Somehow this year seems different... for one we're playing really good defense. We haven't played defense like this since the 90s.

No *******s crybabies a s phonies like Rose, Affalo and Melo.

We won't win a championship with this rotation or squad. It's great that they are playing this way, but we've had a very home heavy schedule. We're 1-3 on the road. We win at this same rate at home and on the road, and we wind up at 39 wins. That's really a best case for this team, we win around 50 percent of our games once the road games balance out. We're likely at best going to either squeak into the playoffs or just miss.

So I hope at some point, we move O'Quinn.

That said, if after the road games even out with the home games, if we're still in the top 6 of the East, I'll be super surprised and want this team to keep intact and try to improve at the deadline. The road games evening out will be the real indicator of whether this team can make the playoffs or not.

Is Knicks' early success the stuff of long-deferred playoff dreams?

The prevailing wisdom on the New York Knicks heading into this season was that they were going to be bad. Really bad.

So bad that the only thing worth talking about was how many games they'd lose -- and how many pingpong ball combinations they'd have in the NBA draft lottery.

But things obviously haven't played out that way.

After Friday's blowout loss to the Toronto Raptors in Canada, the Knicks are 8-7 and tied for eighth place in the Eastern Conference. We're less than a quarter of the way through the season, so it's too early to draw any strong conclusions. And the way the Knicks played on the road on Friday certainly was troubling. But scouts around the league who've watched over the first month of the season have been impressed.

"They move the ball well under [coach Jeff Hornacek]," one Western Conference scout said. "And, obviously, [Kristaps] Porzingis has been unreal. But they're playing hard around him on both ends of the floor."

So how did we get here? How did a team pegged as an afterthought end up over .500 a month into the season? And how long can it all last?

"If they keep playing with the effort they've given recently," the scout says, "they'll win their fair share of games."

To Hornacek, one of the biggest differences between last season's 31-win Knicks team and his group this season is the offense.

"Last year we were trying to combine a couple of things -- our style and the triangle style. We tried to mix it," he said, "This year we're not trying to mix it."

Yes, there was plenty of resistance to the triangle offense last season. That has been well documented. That resistance to the system -- which turned into a huge roadblock to success last season -- is gone. This season under Hornacek, players are operating in an open, perimeter-oriented approach with encouraging results.

Entering play Friday, the Knicks had the NBA's 10th-best offense (based on points per 100 possessions) and the ninth-best assist ratio in the league. Last season, New York finished 18th in offensive efficiency and 23rd in assist ratio. Some might attribute that to Carmelo Anthony's departure, but players and coaches say that it has more to do with offensive approach than anything else.

"This year you can feel that Jeff has more, he's running his own stuff without anybody coming in and telling him what to do or how to do," Porzingis said earlier this week on ESPN Radio's The Michael Kay Show. "So I think, from the top down, you can feel that there's more confidence in what we're doing. It's a better feeling this way."

Porzingis also has more freedom in his first season as the Knicks' primary scoring option.

Entering Friday's game against Toronto, Porzingis was taking six more shots per game and was making nearly 50 percent of his shots (40 percent from beyond the arc).

His offseason strength training, which focused on his core and lower half, has allowed him to be more effective in the post.

As Basketball Insiders' Tommy Beer notes, Porzingis had made 72 percent of his shots when a defender was within two feet of him this season, up from 47 percent last season. He has shown again and again this season that he's both comfortable and strong enough to turn and shoot over most defenders.

"He's just taking his time with all of his movements. He's not rushing anything," Hornacek said. "And that's when the game slows down. At 7-3, and his skills and his talent, the sky's the limit for him."

The Knicks have shown solid depth beyond Porzingis. They beat Utah on a night in which Porzingis wasn't putting up MVP-level numbers. Tim Hardaway Jr. picked things up with 26 points, continuing a run of strong play, Courtney Lee had 19 and Frank Ntilikina defended well down the stretch. It all added up to a solid come-from-behind win at home and more evidence that this Knicks team has put its 0-3 start in the rearview mirror.

"They were doubting themselves in the beginning," Hornacek said. "I don't think they doubt that they can play with any team in the league now. They have that confidence. They take losses hard. It's not just another game. They want to win every game."

That attitude is important, but it won't be enough to close the talent gap the Knicks will face against the better teams in the league. That was evident on Friday when DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry and the Raptors dominated the Knicks in Toronto.

Was that kind of loss the result you'd expect when you put a young team in a tough road environment against a veteran backcourt? Or are the Knicks simply ill-equipped to compete with the better teams in their conference? That's what Knicks management will have to figure out in the coming weeks. Things will get interesting if New York remains in playoff contention into February. At that point, will the front office of president Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry be aggressive at the trade deadline if the Knicks are still in the playoff picture?

Or, as many around the league expected coming into the season, will Mills and Perry look to shed some of the Knicks' long-term contracts at the deadline to free up cap space for the future?

That depends largely on what happens over the next 10 weeks. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The Knicks have had strong starts in the past two seasons only to crash and burn near the All-Star break. Two seasons ago, they were 22-22 before a long losing streak led to Derek Fisher's firing. Last season, they started the season 16-14 but stumbled amid on- and off-court controversies and finished with 51 losses.

"From the top the bottom, we wasn't on the same page and it showed on the court," said Derrick Rose, last season's starting point guard, who now plays for the Cavaliers.

Is this group on the same page? Porzingis believes so. That's why he thinks this group is better equipped to win consistently.

"That whole first part of the season we were playing well above .500 and we played off of our talent, just based on our energy. And we really didn't have the fundamentals," Porzingis said. "I felt we really didn't have the fundamentals as a team. And then this year the difference is we try to play hard defense for 48 minutes, we never give up. ... We're playing together, we're sharing the ball. And then everybody is involved and everybody's dangerous. I think we have a better connection this year as a team."

That's not to say that everything's perfect in the Big Apple.

The Knicks have played with consistent effort on defense but have their fair share of issues on that end of the court. They entered play Friday ranked 23rd in defensive efficiency and 27th in shots contested per 48 minutes. And that was before their 23-point loss to the Raptors. The coaching staff hopes that a new, consistent approach on the defensive end will help the players improve over the course of the season. Players are optimistic after constant tweaks to the defensive scheme left players confused.

"We didn't have the confidence 100 percent in each other and the system," Porzingis said of last season. "Now we're sticking to the same thing. And we know that some games it will work better [and] some games it will work not so well, but we know if we play hard and we follow that, we feel like any game is winnable."

In the big picture, the Knicks feel like they are in good shape. They're enthused by the play of Ntilikina and Hardaway -- two of the players they see as part of their young core around Porzingis. (That core also includes Willy Hernangomez, who is out of the rotation.)

But these players aren't interested in simply building for the future this season.

"It's so exciting to be with these guys, because we don't want to be good in the future. We want to be good right now," Ntilikina said earlier this month. "We want to grow up right now."

Just how good can the Knicks be this season? The projections don't paint a pretty picture. New York has a 28 percent chance of making the playoffs, per FiveThirtyEight's projections. ESPN's Basketball Power Index is even less bullish. It gives the Knicks a 12.7 percent chance of making the postseason.

But unlike most projections from outside observers, Porzingis felt before the season that the Knicks could make the postseason. Nearly one month into the season, he's sticking with that prediction.

