ONE year.

Here are the facts:
1) This team needs time to gel and play together.
2) Randle is a good player and will not be this bad all year. Needs to stop pressing.
3) We have seen progress on defense and have been in most games this year.
4) Unless we pick up someone like KI, Durant, Kawhi, Greek Freak, Curry, Harden etc, this rebuild will take giving players minutes to get some continuity and time to build chemistry.
5) The offense will improve as a coach sees each players strengths and short comings and can make adjustments.
6) Young players need time to develop and learn. Booing or replacing them after just one bad stint is not reasonable or constructive.
7) We have seen positive games in Morris, Portis, RJ, Payton, Frank etc. Coach should build on those and get others to get there as well

Biggest problem is that all this takes time and patience. Unfortunately, NYC, its fans, media just wont let this happen. There is always pressure on guys to win. Think this is what lead to Knicks giving up on youth movement and bringing on some broken Vets hoping they can save their jobs. As mentioned, I hate being this bad, but we have to ask what the real issue is and perhaps its starts from the fan base and its crazy expectations.

franco12 wrote:

houston20 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Hilarious to come on here, and most forums, and see posts from the arm chair GM's and coaches. I think we are seeing why NY is a tough town to commit to a proper rebuild. Most are calling for the firing of a coach six games into the season. Ignoring that he had D League level and 1st or 2nd year guys his first year and now have a mixture of B level NBA talent and young players looking to fit in. Not to mention that we have 9 new faces.
Some were booing a decent young pick up with high athletic ceiling just after 20 minutes into the start of his first full year here. Only his third at 21 years old. In spite of whining year after year that we need an athletic PG that can push pace. Guess that only goes for kids that can be All Start level at PG within their first 2 weeks as Knicks. Now some are asking for Frank, who had a decent first game and **** the bed in his second game as a starter, to be replaced by some no future, no outside shooting knee jerk reaction, in Rubio. Brilliant, we are looking for a PG that can shoot and we want ****ing Rubio? SMH

Look, did I like paying to go watch my team get embarrassed by a 1-5 team? Do I think the offense can run more PnR's? Do I think the offense has too much ISO and not enough motion? Hell yes. But to react like some two bit teenage child pissed off because his friends are going to make fun of him for rooting for a losing team is childish and short sighted. Does everyone have the right to bitch and complain....sure. But time for fans to go root for the Nets if they don't understand what a rebuild takes. And its lots of patience and giving young players/FA's some support and minutes to develop. And yes, it means giving a coach more than ONE year.

Here are the facts:
1) This team needs time to gel and play together.
2) Randle is a good player and will not be this bad all year. Needs to stop pressing.
3) We have seen progress on defense and have been in most games this year.
4) Unless we pick up someone like KI, Durant, Kawhi, Greek Freak, Curry, Harden etc, this rebuild will take giving players minutes to get some continuity and time to build chemistry.
5) The offense will improve as a coach sees each players strengths and short comings and can make adjustments.
6) Young players need time to develop and learn. Booing or replacing them after just one bad stint is not reasonable or constructive.
7) We have seen positive games in Morris, Portis, RJ, Payton, Frank etc. Coach should build on those and get others to get there as well

Biggest problem is that all this takes time and patience. Unfortunately, NYC, its fans, media just wont let this happen. There is always pressure on guys to win. Think this is what lead to Knicks giving up on youth movement and bringing on some broken Vets hoping they can save their jobs. As mentioned, I hate being this bad, but we have to ask what the real issue is and perhaps its starts from the fan base and its crazy expectations.

The biggest problem is the knicks took the point guard position for granted and screwed up badly believing in dsj, payton, and frank burned mills, perry, and fizdale. They should have signed a dlo or malcom bragdon but they believed in dsj and frank to take that next step but the front office clearly missed so far on dsj and frank.

I as a fan am capable of watching a rebuild.

The FO maybe not, and the coach, maybe not.

The miss on PG is really turning out to be gigantic. They spent big money on the front court, and they screwed up by not keeping Mudiay.

Rebuilding is about finding and keeping gems. Mudiay is an ok player, but worlds better than what we currently have.

I liked Mudiay. Thought it would had made more sense to keep him rather than sign Payton. Think Payton was for Randle. However, Randle has yet to benefit from signing.

With that said, Mudiay would have made any difference in losses. Fact is, we have played better than last year. If you think about it, Randle having off games has been the biggest factor. I don't think that will continue.

I think when we hired Phil (and maybe even Isiah) we tried to replicate what happened with Riley, top-down approach, where we had a big name coach, who had won big before; come in here and really set it right, down to the dieticians.

Now obviously that didn't work out. And in fact some of our most successful coaches, e.g., Riley and JVG, simply quit on the organization -- still not 100% clear on that -- what other organization has had that happen like we do?

