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are the Celtics the deepest most athletic team in the atlantic?
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BRIGGS
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9/15/2004  11:14 PM
C- Blount 7-0 250
PF Jefferson 6-10 260
SF Davis 6-7 210
SG Pierce 6-6 230
PG Payton 6-4 190
C Perkins 6-10 270
F Lafrentz 6-11 245
F Welsch 6-7 210
G Allen 6-4 215
PG Banks 6-2 220

Gugliotta 6-10 250
McCarty 6-10 230 IR
Reed
Stewart
West
RIP Crushalot😞
AUTOADVERT
BigSm00th
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9/15/2004  11:24 PM
No the Knicks are.

C Thomas 6-9
PF Sweetney 6-8
SF TThomas 6-10
SG Crawford 6-5
PG Starbury 6-2

C Mohammed 6-10
PF Baker 6-10
SF Ariza 6-8
SG Houston 6-6
PG Penny 6-7

Dude Payton stunk last year, what are you talking aout. They have no PGs
#Knickstaps
Nalod
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9/15/2004  11:59 PM
Briggs,

This your seasonal "envy" time when the grass gets greener? I guess with the Celts, its "green" envy.

The celts were sneaky this year rebuilding. The faithful are full of knick pride these days. Hard to convince otherwise.

It will be settled in time.
crzymdups
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9/16/2004  12:16 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

C- Blount 7-0 250
PF Jefferson 6-10 260
SF Davis 6-7 210
SG Pierce 6-6 230
PG Payton 6-4 190
C Perkins 6-10 270
F Lafrentz 6-11 245
F Welsch 6-7 210
G Allen 6-4 215
PG Banks 6-2 220

Gugliotta 6-10 250
McCarty 6-10 230 IR
Reed
Stewart
West

I thought it was the Sixers...no...wait...the Raptors....

Just kidding. I actually agree that the Celtics have the most talented roster, though most of it is young and they have far more meshing issues than we do. We have a deeper front court too. Also, I think at this point, Marbury has surpassed Pierce. So I think the Knicks will slightly edge out the Celts.
¿ △ ?
BRIGGS
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9/16/2004  12:29 AM
How is Gary Payton not as good as Marbury? Remember Gary Payton had to play a style of offense that had Karl Malone Shaq and Kobe featuring with him as the 4th wheel in the truangle O. Let's give him the beefit of the doubt that he was very uncomfortable where he was playing YET he still put up excellent numbers.

Lets go back the last 3 years minus last year and compare numbers for Payton and Marbury.


Payton
2000 23 points 8 assists 4.5 rebounds 1.6 steals FG% 45.6
2001 22 points 9 assists 5 rebounds 1.6 steals FG% 46.7
2002 21 points 9 assists 5 rebounds 1.8 steals 45%

Marbury
2000 24 points 7.5 assists 3 rebounds 1.2 steals FG% 44%
2001 20 points 8 A 3 R 1 S FG% 44%
2002 22 points 8 A 3.5R 1.2S FG% 44


actually Gary's all around numbers are better. Look at Marbury when he was taken out of his element and his game at the Olympics. Other than 1 and 1/2 games, he was awful. I believe it was because he was out of his natural playing style--same thing happened to gary last year. Granted gary is 9 years older, but he has a body type that will stay good until he is 40+

So the answer is no--there is no big difference between Marbury and Payton. you say Payton stunk--although his numbers as a 4th wheel were pretty darn good, how many people said marbury stunk at the olympics. The guy was out of his element.

RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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9/16/2004  12:36 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

How is Gary Payton not as good as Marbury? Remember Gary Payton had to play a style of offense that had Karl Malone Shaq and Kobe featuring with him as the 4th wheel in the truangle O. Let's give him the beefit of the doubt that he was very uncomfortable where he was playing YET he still put up excellent numbers.

Lets go back the last 3 years minus last year and compare numbers for Payton and Marbury.