"I thought that we were going to be a competitive team no matter what," he said. "... There's going to be some time to learn, adjust and grow, but I'm happy with the way we're competing and I believe that we're a playoff team."

Why is it in the human condition to just let the story unfold and enjoy the ride?
Sports is entertainment..

GustavBahler wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/m/a9c22f1d-b1ec-3b22-8421-aa2bd83073ac/is-knicks%26%2339%3B-early-success.html

Is Knicks' early success the stuff of long-deferred playoff dreams?

The prevailing wisdom on the New York Knicks heading into this season was that they were going to be bad. Really bad.

So bad that the only thing worth talking about was how many games they'd lose -- and how many pingpong ball combinations they'd have in the NBA draft lottery.

But things obviously haven't played out that way.

After Friday's blowout loss to the Toronto Raptors in Canada, the Knicks are 8-7 and tied for eighth place in the Eastern Conference. We're less than a quarter of the way through the season, so it's too early to draw any strong conclusions. And the way the Knicks played on the road on Friday certainly was troubling. But scouts around the league who've watched over the first month of the season have been impressed.

"They move the ball well under [coach Jeff Hornacek]," one Western Conference scout said. "And, obviously, [Kristaps] Porzingis has been unreal. But they're playing hard around him on both ends of the floor."

So how did we get here? How did a team pegged as an afterthought end up over .500 a month into the season? And how long can it all last?

"If they keep playing with the effort they've given recently," the scout says, "they'll win their fair share of games."

To Hornacek, one of the biggest differences between last season's 31-win Knicks team and his group this season is the offense.

"Last year we were trying to combine a couple of things -- our style and the triangle style. We tried to mix it," he said, "This year we're not trying to mix it."

Yes, there was plenty of resistance to the triangle offense last season. That has been well documented. That resistance to the system -- which turned into a huge roadblock to success last season -- is gone. This season under Hornacek, players are operating in an open, perimeter-oriented approach with encouraging results.

Entering play Friday, the Knicks had the NBA's 10th-best offense (based on points per 100 possessions) and the ninth-best assist ratio in the league. Last season, New York finished 18th in offensive efficiency and 23rd in assist ratio. Some might attribute that to Carmelo Anthony's departure, but players and coaches say that it has more to do with offensive approach than anything else.

"This year you can feel that Jeff has more, he's running his own stuff without anybody coming in and telling him what to do or how to do," Porzingis said earlier this week on ESPN Radio's The Michael Kay Show. "So I think, from the top down, you can feel that there's more confidence in what we're doing. It's a better feeling this way."

Porzingis also has more freedom in his first season as the Knicks' primary scoring option.

Entering Friday's game against Toronto, Porzingis was taking six more shots per game and was making nearly 50 percent of his shots (40 percent from beyond the arc).

His offseason strength training, which focused on his core and lower half, has allowed him to be more effective in the post.

As Basketball Insiders' Tommy Beer notes, Porzingis had made 72 percent of his shots when a defender was within two feet of him this season, up from 47 percent last season. He has shown again and again this season that he's both comfortable and strong enough to turn and shoot over most defenders.

"He's just taking his time with all of his movements. He's not rushing anything," Hornacek said. "And that's when the game slows down. At 7-3, and his skills and his talent, the sky's the limit for him."

The Knicks have shown solid depth beyond Porzingis. They beat Utah on a night in which Porzingis wasn't putting up MVP-level numbers. Tim Hardaway Jr. picked things up with 26 points, continuing a run of strong play, Courtney Lee had 19 and Frank Ntilikina defended well down the stretch. It all added up to a solid come-from-behind win at home and more evidence that this Knicks team has put its 0-3 start in the rearview mirror.

"They were doubting themselves in the beginning," Hornacek said. "I don't think they doubt that they can play with any team in the league now. They have that confidence. They take losses hard. It's not just another game. They want to win every game."

That attitude is important, but it won't be enough to close the talent gap the Knicks will face against the better teams in the league. That was evident on Friday when DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry and the Raptors dominated the Knicks in Toronto.

Was that kind of loss the result you'd expect when you put a young team in a tough road environment against a veteran backcourt? Or are the Knicks simply ill-equipped to compete with the better teams in their conference? That's what Knicks management will have to figure out in the coming weeks. Things will get interesting if New York remains in playoff contention into February. At that point, will the front office of president Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry be aggressive at the trade deadline if the Knicks are still in the playoff picture?

Or, as many around the league expected coming into the season, will Mills and Perry look to shed some of the Knicks' long-term contracts at the deadline to free up cap space for the future?

That depends largely on what happens over the next 10 weeks. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The Knicks have had strong starts in the past two seasons only to crash and burn near the All-Star break. Two seasons ago, they were 22-22 before a long losing streak led to Derek Fisher's firing. Last season, they started the season 16-14 but stumbled amid on- and off-court controversies and finished with 51 losses.

"From the top the bottom, we wasn't on the same page and it showed on the court," said Derrick Rose, last season's starting point guard, who now plays for the Cavaliers.

Is this group on the same page? Porzingis believes so. That's why he thinks this group is better equipped to win consistently.

"That whole first part of the season we were playing well above .500 and we played off of our talent, just based on our energy. And we really didn't have the fundamentals," Porzingis said. "I felt we really didn't have the fundamentals as a team. And then this year the difference is we try to play hard defense for 48 minutes, we never give up. ... We're playing together, we're sharing the ball. And then everybody is involved and everybody's dangerous. I think we have a better connection this year as a team."

That's not to say that everything's perfect in the Big Apple.

The Knicks have played with consistent effort on defense but have their fair share of issues on that end of the court. They entered play Friday ranked 23rd in defensive efficiency and 27th in shots contested per 48 minutes. And that was before their 23-point loss to the Raptors. The coaching staff hopes that a new, consistent approach on the defensive end will help the players improve over the course of the season. Players are optimistic after constant tweaks to the defensive scheme left players confused.

"We didn't have the confidence 100 percent in each other and the system," Porzingis said of last season. "Now we're sticking to the same thing. And we know that some games it will work better [and] some games it will work not so well, but we know if we play hard and we follow that, we feel like any game is winnable."

In the big picture, the Knicks feel like they are in good shape. They're enthused by the play of Ntilikina and Hardaway -- two of the players they see as part of their young core around Porzingis. (That core also includes Willy Hernangomez, who is out of the rotation.)

But these players aren't interested in simply building for the future this season.

"It's so exciting to be with these guys, because we don't want to be good in the future. We want to be good right now," Ntilikina said earlier this month. "We want to grow up right now."

Just how good can the Knicks be this season? The projections don't paint a pretty picture. New York has a 28 percent chance of making the playoffs, per FiveThirtyEight's projections. ESPN's Basketball Power Index is even less bullish. It gives the Knicks a 12.7 percent chance of making the postseason.

But unlike most projections from outside observers, Porzingis felt before the season that the Knicks could make the postseason. Nearly one month into the season, he's sticking with that prediction.

"I thought that we were going to be a competitive team no matter what," he said. "... There's going to be some time to learn, adjust and grow, but I'm happy with the way we're competing and I believe that we're a playoff team."

You may want to keep this on the down low. Some on here still think we are running "Elements" of the Triangle. You know cuz players are setting pikcs, at high post and making back cuts.