I might be completely unrealistic, but my hope is we draft a critical mass of guys who just so-know-how-to-play-together that the coach and the FO can't screw it up

RJ has something about him that make me feel he will be an essential ingredient. If we're lucky someone like KK or Mitch steps up too -- they're still kids in many ways. And then if we hit it big with another pick this next year??

The garden and fanbase has so much energy that if we actually start winning, we'll have the pick of the litter in FAs, coaching, etc.

HofstraBBall wrote:

houston20 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Hilarious to come on here, and most forums, and see posts from the arm chair GM's and coaches. I think we are seeing why NY is a tough town to commit to a proper rebuild. Most are calling for the firing of a coach six games into the season. Ignoring that he had D League level and 1st or 2nd year guys his first year and now have a mixture of B level NBA talent and young players looking to fit in. Not to mention that we have 9 new faces.
Some were booing a decent young pick up with high athletic ceiling just after 20 minutes into the start of his first full year here. Only his third at 21 years old. In spite of whining year after year that we need an athletic PG that can push pace. Guess that only goes for kids that can be All Start level at PG within their first 2 weeks as Knicks. Now some are asking for Frank, who had a decent first game and **** the bed in his second game as a starter, to be replaced by some no future, no outside shooting knee jerk reaction, in Rubio. Brilliant, we are looking for a PG that can shoot and we want ****ing Rubio? SMH

Look, did I like paying to go watch my team get embarrassed by a 1-5 team? Do I think the offense can run more PnR's? Do I think the offense has too much ISO and not enough motion? Hell yes. But to react like some two bit teenage child pissed off because his friends are going to make fun of him for rooting for a losing team is childish and short sighted. Does everyone have the right to bitch and complain....sure. But time for fans to go root for the Nets if they don't understand what a rebuild takes. And its lots of patience and giving young players/FA's some support and minutes to develop. And yes, it means giving a coach more than ONE year.

Here are the facts:
1) This team needs time to gel and play together.
2) Randle is a good player and will not be this bad all year. Needs to stop pressing.
3) We have seen progress on defense and have been in most games this year.
4) Unless we pick up someone like KI, Durant, Kawhi, Greek Freak, Curry, Harden etc, this rebuild will take giving players minutes to get some continuity and time to build chemistry.
5) The offense will improve as a coach sees each players strengths and short comings and can make adjustments.
6) Young players need time to develop and learn. Booing or replacing them after just one bad stint is not reasonable or constructive.
7) We have seen positive games in Morris, Portis, RJ, Payton, Frank etc. Coach should build on those and get others to get there as well

Biggest problem is that all this takes time and patience. Unfortunately, NYC, its fans, media just wont let this happen. There is always pressure on guys to win. Think this is what lead to Knicks giving up on youth movement and bringing on some broken Vets hoping they can save their jobs. As mentioned, I hate being this bad, but we have to ask what the real issue is and perhaps its starts from the fan base and its crazy expectations.

The biggest problem is the knicks took the point guard position for granted and screwed up badly believing in dsj, payton, and frank burned mills, perry, and fizdale. They should have signed a dlo or malcom bragdon but they believed in dsj and frank to take that next step but the front office clearly missed so far on dsj and frank.

Here is the thing. What do you mean by 'screwed up badly'? DSJR had a decent second half with Knicks in spite of being with a new team. Can you really say that a team screwed up badly after just 26 minutes?
Can we say that they screwed up in Randle signing after just 7 games?

Point is, this is the problem. Fans claim they want certain type of players, want to build with youth, want to rebuild correctly. But truth is they have NO realistic patience.

I feel that what we should have done, after losing our unicorn and missing out of KI and Durant is to sign a couple of guys that could fill some be long term pieces. Think Randle, Portis and Morris fit the bill. And then gone with our young guys that have shown potential. You start Mitch, Randle, Morris, RJ and DSJR. You have Portis back up Mitch, Knox back up Morris, Trier back up RJ, Frank back up Dennis and go small and put Dotson in second unit. This gives each player ample minutes to develop. If Frank is playing better have him in at the end of the game. Same goes for other positions. For me, Ellington taking minutes from Trier or Dotson and Payton taking minutes from Smith or Frank don't make sense. Think this would have been a good strategy to truly gauge growth and potential.