Payton
2000 23 points 8 assists 4.5 rebounds 1.6 steals FG% 45.6
2001 22 points 9 assists 5 rebounds 1.6 steals FG% 46.7
2002 21 points 9 assists 5 rebounds 1.8 steals 45%

Marbury
2000 24 points 7.5 assists 3 rebounds 1.2 steals FG% 44%
2001 20 points 8 A 3 R 1 S FG% 44%
2002 22 points 8 A 3.5R 1.2S FG% 44


actually Gary's all around numbers are better. Look at Marbury when he was taken out of his element and his game at the Olympics. Other than 1 and 1/2 games, he was awful. I believe it was because he was out of his natural playing style--same thing happened to gary last year. Granted gary is 9 years older, but he has a body type that will stay good until he is 40+

So the answer is no--there is no big difference between Marbury and Payton. you say Payton stunk--although his numbers as a 4th wheel were pretty darn good, how many people said marbury stunk at the olympics. The guy was out of his element.
Why are you comparing their numbers that many years ago. Payton's old and playing worse than most bench PGs.
Marbury stunk at the olympics??? That's a joke! Marbury is *the reason* the team finished with the bronze rather than about 6th or 7th. He averaged 24PPG on about 60% from the field in the medal round! You can't get any better than that!
Bonn1997
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9/16/2004  12:37 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Briggs,

This your seasonal "envy" time when the grass gets greener? I guess with the Celts, its "green" envy.

The celts were sneaky this year rebuilding. The faithful are full of knick pride these days. Hard to convince otherwise.

It will be settled in time.
I agree with you on this one. Briggs takes the best case scenario for all 12 players on each team's roster except for the Knicks, which he takes the worst case scenario for each player.
BRIGGS
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9/16/2004  12:49 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by BRIGGS:

How is Gary Payton not as good as Marbury? Remember Gary Payton had to play a style of offense that had Karl Malone Shaq and Kobe featuring with him as the 4th wheel in the truangle O. Let's give him the beefit of the doubt that he was very uncomfortable where he was playing YET he still put up excellent numbers.

Lets go back the last 3 years minus last year and compare numbers for Payton and Marbury.


Payton
2000 23 points 8 assists 4.5 rebounds 1.6 steals FG% 45.6
2001 22 points 9 assists 5 rebounds 1.6 steals FG% 46.7
2002 21 points 9 assists 5 rebounds 1.8 steals 45%

Marbury
2000 24 points 7.5 assists 3 rebounds 1.2 steals FG% 44%
2001 20 points 8 A 3 R 1 S FG% 44%
2002 22 points 8 A 3.5R 1.2S FG% 44


actually Gary's all around numbers are better. Look at Marbury when he was taken out of his element and his game at the Olympics. Other than 1 and 1/2 games, he was awful. I believe it was because he was out of his natural playing style--same thing happened to gary last year. Granted gary is 9 years older, but he has a body type that will stay good until he is 40+

So the answer is no--there is no big difference between Marbury and Payton. you say Payton stunk--although his numbers as a 4th wheel were pretty darn good, how many people said marbury stunk at the olympics. The guy was out of his element.
Why are you comparing their numbers that many years ago. Payton's old and playing worse than most bench PGs.
Marbury stunk at the olympics??? That's a joke! Marbury is *the reason* the team finished with the bronze rather than about 6th or 7th. He averaged 24PPG on about 60% from the field in the medal round! You can't get any better than that!

these comments are so stupid that it's baseless to reply but here goes:>)

Marbury STUNK the joint up at the olympics other than 1 great game and 1/2 of another one. That is the only reality based fact.


Payton is worse than bench PG's? the stats I used were from the last 3 years minus 2003. Still Marbury had very good numbers as a fourth wheel. If you put Marbury on LA as a 4th wheel-what would he average--not 20 points. I forgot, Marbury is bette than kobe and Shaq right!

Payton's numbers from last year with the lakers

14.6 points 5.5 assits 4.2 rebounds shooting a mere 47% as a fourth whell in an offense that he did not like. What bench PG put up those numbers--heck how many reg PG put up those numbers? Although they are not of the same character I think there are many similarities with Stockton and Payton. Gary is a better scorer rebounder defender, Stockton a better distributor and still very solid on the D and both missed 4-5 games in TOTAL for their LONG careers. Stockton went on to play at a high level until 41 and he probably could still be playing--i think the partying of payton will take a toll on him sooner, but his style of play with his extraordinary body type--just like stockton will let him play at a high level for another 4-5 years.