HofstraBBall wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/m/a9c22f1d-b1ec-3b22-8421-aa2bd83073ac/is-knicks%26%2339%3B-early-success.html

Is Knicks' early success the stuff of long-deferred playoff dreams?

The prevailing wisdom on the New York Knicks heading into this season was that they were going to be bad. Really bad.

So bad that the only thing worth talking about was how many games they'd lose -- and how many pingpong ball combinations they'd have in the NBA draft lottery.

But things obviously haven't played out that way.

After Friday's blowout loss to the Toronto Raptors in Canada, the Knicks are 8-7 and tied for eighth place in the Eastern Conference. We're less than a quarter of the way through the season, so it's too early to draw any strong conclusions. And the way the Knicks played on the road on Friday certainly was troubling. But scouts around the league who've watched over the first month of the season have been impressed.

"They move the ball well under [coach Jeff Hornacek]," one Western Conference scout said. "And, obviously, [Kristaps] Porzingis has been unreal. But they're playing hard around him on both ends of the floor."

So how did we get here? How did a team pegged as an afterthought end up over .500 a month into the season? And how long can it all last?

"If they keep playing with the effort they've given recently," the scout says, "they'll win their fair share of games."

To Hornacek, one of the biggest differences between last season's 31-win Knicks team and his group this season is the offense.

"Last year we were trying to combine a couple of things -- our style and the triangle style. We tried to mix it," he said, "This year we're not trying to mix it."

Yes, there was plenty of resistance to the triangle offense last season. That has been well documented. That resistance to the system -- which turned into a huge roadblock to success last season -- is gone. This season under Hornacek, players are operating in an open, perimeter-oriented approach with encouraging results.

Entering play Friday, the Knicks had the NBA's 10th-best offense (based on points per 100 possessions) and the ninth-best assist ratio in the league. Last season, New York finished 18th in offensive efficiency and 23rd in assist ratio. Some might attribute that to Carmelo Anthony's departure, but players and coaches say that it has more to do with offensive approach than anything else.

"This year you can feel that Jeff has more, he's running his own stuff without anybody coming in and telling him what to do or how to do," Porzingis said earlier this week on ESPN Radio's The Michael Kay Show. "So I think, from the top down, you can feel that there's more confidence in what we're doing. It's a better feeling this way."

Porzingis also has more freedom in his first season as the Knicks' primary scoring option.

Entering Friday's game against Toronto, Porzingis was taking six more shots per game and was making nearly 50 percent of his shots (40 percent from beyond the arc).

His offseason strength training, which focused on his core and lower half, has allowed him to be more effective in the post.

As Basketball Insiders' Tommy Beer notes, Porzingis had made 72 percent of his shots when a defender was within two feet of him this season, up from 47 percent last season. He has shown again and again this season that he's both comfortable and strong enough to turn and shoot over most defenders.

"He's just taking his time with all of his movements. He's not rushing anything," Hornacek said. "And that's when the game slows down. At 7-3, and his skills and his talent, the sky's the limit for him."

The Knicks have shown solid depth beyond Porzingis. They beat Utah on a night in which Porzingis wasn't putting up MVP-level numbers. Tim Hardaway Jr. picked things up with 26 points, continuing a run of strong play, Courtney Lee had 19 and Frank Ntilikina defended well down the stretch. It all added up to a solid come-from-behind win at home and more evidence that this Knicks team has put its 0-3 start in the rearview mirror.

"They were doubting themselves in the beginning," Hornacek said. "I don't think they doubt that they can play with any team in the league now. They have that confidence. They take losses hard. It's not just another game. They want to win every game."

That attitude is important, but it won't be enough to close the talent gap the Knicks will face against the better teams in the league. That was evident on Friday when DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry and the Raptors dominated the Knicks in Toronto.

Was that kind of loss the result you'd expect when you put a young team in a tough road environment against a veteran backcourt? Or are the Knicks simply ill-equipped to compete with the better teams in their conference? That's what Knicks management will have to figure out in the coming weeks. Things will get interesting if New York remains in playoff contention into February. At that point, will the front office of president Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry be aggressive at the trade deadline if the Knicks are still in the playoff picture?

Or, as many around the league expected coming into the season, will Mills and Perry look to shed some of the Knicks' long-term contracts at the deadline to free up cap space for the future?

That depends largely on what happens over the next 10 weeks. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The Knicks have had strong starts in the past two seasons only to crash and burn near the All-Star break. Two seasons ago, they were 22-22 before a long losing streak led to Derek Fisher's firing. Last season, they started the season 16-14 but stumbled amid on- and off-court controversies and finished with 51 losses.

"From the top the bottom, we wasn't on the same page and it showed on the court," said Derrick Rose, last season's starting point guard, who now plays for the Cavaliers.

Is this group on the same page? Porzingis believes so. That's why he thinks this group is better equipped to win consistently.

"That whole first part of the season we were playing well above .500 and we played off of our talent, just based on our energy. And we really didn't have the fundamentals," Porzingis said. "I felt we really didn't have the fundamentals as a team. And then this year the difference is we try to play hard defense for 48 minutes, we never give up. ... We're playing together, we're sharing the ball. And then everybody is involved and everybody's dangerous. I think we have a better connection this year as a team."

That's not to say that everything's perfect in the Big Apple.

The Knicks have played with consistent effort on defense but have their fair share of issues on that end of the court. They entered play Friday ranked 23rd in defensive efficiency and 27th in shots contested per 48 minutes. And that was before their 23-point loss to the Raptors. The coaching staff hopes that a new, consistent approach on the defensive end will help the players improve over the course of the season. Players are optimistic after constant tweaks to the defensive scheme left players confused.

"We didn't have the confidence 100 percent in each other and the system," Porzingis said of last season. "Now we're sticking to the same thing. And we know that some games it will work better [and] some games it will work not so well, but we know if we play hard and we follow that, we feel like any game is winnable."

In the big picture, the Knicks feel like they are in good shape. They're enthused by the play of Ntilikina and Hardaway -- two of the players they see as part of their young core around Porzingis. (That core also includes Willy Hernangomez, who is out of the rotation.)

But these players aren't interested in simply building for the future this season.

"It's so exciting to be with these guys, because we don't want to be good in the future. We want to be good right now," Ntilikina said earlier this month. "We want to grow up right now."

Just how good can the Knicks be this season? The projections don't paint a pretty picture. New York has a 28 percent chance of making the playoffs, per FiveThirtyEight's projections. ESPN's Basketball Power Index is even less bullish. It gives the Knicks a 12.7 percent chance of making the postseason.

But unlike most projections from outside observers, Porzingis felt before the season that the Knicks could make the postseason. Nearly one month into the season, he's sticking with that prediction.

"I thought that we were going to be a competitive team no matter what," he said. "... There's going to be some time to learn, adjust and grow, but I'm happy with the way we're competing and I believe that we're a playoff team."

You may want to keep this on the down low. Some on here still think we are running "Elements" of the Triangle. You know cuz players are setting pikcs, at high post and making back cuts.

Think there is a miss connect here.

Right to the point the triangle wasn't run enough to have the heat on that it does. Nix posted up in the other thread direct quotes for Jeff on a month to month basis. Stating how they only were running triangle sets out of dead balls. In the same thread I posted a video of a dude who dissected over 400 half court sets over 4 games that varied in time. And some games we ran triangle in 10 out of 108 and another 4 out of 104. Between both actual hard data and specific details. How is something that was actually utilized so little taking the blame for majority of the ills?