Fans will be fans its up to management to see it through. Fans don’t decide anything. So if you say can you rebuild in NY yes you can. The question is can management rebuild in NY? Do they have the fortitude to see it through? Fans can ask the coach to be fired they didn’t ask the fans when they hired. It’s up to management and ownership and the accounting departments to decide everyone’s fate.

e.g., FA system in a salary capped system favors winning teams. Everything else being equal, a FA would prefer to join a winning team over a losing team. Losing team will need to pay more. However when there's a cap, that's a problem because you have limited resources and need to dedicate a larger % of cap than opponent would. League could make adjustments to cap based on record, e.g., average record over last 3 years? This is the principle behind why crappier teams get higher picks; why not level the FA field so you can bring in quality vets to tutor the 19-20 YO draft picks.

losing teams have to take more risks to try and break out. Sure things want to play for GS or whoever is really contending. But if team misses on its gamble (looking at you Noah, D.Rose, Stat, etc.) it has to keep that money on its cap for a long time hurting it twice -- once for a bad gamble, and twice for tying up space going forward. That makes no sense at all? Why not simply let the player get paid (which i also don't like) but you simply buy them out w a clean slate for cap -- why continue the punishment. Football does something like this with guaranteed money. Guys sucks you can cut him but he keeps his guaranteed money

Then you have the issue of different costs of living and taxes. Now this might affect different players in different ways but it can certainly influence signings. There should be adjustments for this. At a minimum there should be adjustements for state and city income tax differences

If us fans can really try to leave the past - maybe the front office will be able to eventually get to the future and leave the past. Kinda like the new boyfriend that never gets a fair shake when the lady always cites what the old boyfriend used to do or act...

#neverforget :)

Chandler wrote:I think we are capable of a rebuild, but the process will be more organic, not top down

I think when we hired Phil (and maybe even Isiah) we tried to replicate what happened with Riley, top-down approach, where we had a big name coach, who had won big before; come in here and really set it right, down to the dieticians.

Now obviously that didn't work out. And in fact some of our most successful coaches, e.g., Riley and JVG, simply quit on the organization -- still not 100% clear on that -- what other organization has had that happen like we do?

I might be completely unrealistic, but my hope is we draft a critical mass of guys who just so-know-how-to-play-together that the coach and the FO can't screw it up

RJ has something about him that make me feel he will be an essential ingredient. If we're lucky someone like KK or Mitch steps up too -- they're still kids in many ways. And then if we hit it big with another pick this next year??

The garden and fanbase has so much energy that if we actually start winning, we'll have the pick of the litter in FAs, coaching, etc.

Good points. I agree that Kevin, RJ, Mitch have good potential to be a solid core. Would like to see a similar investment in guys like Dennis, Frank, Dotson and Trier.

Still curious to see what the long term plan was for this year. Think it makes sense for the Knicks to want to try to create some type of winning. Which would be the reason why they signed Randle, Morris, Portis, Ellington. I am just hoping that they had a back up plan in case things did not work out. Which would be to give young players ample minutes and trade some of the vets for assets. I hope it was not just a bunch of Knee jerk signings that they will stay committed for the entire year. Signings made only because they missed out on big names they thought they had in the bag.

Vmart wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

houston20 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Hilarious to come on here, and most forums, and see posts from the arm chair GM's and coaches. I think we are seeing why NY is a tough town to commit to a proper rebuild. Most are calling for the firing of a coach six games into the season. Ignoring that he had D League level and 1st or 2nd year guys his first year and now have a mixture of B level NBA talent and young players looking to fit in. Not to mention that we have 9 new faces.
Some were booing a decent young pick up with high athletic ceiling just after 20 minutes into the start of his first full year here. Only his third at 21 years old. In spite of whining year after year that we need an athletic PG that can push pace. Guess that only goes for kids that can be All Start level at PG within their first 2 weeks as Knicks. Now some are asking for Frank, who had a decent first game and **** the bed in his second game as a starter, to be replaced by some no future, no outside shooting knee jerk reaction, in Rubio. Brilliant, we are looking for a PG that can shoot and we want ****ing Rubio? SMH

Look, did I like paying to go watch my team get embarrassed by a 1-5 team? Do I think the offense can run more PnR's? Do I think the offense has too much ISO and not enough motion? Hell yes. But to react like some two bit teenage child pissed off because his friends are going to make fun of him for rooting for a losing team is childish and short sighted. Does everyone have the right to bitch and complain....sure. But time for fans to go root for the Nets if they don't understand what a rebuild takes. And its lots of patience and giving young players/FA's some support and minutes to develop. And yes, it means giving a coach more than ONE year.