RIP Crushalot😞
tkf
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9/16/2004  1:07 AM
Briggs, you are comparing Payton of a few years ago to marbs, and then you throw in stockton into the mix to validate your defense of payton which is ridiculous. Stockton played in a great system in utah, a system in which he florished without having to be the go to guy, payton flourished for years as the "man" and that is why he struggled in LA, he was no longer the first option, or the second, or third, now things are not going to change in boston, pierce is the first option, the other shooting nut davis will be another option, are you now telling me that payton is going to thrive in a role that he struggled in while in LA? Lets face it, although a good player, payton is not the player he was even 2 years ago...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
BRIGGS
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9/16/2004  1:15 AM
the REALITY is 2 years ago Payton and Marbury had very similar numbers[actually gary's were a tad better]


if you took marbury and put him on as a fouth wheel in LA behind Shaq Kobe and Karl Malone--he wouldve averaged what Payton averaged with a lower shooting %. Stephon Marbury was the NUMBER 1 option for the knicks-he either shoots or passes--on the lakers the way they run the triangle---the PG isn't a featured player.



RIP Crushalot😞
tkf
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9/16/2004  1:26 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

the REALITY is 2 years ago Payton and Marbury had very similar numbers[actually gary's were a tad better]


if you took marbury and put him on as a fouth wheel in LA behind Shaq Kobe and Karl Malone--he wouldve averaged what Payton averaged with a lower shooting %. Stephon Marbury was the NUMBER 1 option for the knicks-he either shoots or passes--on the lakers the way they run the triangle---the PG isn't a featured player.


Briggs this is not 2 years ago. 2 years ago marbs was 24 going on 25, not near his prime, gary was 33 in his prime years and on the downside of his great play, what is your point here comparing gary from 2 years ago to steph? The fact and reality is that Payton is slowing down, and don't look at the stats, look at the play, look at how bad tony parker made him look, look how bad the pistons and Billups made him look, he was outplayed and defense has nothing to do with shaq and kobe dominating the ball, payton was just outplayed... You keep saying if steph was on the lakers, well steph is not on the lakers and even so, I still would expect steph to dish the ball and score, and not whine, but getting back to reality, the reality is that payton is in another situation where he will be a 3rd option, this is the reason why your argument about him beeing more effective than steph or him making boston that much better is bogus, payton does not play well as a 3rd option, and the reality is that he is going to be a 3rd option...

What is your point?
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Clean
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9/16/2004  1:28 AM
So Briggs you would trade marbury for payton straight up?
nyvector16
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9/16/2004  2:09 AM
I think Briggs needs to spend a lil time away from his Playstation...
Not only did Payton blow last year.. and was exposed as a liability for the Lakers... He got a DUI in the offseason...
Meanwhile.. Marbury was busy bailing out the US Olympic team from total embarassment..

To Compare Payton and Marbury in the real world of the Now...
Is just plain silly...
technomaster
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9/16/2004  2:12 AM
I'll have to help Briggs out here.

A trade of Marbury for Payton is definitely not the point of the argument. Given that Payton is getting older and just had a bad season statistically (for him, anyway!), it's not really a thought that would pop in anyone's head (except perhaps as part of a package deal).

I believe the point is that the Celtics have a pretty solid roster if everyone is healthy. Payton is CLEARLY A HUGE UPGRADE at the PG spot over what they had last season. His numbers were pretty solid for someone who was limited at best to 3rd option on offense. (Consequently, can anyone even predict who the #2 scorer on the Knicks will be after Marbury this coming season?)

There are a lot of question marks about the Celtics:
Ricky Davis has so much potential (think young Sprewell) but didn't have time to find a role on the team last year. Can he find it w/ training camp?
Is Blount a contract-year wonder, or is he the real deal?
Is LaFrentz healthy-- he's perhaps the biggest X-factor. When healthy he could be considered a top 5-6 center.
Will the young guys come out to play (Banks, Perkins, Jefferson...)

but these are similar questions the Knicks are asking. Our frontcourt has some talent, but each player's role right now is very questionable. The Knicks' appointed savior (Sweetney) sure was sweet in the summer leagues, but will that success translate to true NBA-level competition? (reading this forum would have you believe that he's the next Barkley--- NO WAIT, HE'LL BE EVEN BETTER THAN BARKLEY AND MALONE COMBINED)
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
nyvector16
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9/16/2004  2:18 AM
Alot of IFs in your arguement supporting Briggs Techno...
But hey... If you fellas want to live in a best case scenario world anywhere outside of New York City Limits... and live in a worst case scenario world here at home..
Far be it from me to stop ya...


I said it before..
I'll say it again..

KNICKS RULE!!!!!!!!
VAN HORN Droools!!!
Mac
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9/16/2004  2:29 AM
Posted by nyvector16:

If you fellas want to live in a best case scenario world anywhere outside of New York City Limits... and live in a worst case scenario world here at home..