The same argument used to defend the critique of Melo and his assignment of blame is being used against the triangle. So these principals only seem to be there for the people and things "some" choose to support and not in general.

When speaking about the triangle. The philosophies that were argued were about for one pace. Yet during the 54 win season we didn't seem to have a problem the 89 pace we ran as we feed to ball to Melo in the high post as everyone stood around and let him do his thing. This isn't a knock on Melo its a knock on the hypocrisy. Today we moved from a 96 pace to 96.8 pace(well now 95.9 pace good for 27th in the league). 2nd was about giving the PGs more ball control and less thinking. Yet look at our guard situation and guard play style today. 3rd was about hoisting up 3s. Knicks are 28th in attempts and 28th in makes yet are 16th in %.

The philosophies that were used to knock the triangle haven't been applied. All that has happen is the goal post has now moved from the big picture philosophies of pace, guard ball dominance, and 3s. And has been reduced to specific triangle sets which again were only ran from dead balls &/or 5%-10% game to game last season.

Truthfully this isn't even worth debating about any more until an better counter argument can actually be presented then the one currently in place.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/m/a9c22f1d-b1ec-3b22-8421-aa2bd83073ac/is-knicks%26%2339%3B-early-success.html

Is Knicks' early success the stuff of long-deferred playoff dreams?

The prevailing wisdom on the New York Knicks heading into this season was that they were going to be bad. Really bad.

So bad that the only thing worth talking about was how many games they'd lose -- and how many pingpong ball combinations they'd have in the NBA draft lottery.

But things obviously haven't played out that way.

After Friday's blowout loss to the Toronto Raptors in Canada, the Knicks are 8-7 and tied for eighth place in the Eastern Conference. We're less than a quarter of the way through the season, so it's too early to draw any strong conclusions. And the way the Knicks played on the road on Friday certainly was troubling. But scouts around the league who've watched over the first month of the season have been impressed.

"They move the ball well under [coach Jeff Hornacek]," one Western Conference scout said. "And, obviously, [Kristaps] Porzingis has been unreal. But they're playing hard around him on both ends of the floor."

So how did we get here? How did a team pegged as an afterthought end up over .500 a month into the season? And how long can it all last?

"If they keep playing with the effort they've given recently," the scout says, "they'll win their fair share of games."

To Hornacek, one of the biggest differences between last season's 31-win Knicks team and his group this season is the offense.

"Last year we were trying to combine a couple of things -- our style and the triangle style. We tried to mix it," he said, "This year we're not trying to mix it."

Yes, there was plenty of resistance to the triangle offense last season. That has been well documented. That resistance to the system -- which turned into a huge roadblock to success last season -- is gone. This season under Hornacek, players are operating in an open, perimeter-oriented approach with encouraging results.

Entering play Friday, the Knicks had the NBA's 10th-best offense (based on points per 100 possessions) and the ninth-best assist ratio in the league. Last season, New York finished 18th in offensive efficiency and 23rd in assist ratio. Some might attribute that to Carmelo Anthony's departure, but players and coaches say that it has more to do with offensive approach than anything else.

"This year you can feel that Jeff has more, he's running his own stuff without anybody coming in and telling him what to do or how to do," Porzingis said earlier this week on ESPN Radio's The Michael Kay Show. "So I think, from the top down, you can feel that there's more confidence in what we're doing. It's a better feeling this way."

Porzingis also has more freedom in his first season as the Knicks' primary scoring option.

Entering Friday's game against Toronto, Porzingis was taking six more shots per game and was making nearly 50 percent of his shots (40 percent from beyond the arc).

His offseason strength training, which focused on his core and lower half, has allowed him to be more effective in the post.

As Basketball Insiders' Tommy Beer notes, Porzingis had made 72 percent of his shots when a defender was within two feet of him this season, up from 47 percent last season. He has shown again and again this season that he's both comfortable and strong enough to turn and shoot over most defenders.

"He's just taking his time with all of his movements. He's not rushing anything," Hornacek said. "And that's when the game slows down. At 7-3, and his skills and his talent, the sky's the limit for him."

The Knicks have shown solid depth beyond Porzingis. They beat Utah on a night in which Porzingis wasn't putting up MVP-level numbers. Tim Hardaway Jr. picked things up with 26 points, continuing a run of strong play, Courtney Lee had 19 and Frank Ntilikina defended well down the stretch. It all added up to a solid come-from-behind win at home and more evidence that this Knicks team has put its 0-3 start in the rearview mirror.

"They were doubting themselves in the beginning," Hornacek said. "I don't think they doubt that they can play with any team in the league now. They have that confidence. They take losses hard. It's not just another game. They want to win every game."

That attitude is important, but it won't be enough to close the talent gap the Knicks will face against the better teams in the league. That was evident on Friday when DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry and the Raptors dominated the Knicks in Toronto.

Was that kind of loss the result you'd expect when you put a young team in a tough road environment against a veteran backcourt? Or are the Knicks simply ill-equipped to compete with the better teams in their conference? That's what Knicks management will have to figure out in the coming weeks. Things will get interesting if New York remains in playoff contention into February. At that point, will the front office of president Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry be aggressive at the trade deadline if the Knicks are still in the playoff picture?

Or, as many around the league expected coming into the season, will Mills and Perry look to shed some of the Knicks' long-term contracts at the deadline to free up cap space for the future?

That depends largely on what happens over the next 10 weeks. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The Knicks have had strong starts in the past two seasons only to crash and burn near the All-Star break. Two seasons ago, they were 22-22 before a long losing streak led to Derek Fisher's firing. Last season, they started the season 16-14 but stumbled amid on- and off-court controversies and finished with 51 losses.

"From the top the bottom, we wasn't on the same page and it showed on the court," said Derrick Rose, last season's starting point guard, who now plays for the Cavaliers.

Is this group on the same page? Porzingis believes so. That's why he thinks this group is better equipped to win consistently.

"That whole first part of the season we were playing well above .500 and we played off of our talent, just based on our energy. And we really didn't have the fundamentals," Porzingis said. "I felt we really didn't have the fundamentals as a team. And then this year the difference is we try to play hard defense for 48 minutes, we never give up. ... We're playing together, we're sharing the ball. And then everybody is involved and everybody's dangerous. I think we have a better connection this year as a team."

That's not to say that everything's perfect in the Big Apple.

The Knicks have played with consistent effort on defense but have their fair share of issues on that end of the court. They entered play Friday ranked 23rd in defensive efficiency and 27th in shots contested per 48 minutes. And that was before their 23-point loss to the Raptors. The coaching staff hopes that a new, consistent approach on the defensive end will help the players improve over the course of the season. Players are optimistic after constant tweaks to the defensive scheme left players confused.

"We didn't have the confidence 100 percent in each other and the system," Porzingis said of last season. "Now we're sticking to the same thing. And we know that some games it will work better [and] some games it will work not so well, but we know if we play hard and we follow that, we feel like any game is winnable."

In the big picture, the Knicks feel like they are in good shape. They're enthused by the play of Ntilikina and Hardaway -- two of the players they see as part of their young core around Porzingis. (That core also includes Willy Hernangomez, who is out of the rotation.)