Here are the facts:
1) This team needs time to gel and play together.
2) Randle is a good player and will not be this bad all year. Needs to stop pressing.
3) We have seen progress on defense and have been in most games this year.
4) Unless we pick up someone like KI, Durant, Kawhi, Greek Freak, Curry, Harden etc, this rebuild will take giving players minutes to get some continuity and time to build chemistry.
5) The offense will improve as a coach sees each players strengths and short comings and can make adjustments.
6) Young players need time to develop and learn. Booing or replacing them after just one bad stint is not reasonable or constructive.
7) We have seen positive games in Morris, Portis, RJ, Payton, Frank etc. Coach should build on those and get others to get there as well

Biggest problem is that all this takes time and patience. Unfortunately, NYC, its fans, media just wont let this happen. There is always pressure on guys to win. Think this is what lead to Knicks giving up on youth movement and bringing on some broken Vets hoping they can save their jobs. As mentioned, I hate being this bad, but we have to ask what the real issue is and perhaps its starts from the fan base and its crazy expectations.

The biggest problem is the knicks took the point guard position for granted and screwed up badly believing in dsj, payton, and frank burned mills, perry, and fizdale. They should have signed a dlo or malcom bragdon but they believed in dsj and frank to take that next step but the front office clearly missed so far on dsj and frank.

Here is the thing. What do you mean by 'screwed up badly'? DSJR had a decent second half with Knicks in spite of being with a new team. Can you really say that a team screwed up badly after just 26 minutes?
Can we say that they screwed up in Randle signing after just 7 games?

Point is, this is the problem. Fans claim they want certain type of players, want to build with youth, want to rebuild correctly. But truth is they have NO realistic patience.

I feel that what we should have done, after losing our unicorn and missing out of KI and Durant is to sign a couple of guys that could fill some be long term pieces. Think Randle, Portis and Morris fit the bill. And then gone with our young guys that have shown potential. You start Mitch, Randle, Morris, RJ and DSJR. You have Portis back up Mitch, Knox back up Morris, Trier back up RJ, Frank back up Dennis and go small and put Dotson in second unit. This gives each player ample minutes to develop. If Frank is playing better have him in at the end of the game. Same goes for other positions. For me, Ellington taking minutes from Trier or Dotson and Payton taking minutes from Smith or Frank don't make sense. Think this would have been a good strategy to truly gauge growth and potential.

Fans will be fans its up to management to see it through. Fans don’t decide anything. So if you say can you rebuild in NY yes you can. The question is can management rebuild in NY? Do they have the fortitude to see it through? Fans can ask the coach to be fired they didn’t ask the fans when they hired. It’s up to management and ownership and the accounting departments to decide everyone’s fate.

Agree. Hopefully we have a FO with vision, solid developmental skills, ability to keep good players and a solid plan. Hard to have confidence that they do with Mills and Dolan slithering around.

knicks1248 wrote:Dude development means you should be seeing progress, from the F/O to the last player on the bench, and there's been little to none at all.

Every season it's a different excuse to be a bad team, then call it a rebuild. This is mills 3rd full season as TOP dog, and so far 29 wins, 17 wins, and on pace for 15 wins this season.

Players around the league look at this franchise as one with no direction, no stability, no identity, no luck and a in experience from top to bottom..

6 yrs of not even sniffing the playoffs, and your calling for patience, does it need to be 10 full yrs.

Taking 70 million and Building a roster that doesn't fit, adding players with the same skill set, a roster that you can essentially tear down(after dec 15th) 90 days after you assembled it, and start all over again..

Nothing or noone seems stable in the entire organization, which is why a 21 yr old is your longest tenured player.

You have patience when your seeing progress..

I know you heard the FiRE Fizdale chants last night, because i heard them loud and clear...not entirely his fault but he has a lot be concerned about

May agree that some of the signing were to mitigate the failure to land a big name.
Being upset for not sniffing the playoffs is not a solution to getting to the playoffs.
Agree that there is a lot to work on. Just don't think 7 games into a season is an intelligent way to correctly evaluate anything.

In terms of improvement, agree that we have not seen much but think we can point to a couple of things.

1.Although its hard to say that we have better young assets after losing our Unicorn, one can say we have a deeper well of young assets.
2.RJ, although still way to early, looks like he deserved his high draft ranking.
3.Knox has showed progress and has continued to show very good range and shooting.
4.Frank, although lacking offensive ability, has shown to be a formidable man to man stopper.
5.Smith Jr. showed athleticism and the ability to share the ball last year. Maybe he just needs more than 26 minutes and to be healthy to show that he can be included on the list.
6.Our team defense has kept us in most of the games this year. Been a while since that has been said.
7.Morris and Portis seem to be a high energy intense players that are up for the bright lights of NY.
8.Trier has maintained his ability to score and may need solid minutes to elevate his game.
9.Mitch is solid on Defense and may need to be healthy to continue to impress.
10.Randle has had a very slow start. He is allegedly our go to scorer and yet we have competed.

Now again, this team sucked last night. But after just 7 games of a season I think its time to give these guys ample minutes to prove themselves, gain confidence and learn to play together. Don't think its time to rinse and repeat just yet.