The opinions produced by BRIGGS should hardly be a subject for ridicule considering what he brings to the discussions on this board. He plays DAdvocate in order to present an opinion which would otherwise be overlooked in this board in order to keep the threads more debatable... Who wants to read "KNICKS RULE" every thread anyway?
technomaster
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9/16/2004  2:48 AM
What holes are there in my argument? :) I'm not saying that the Celtics are the team to beat--- I'm saying they have the tools to win games, just as the Knicks do.

The Celtics are clearly a better team with Payton at PG than last year. I've been a big fan of GP (he was part of my keeper's fantasy team for years!), and last year we didn't see his full potential on the Lakers. We're talking about a team with two 20+ppg scorers that hammered its way through a tough Western Conference field and made it to the NBA finals.

He did his part on a very successful team that didn't quite go all the way, but pretty gosh darned close.

If we want to compare Payton vs Marbury 2003-2004, GP has a top-2 post-up game for a PG (right there w/ Sam Cassell) and owns a much higher fg%. Over his career, he's been a much better rebounder and was again last year, in fewer minutes. In addition, last year GP tied a career low in 1.8 TO/gm...

Marbury, at least at this stage, is a better slasher and a better scorer. Scoring, however, is a relative thing because it depends on touches and shot opportunities. Marbury played 5 more minutes and took 4 more shots per game. I think their defense is a wash, given Payton getting thrashed by Billups.

I think the comparisons of Payton on the Lakers to Marbury on the Olympic team are legit. Payton had to learn a team-based system (the triangle) with 3 scorers ahead of him on the totem pole. He had his fair share of big games (high game of 30pts) and low points (poor playoff performances after giving away some of his scoring opportunities to Malone)

Marbury had his best teammates since Garnett/Gugliotta, errr Tim Thomas/Shandon Anderson. Seriously, though, Marbury had to play with a new coach who wanted him to be a better ball distributor, learn a new system, and realistically be only the 3rd or 4th option on the starting lineup (Duncan/Iverson and perhaps Odom).

As we all saw, Marbury struggled in the exhibition tour before the Olympics and also in most of the games in the Olympics. He finished up unbelievably strong, but this was a team that not only was supposed to win gold but was also SUPPOSED TO GO UNDEFEATED.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
EnySpree
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9/16/2004  3:33 AM
Why are Knick fans talking about Gary Payton?

He is a 33+ year old crybaby. What did his defense have to do with his offense? He should have just focused on his championship goal. Please end the debate.

Marbs is the best point guard in the league. As Knick fans we should take pride in that and put him up against Baron Davis and whoever with confidence.

Forget Payton for a sec....
Boston might just be the most athletic team in the Atlantic. They are young but they have Doc Rivers and Doc has proved he can get players to play hard.

People are trying to over hype the Knicks but Philly, and Boston are right there. I think it's gonna be a dog fight the whole season....a three way rivalry.
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Bonn1997
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9/16/2004  7:27 AM
Sorry but when the games counted (i.e., the playoffs) Payton put up 7.8 PPG and 5 assists. That IS worst than most bench PGs would give you in 35 minutes a game. You're right he was adjusting to a new system like Marbury was in the olympics. The difference is that it took Marbury 4 exhibition games to adjust while Payton couldn't adjust after a full season.

BTW, Marbury played well in all the medal games, not just the one 31 point game. He averaged over 20 PPG on about 60% shooting from ALL the medal games.

But hey... If you fellas want to live in a best case scenario world anywhere outside of New York City Limits... and live in a worst case scenario world here at home..
Far be it from me to stop ya
I'm not sure whether it's sad or funny that some people resort to that strategy. Maybe it's a little of both.
BRIGGS
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9/16/2004  10:26 AM
thats exactly what I was saying. perhaps Marbury now trumps Payton, but not by a lot--there is no big difference between the two players imho. Im not talking about 4 years from now Im talking today.
When i read that someone compared Pierce to marbury, of course my natural thought is why are you comparing a PG to a SF/SG when they have Gary Payton? It's ludicrous to dismiss Gary Payton somehow as a guy who is shot or who is way below they play of Marbury when statistics don't show any differnce. remember gary Payton has been 1st team all NBA 8 times, top 5 MVP ballooting 5 times and has carried his teams to the finals and deep into the playoffs several years--he did play poorly in last years playoffs and really didnt mesh with the way they were doing things there, but like Marbury with almost every game in the Olympics--take the player out of his element and change his style--and you can take away that players game.
RIP Crushalot😞
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