But these players aren't interested in simply building for the future this season.

"It's so exciting to be with these guys, because we don't want to be good in the future. We want to be good right now," Ntilikina said earlier this month. "We want to grow up right now."

Just how good can the Knicks be this season? The projections don't paint a pretty picture. New York has a 28 percent chance of making the playoffs, per FiveThirtyEight's projections. ESPN's Basketball Power Index is even less bullish. It gives the Knicks a 12.7 percent chance of making the postseason.

But unlike most projections from outside observers, Porzingis felt before the season that the Knicks could make the postseason. Nearly one month into the season, he's sticking with that prediction.

"I thought that we were going to be a competitive team no matter what," he said. "... There's going to be some time to learn, adjust and grow, but I'm happy with the way we're competing and I believe that we're a playoff team."

You may want to keep this on the down low. Some on here still think we are running "Elements" of the Triangle. You know cuz players are setting pikcs, at high post and making back cuts.

Think there is a miss connect here.

Right to the point the triangle wasn't run enough to have the heat on that it does. Nix posted up in the other thread direct quotes for Jeff on a month to month basis. Stating how they only were running triangle sets out of dead balls. In the same thread I posted a video of a dude who dissected over 400 half court sets over 4 games that varied in time. And some games we ran triangle in 10 out of 108 and another 4 out of 104. Between both actual hard data and specific details. How is something that was actually utilized so little taking the blame for majority of the ills?

The same argument used to defend the critique of Melo and his assignment of blame is being used against the triangle. So these principals only seem to be there for the people and things "some" choose to support and not in general.

When speaking about the triangle. The philosophies that were argued were about for one pace. Yet during the 54 win season we didn't seem to have a problem the 89 pace we ran as we feed to ball to Melo in the high post as everyone stood around and let him do his thing. This isn't a knock on Melo its a knock on the hypocrisy. Today we moved from a 96 pace to 96.8 pace(well now 95.9 pace good for 27th in the league). 2nd was about giving the PGs more ball control and less thinking. Yet look at our guard situation and guard play style today. 3rd was about hoisting up 3s. Knicks are 28th in attempts and 28th in makes yet are 16th in %.

The philosophies that were used to knock the triangle haven't been applied. All that has happen is the goal post has now moved from the big picture philosophies of pace, guard ball dominance, and 3s. And has been reduced to specific triangle sets which again were only ran from dead balls &/or 5%-10% game to game last season.

Truthfully this isn't even worth debating about any more until an better counter argument can actually be presented then the one currently in place.

The only argument worth listening to on this matter has been made by the players, and the coaches. They hated the Triangle (except one) didnt like the backseat driving. The players and coaches have said it, the numbers back it up. I really have a hard time believing that anyone is still clinging to the notion that the Triangle in NY, was anything but a bad idea.

That is unless you believe that the players and coaches dont know what they're talking about, or aren't telling the truth. Its like still believing in the Horse and Carriage.

Wouldn't matter as they hardly ran the triangle. Or as Jeff would say call it a circle if you want.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/m/a9c22f1d-b1ec-3b22-8421-aa2bd83073ac/is-knicks%26%2339%3B-early-success.html

Is Knicks' early success the stuff of long-deferred playoff dreams?

The prevailing wisdom on the New York Knicks heading into this season was that they were going to be bad. Really bad.

So bad that the only thing worth talking about was how many games they'd lose -- and how many pingpong ball combinations they'd have in the NBA draft lottery.

But things obviously haven't played out that way.

After Friday's blowout loss to the Toronto Raptors in Canada, the Knicks are 8-7 and tied for eighth place in the Eastern Conference. We're less than a quarter of the way through the season, so it's too early to draw any strong conclusions. And the way the Knicks played on the road on Friday certainly was troubling. But scouts around the league who've watched over the first month of the season have been impressed.

"They move the ball well under [coach Jeff Hornacek]," one Western Conference scout said. "And, obviously, [Kristaps] Porzingis has been unreal. But they're playing hard around him on both ends of the floor."

So how did we get here? How did a team pegged as an afterthought end up over .500 a month into the season? And how long can it all last?

"If they keep playing with the effort they've given recently," the scout says, "they'll win their fair share of games."

To Hornacek, one of the biggest differences between last season's 31-win Knicks team and his group this season is the offense.

"Last year we were trying to combine a couple of things -- our style and the triangle style. We tried to mix it," he said, "This year we're not trying to mix it."

Yes, there was plenty of resistance to the triangle offense last season. That has been well documented. That resistance to the system -- which turned into a huge roadblock to success last season -- is gone. This season under Hornacek, players are operating in an open, perimeter-oriented approach with encouraging results.

Entering play Friday, the Knicks had the NBA's 10th-best offense (based on points per 100 possessions) and the ninth-best assist ratio in the league. Last season, New York finished 18th in offensive efficiency and 23rd in assist ratio. Some might attribute that to Carmelo Anthony's departure, but players and coaches say that it has more to do with offensive approach than anything else.

"This year you can feel that Jeff has more, he's running his own stuff without anybody coming in and telling him what to do or how to do," Porzingis said earlier this week on ESPN Radio's The Michael Kay Show. "So I think, from the top down, you can feel that there's more confidence in what we're doing. It's a better feeling this way."

Porzingis also has more freedom in his first season as the Knicks' primary scoring option.

Entering Friday's game against Toronto, Porzingis was taking six more shots per game and was making nearly 50 percent of his shots (40 percent from beyond the arc).

His offseason strength training, which focused on his core and lower half, has allowed him to be more effective in the post.

As Basketball Insiders' Tommy Beer notes, Porzingis had made 72 percent of his shots when a defender was within two feet of him this season, up from 47 percent last season. He has shown again and again this season that he's both comfortable and strong enough to turn and shoot over most defenders.

"He's just taking his time with all of his movements. He's not rushing anything," Hornacek said. "And that's when the game slows down. At 7-3, and his skills and his talent, the sky's the limit for him."

The Knicks have shown solid depth beyond Porzingis. They beat Utah on a night in which Porzingis wasn't putting up MVP-level numbers. Tim Hardaway Jr. picked things up with 26 points, continuing a run of strong play, Courtney Lee had 19 and Frank Ntilikina defended well down the stretch. It all added up to a solid come-from-behind win at home and more evidence that this Knicks team has put its 0-3 start in the rearview mirror.

"They were doubting themselves in the beginning," Hornacek said. "I don't think they doubt that they can play with any team in the league now. They have that confidence. They take losses hard. It's not just another game. They want to win every game."

That attitude is important, but it won't be enough to close the talent gap the Knicks will face against the better teams in the league. That was evident on Friday when DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry and the Raptors dominated the Knicks in Toronto.

Was that kind of loss the result you'd expect when you put a young team in a tough road environment against a veteran backcourt? Or are the Knicks simply ill-equipped to compete with the better teams in their conference? That's what Knicks management will have to figure out in the coming weeks. Things will get interesting if New York remains in playoff contention into February. At that point, will the front office of president Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry be aggressive at the trade deadline if the Knicks are still in the playoff picture?

Or, as many around the league expected coming into the season, will Mills and Perry look to shed some of the Knicks' long-term contracts at the deadline to free up cap space for the future?

That depends largely on what happens over the next 10 weeks. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The Knicks have had strong starts in the past two seasons only to crash and burn near the All-Star break. Two seasons ago, they were 22-22 before a long losing streak led to Derek Fisher's firing. Last season, they started the season 16-14 but stumbled amid on- and off-court controversies and finished with 51 losses.

"From the top the bottom, we wasn't on the same page and it showed on the court," said Derrick Rose, last season's starting point guard, who now plays for the Cavaliers.

Is this group on the same page? Porzingis believes so. That's why he thinks this group is better equipped to win consistently.

"That whole first part of the season we were playing well above .500 and we played off of our talent, just based on our energy. And we really didn't have the fundamentals," Porzingis said. "I felt we really didn't have the fundamentals as a team. And then this year the difference is we try to play hard defense for 48 minutes, we never give up. ... We're playing together, we're sharing the ball. And then everybody is involved and everybody's dangerous. I think we have a better connection this year as a team."

That's not to say that everything's perfect in the Big Apple.

The Knicks have played with consistent effort on defense but have their fair share of issues on that end of the court. They entered play Friday ranked 23rd in defensive efficiency and 27th in shots contested per 48 minutes. And that was before their 23-point loss to the Raptors. The coaching staff hopes that a new, consistent approach on the defensive end will help the players improve over the course of the season. Players are optimistic after constant tweaks to the defensive scheme left players confused.

"We didn't have the confidence 100 percent in each other and the system," Porzingis said of last season. "Now we're sticking to the same thing. And we know that some games it will work better [and] some games it will work not so well, but we know if we play hard and we follow that, we feel like any game is winnable."

In the big picture, the Knicks feel like they are in good shape. They're enthused by the play of Ntilikina and Hardaway -- two of the players they see as part of their young core around Porzingis. (That core also includes Willy Hernangomez, who is out of the rotation.)

But these players aren't interested in simply building for the future this season.

"It's so exciting to be with these guys, because we don't want to be good in the future. We want to be good right now," Ntilikina said earlier this month. "We want to grow up right now."

Just how good can the Knicks be this season? The projections don't paint a pretty picture. New York has a 28 percent chance of making the playoffs, per FiveThirtyEight's projections. ESPN's Basketball Power Index is even less bullish. It gives the Knicks a 12.7 percent chance of making the postseason.

But unlike most projections from outside observers, Porzingis felt before the season that the Knicks could make the postseason. Nearly one month into the season, he's sticking with that prediction.

"I thought that we were going to be a competitive team no matter what," he said. "... There's going to be some time to learn, adjust and grow, but I'm happy with the way we're competing and I believe that we're a playoff team."

You may want to keep this on the down low. Some on here still think we are running "Elements" of the Triangle. You know cuz players are setting pikcs, at high post and making back cuts.

Think there is a miss connect here.

Right to the point the triangle wasn't run enough to have the heat on that it does. Nix posted up in the other thread direct quotes for Jeff on a month to month basis. Stating how they only were running triangle sets out of dead balls. In the same thread I posted a video of a dude who dissected over 400 half court sets over 4 games that varied in time. And some games we ran triangle in 10 out of 108 and another 4 out of 104. Between both actual hard data and specific details. How is something that was actually utilized so little taking the blame for majority of the ills?

The same argument used to defend the critique of Melo and his assignment of blame is being used against the triangle. So these principals only seem to be there for the people and things "some" choose to support and not in general.

When speaking about the triangle. The philosophies that were argued were about for one pace. Yet during the 54 win season we didn't seem to have a problem the 89 pace we ran as we feed to ball to Melo in the high post as everyone stood around and let him do his thing. This isn't a knock on Melo its a knock on the hypocrisy. Today we moved from a 96 pace to 96.8 pace(well now 95.9 pace good for 27th in the league). 2nd was about giving the PGs more ball control and less thinking. Yet look at our guard situation and guard play style today. 3rd was about hoisting up 3s. Knicks are 28th in attempts and 28th in makes yet are 16th in %.

The philosophies that were used to knock the triangle haven't been applied. All that has happen is the goal post has now moved from the big picture philosophies of pace, guard ball dominance, and 3s. And has been reduced to specific triangle sets which again were only ran from dead balls &/or 5%-10% game to game last season.

Truthfully this isn't even worth debating about any more until an better counter argument can actually be presented then the one currently in place.

The only argument worth listening to on this matter has been made by the players, and the coaches. They hated the Triangle (except one) didnt like the backseat driving. The players and coaches have said it, the numbers back it up. I really have a hard time believing that anyone is still clinging to the notion that the Triangle in NY, was anything but a bad idea.

That is unless you believe that the players and coaches dont know what they're talking about, or aren't telling the truth. Its like still believing in the Horse and Carriage.

Wouldn't matter as they hardly ran the triangle. Or as Jeff would say call it a circle if you want.

Doesnt matter, much too much time was spent trying to integrate it into the offense. Hornacek should have been allowed to do his thing from day one. Again, the coaches and players have said very clearly that the Triangle, and Phil's crack like obsession with it, caused mostly problems. Dont listen to me, listen to them.

“Phil’s been great,” Hornacek added. “He’s not trying to take over and make us do anything. He’s giving us the leeway. There are some things that we do that aren’t the triangle stuff; our early stuff that quite honestly we probably thought he’d say ‘let’s not do that, or let’s not do this option.’ But he hasn’t said that at all.

“He’s just trying to give us hints on when we’re in the halfcourt sets. Just how to really execute it. It’s great help.”

If I remember KP was quoted stating he liked the triangle but players didn't buy in which lead to a report that Melo chewed him for for saying so.

But really none of this matters. As all of this is guess work. There is no real tangible hard data within any of these quotes. There were complaints that it was done half ass and they didn't emphasize it enough to be able to run it effectively when they did use it. Again tons of different comments about the triangle. Players didn't like it, who were the players? Rose has been horrible with the Cavs. Jennings I don't think is in the league. Melo is Melo but less efficient as I think his knee injury a couple yrs ago may have accelerated his decline.

If we have Rose, Jennings and Melo on this squad today instead of the players we have today running purely Jeff's Suns offense we are a worse team right now.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/m/a9c22f1d-b1ec-3b22-8421-aa2bd83073ac/is-knicks%26%2339%3B-early-success.html

Is Knicks' early success the stuff of long-deferred playoff dreams?

The prevailing wisdom on the New York Knicks heading into this season was that they were going to be bad. Really bad.

So bad that the only thing worth talking about was how many games they'd lose -- and how many pingpong ball combinations they'd have in the NBA draft lottery.

But things obviously haven't played out that way.

After Friday's blowout loss to the Toronto Raptors in Canada, the Knicks are 8-7 and tied for eighth place in the Eastern Conference. We're less than a quarter of the way through the season, so it's too early to draw any strong conclusions. And the way the Knicks played on the road on Friday certainly was troubling. But scouts around the league who've watched over the first month of the season have been impressed.

"They move the ball well under [coach Jeff Hornacek]," one Western Conference scout said. "And, obviously, [Kristaps] Porzingis has been unreal. But they're playing hard around him on both ends of the floor."

So how did we get here? How did a team pegged as an afterthought end up over .500 a month into the season? And how long can it all last?

"If they keep playing with the effort they've given recently," the scout says, "they'll win their fair share of games."

To Hornacek, one of the biggest differences between last season's 31-win Knicks team and his group this season is the offense.

"Last year we were trying to combine a couple of things -- our style and the triangle style. We tried to mix it," he said, "This year we're not trying to mix it."

Yes, there was plenty of resistance to the triangle offense last season. That has been well documented. That resistance to the system -- which turned into a huge roadblock to success last season -- is gone. This season under Hornacek, players are operating in an open, perimeter-oriented approach with encouraging results.

Entering play Friday, the Knicks had the NBA's 10th-best offense (based on points per 100 possessions) and the ninth-best assist ratio in the league. Last season, New York finished 18th in offensive efficiency and 23rd in assist ratio. Some might attribute that to Carmelo Anthony's departure, but players and coaches say that it has more to do with offensive approach than anything else.

"This year you can feel that Jeff has more, he's running his own stuff without anybody coming in and telling him what to do or how to do," Porzingis said earlier this week on ESPN Radio's The Michael Kay Show. "So I think, from the top down, you can feel that there's more confidence in what we're doing. It's a better feeling this way."

Porzingis also has more freedom in his first season as the Knicks' primary scoring option.

Entering Friday's game against Toronto, Porzingis was taking six more shots per game and was making nearly 50 percent of his shots (40 percent from beyond the arc).

His offseason strength training, which focused on his core and lower half, has allowed him to be more effective in the post.

As Basketball Insiders' Tommy Beer notes, Porzingis had made 72 percent of his shots when a defender was within two feet of him this season, up from 47 percent last season. He has shown again and again this season that he's both comfortable and strong enough to turn and shoot over most defenders.

"He's just taking his time with all of his movements. He's not rushing anything," Hornacek said. "And that's when the game slows down. At 7-3, and his skills and his talent, the sky's the limit for him."

The Knicks have shown solid depth beyond Porzingis. They beat Utah on a night in which Porzingis wasn't putting up MVP-level numbers. Tim Hardaway Jr. picked things up with 26 points, continuing a run of strong play, Courtney Lee had 19 and Frank Ntilikina defended well down the stretch. It all added up to a solid come-from-behind win at home and more evidence that this Knicks team has put its 0-3 start in the rearview mirror.

"They were doubting themselves in the beginning," Hornacek said. "I don't think they doubt that they can play with any team in the league now. They have that confidence. They take losses hard. It's not just another game. They want to win every game."

That attitude is important, but it won't be enough to close the talent gap the Knicks will face against the better teams in the league. That was evident on Friday when DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry and the Raptors dominated the Knicks in Toronto.

Was that kind of loss the result you'd expect when you put a young team in a tough road environment against a veteran backcourt? Or are the Knicks simply ill-equipped to compete with the better teams in their conference? That's what Knicks management will have to figure out in the coming weeks. Things will get interesting if New York remains in playoff contention into February. At that point, will the front office of president Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry be aggressive at the trade deadline if the Knicks are still in the playoff picture?

Or, as many around the league expected coming into the season, will Mills and Perry look to shed some of the Knicks' long-term contracts at the deadline to free up cap space for the future?

That depends largely on what happens over the next 10 weeks. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The Knicks have had strong starts in the past two seasons only to crash and burn near the All-Star break. Two seasons ago, they were 22-22 before a long losing streak led to Derek Fisher's firing. Last season, they started the season 16-14 but stumbled amid on- and off-court controversies and finished with 51 losses.

"From the top the bottom, we wasn't on the same page and it showed on the court," said Derrick Rose, last season's starting point guard, who now plays for the Cavaliers.

Is this group on the same page? Porzingis believes so. That's why he thinks this group is better equipped to win consistently.

"That whole first part of the season we were playing well above .500 and we played off of our talent, just based on our energy. And we really didn't have the fundamentals," Porzingis said. "I felt we really didn't have the fundamentals as a team. And then this year the difference is we try to play hard defense for 48 minutes, we never give up. ... We're playing together, we're sharing the ball. And then everybody is involved and everybody's dangerous. I think we have a better connection this year as a team."

That's not to say that everything's perfect in the Big Apple.

The Knicks have played with consistent effort on defense but have their fair share of issues on that end of the court. They entered play Friday ranked 23rd in defensive efficiency and 27th in shots contested per 48 minutes. And that was before their 23-point loss to the Raptors. The coaching staff hopes that a new, consistent approach on the defensive end will help the players improve over the course of the season. Players are optimistic after constant tweaks to the defensive scheme left players confused.

"We didn't have the confidence 100 percent in each other and the system," Porzingis said of last season. "Now we're sticking to the same thing. And we know that some games it will work better [and] some games it will work not so well, but we know if we play hard and we follow that, we feel like any game is winnable."

In the big picture, the Knicks feel like they are in good shape. They're enthused by the play of Ntilikina and Hardaway -- two of the players they see as part of their young core around Porzingis. (That core also includes Willy Hernangomez, who is out of the rotation.)

But these players aren't interested in simply building for the future this season.

"It's so exciting to be with these guys, because we don't want to be good in the future. We want to be good right now," Ntilikina said earlier this month. "We want to grow up right now."

Just how good can the Knicks be this season? The projections don't paint a pretty picture. New York has a 28 percent chance of making the playoffs, per FiveThirtyEight's projections. ESPN's Basketball Power Index is even less bullish. It gives the Knicks a 12.7 percent chance of making the postseason.

But unlike most projections from outside observers, Porzingis felt before the season that the Knicks could make the postseason. Nearly one month into the season, he's sticking with that prediction.

"I thought that we were going to be a competitive team no matter what," he said. "... There's going to be some time to learn, adjust and grow, but I'm happy with the way we're competing and I believe that we're a playoff team."

You may want to keep this on the down low. Some on here still think we are running "Elements" of the Triangle. You know cuz players are setting pikcs, at high post and making back cuts.

Think there is a miss connect here.

Right to the point the triangle wasn't run enough to have the heat on that it does. Nix posted up in the other thread direct quotes for Jeff on a month to month basis. Stating how they only were running triangle sets out of dead balls. In the same thread I posted a video of a dude who dissected over 400 half court sets over 4 games that varied in time. And some games we ran triangle in 10 out of 108 and another 4 out of 104. Between both actual hard data and specific details. How is something that was actually utilized so little taking the blame for majority of the ills?

The same argument used to defend the critique of Melo and his assignment of blame is being used against the triangle. So these principals only seem to be there for the people and things "some" choose to support and not in general.

When speaking about the triangle. The philosophies that were argued were about for one pace. Yet during the 54 win season we didn't seem to have a problem the 89 pace we ran as we feed to ball to Melo in the high post as everyone stood around and let him do his thing. This isn't a knock on Melo its a knock on the hypocrisy. Today we moved from a 96 pace to 96.8 pace(well now 95.9 pace good for 27th in the league). 2nd was about giving the PGs more ball control and less thinking. Yet look at our guard situation and guard play style today. 3rd was about hoisting up 3s. Knicks are 28th in attempts and 28th in makes yet are 16th in %.

The philosophies that were used to knock the triangle haven't been applied. All that has happen is the goal post has now moved from the big picture philosophies of pace, guard ball dominance, and 3s. And has been reduced to specific triangle sets which again were only ran from dead balls &/or 5%-10% game to game last season.

Truthfully this isn't even worth debating about any more until an better counter argument can actually be presented then the one currently in place.

The only argument worth listening to on this matter has been made by the players, and the coaches. They hated the Triangle (except one) didnt like the backseat driving. The players and coaches have said it, the numbers back it up. I really have a hard time believing that anyone is still clinging to the notion that the Triangle in NY, was anything but a bad idea.

That is unless you believe that the players and coaches dont know what they're talking about, or aren't telling the truth. Its like still believing in the Horse and Carriage.

Wouldn't matter as they hardly ran the triangle. Or as Jeff would say call it a circle if you want.

Doesnt matter, much too much time was spent trying to integrate it into the offense. Hornacek should have been allowed to do his thing from day one. Again, the coaches and players have said very clearly that the Triangle, and Phil's crack like obsession with it, caused mostly problems. Dont listen to me, listen to them.

“Phil’s been great,” Hornacek added. “He’s not trying to take over and make us do anything. He’s giving us the leeway. There are some things that we do that aren’t the triangle stuff; our early stuff that quite honestly we probably thought he’d say ‘let’s not do that, or let’s not do this option.’ But he hasn’t said that at all.

“He’s just trying to give us hints on when we’re in the halfcourt sets. Just how to really execute it. It’s great help.”

If I remember KP was quoted stating he liked the triangle but players didn't buy in which lead to a report that Melo chewed him for for saying so.

But really none of this matters. As all of this is guess work. There is no real tangible hard data within any of these quotes. There were complaints that it was done half ass and they didn't emphasize it enough to be able to run it effectively when they did use it. Again tons of different comments about the triangle. Players didn't like it, who were the players? Rose has been horrible with the Cavs. Jennings I don't think is in the league. Melo is Melo but less efficient as I think his knee injury a couple yrs ago may have accelerated his decline.

If we have Rose, Jennings and Melo on this squad today instead of the players we have today running purely Jeff's Suns offense we are a worse team right now.

Right, what would the coaches and players know about the offense they run every single day? Listen to them.

I feel like I have to pull Jeff Hornacek out from behind a sign (like Marshall McLuhan) and tell you you're flat out wrong. Even then I get the feeling that wouldnt be enough.

I've followed sports enough to not care for cherry picked quotes without full context. We're talking about the offense being the reason. Yet we're were down going into the 4th in multiple games and it has been the defensive turnups of Frank, Lance, KP pulling out these dubs. Offensively we have rode KP looking unguardable. Scoring all over the court over everyone hitting tough contested shots. First 3 games with Sessions at point we looked pretty bad and had Hardaway and Lee claiming that players don't know the plays and they are out there running around like they don't know what's going on. Now imagine if we had no Frank and Sessions had the clout if a Rose.I wonder what the narrative would be.

GustavBahler wrote:

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GustavBahler wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/m/a9c22f1d-b1ec-3b22-8421-aa2bd83073ac/is-knicks%26%2339%3B-early-success.html

Is Knicks' early success the stuff of long-deferred playoff dreams?

The prevailing wisdom on the New York Knicks heading into this season was that they were going to be bad. Really bad.

So bad that the only thing worth talking about was how many games they'd lose -- and how many pingpong ball combinations they'd have in the NBA draft lottery.

But things obviously haven't played out that way.

After Friday's blowout loss to the Toronto Raptors in Canada, the Knicks are 8-7 and tied for eighth place in the Eastern Conference. We're less than a quarter of the way through the season, so it's too early to draw any strong conclusions. And the way the Knicks played on the road on Friday certainly was troubling. But scouts around the league who've watched over the first month of the season have been impressed.

"They move the ball well under [coach Jeff Hornacek]," one Western Conference scout said. "And, obviously, [Kristaps] Porzingis has been unreal. But they're playing hard around him on both ends of the floor."

So how did we get here? How did a team pegged as an afterthought end up over .500 a month into the season? And how long can it all last?

"If they keep playing with the effort they've given recently," the scout says, "they'll win their fair share of games."

To Hornacek, one of the biggest differences between last season's 31-win Knicks team and his group this season is the offense.

"Last year we were trying to combine a couple of things -- our style and the triangle style. We tried to mix it," he said, "This year we're not trying to mix it."

Yes, there was plenty of resistance to the triangle offense last season. That has been well documented. That resistance to the system -- which turned into a huge roadblock to success last season -- is gone. This season under Hornacek, players are operating in an open, perimeter-oriented approach with encouraging results.

Entering play Friday, the Knicks had the NBA's 10th-best offense (based on points per 100 possessions) and the ninth-best assist ratio in the league. Last season, New York finished 18th in offensive efficiency and 23rd in assist ratio. Some might attribute that to Carmelo Anthony's departure, but players and coaches say that it has more to do with offensive approach than anything else.

"This year you can feel that Jeff has more, he's running his own stuff without anybody coming in and telling him what to do or how to do," Porzingis said earlier this week on ESPN Radio's The Michael Kay Show. "So I think, from the top down, you can feel that there's more confidence in what we're doing. It's a better feeling this way."

Porzingis also has more freedom in his first season as the Knicks' primary scoring option.

Entering Friday's game against Toronto, Porzingis was taking six more shots per game and was making nearly 50 percent of his shots (40 percent from beyond the arc).

His offseason strength training, which focused on his core and lower half, has allowed him to be more effective in the post.

As Basketball Insiders' Tommy Beer notes, Porzingis had made 72 percent of his shots when a defender was within two feet of him this season, up from 47 percent last season. He has shown again and again this season that he's both comfortable and strong enough to turn and shoot over most defenders.

"He's just taking his time with all of his movements. He's not rushing anything," Hornacek said. "And that's when the game slows down. At 7-3, and his skills and his talent, the sky's the limit for him."

The Knicks have shown solid depth beyond Porzingis. They beat Utah on a night in which Porzingis wasn't putting up MVP-level numbers. Tim Hardaway Jr. picked things up with 26 points, continuing a run of strong play, Courtney Lee had 19 and Frank Ntilikina defended well down the stretch. It all added up to a solid come-from-behind win at home and more evidence that this Knicks team has put its 0-3 start in the rearview mirror.

"They were doubting themselves in the beginning," Hornacek said. "I don't think they doubt that they can play with any team in the league now. They have that confidence. They take losses hard. It's not just another game. They want to win every game."

That attitude is important, but it won't be enough to close the talent gap the Knicks will face against the better teams in the league. That was evident on Friday when DeMar DeRozan, Kyle Lowry and the Raptors dominated the Knicks in Toronto.

Was that kind of loss the result you'd expect when you put a young team in a tough road environment against a veteran backcourt? Or are the Knicks simply ill-equipped to compete with the better teams in their conference? That's what Knicks management will have to figure out in the coming weeks. Things will get interesting if New York remains in playoff contention into February. At that point, will the front office of president Steve Mills and GM Scott Perry be aggressive at the trade deadline if the Knicks are still in the playoff picture?

Or, as many around the league expected coming into the season, will Mills and Perry look to shed some of the Knicks' long-term contracts at the deadline to free up cap space for the future?

That depends largely on what happens over the next 10 weeks. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The Knicks have had strong starts in the past two seasons only to crash and burn near the All-Star break. Two seasons ago, they were 22-22 before a long losing streak led to Derek Fisher's firing. Last season, they started the season 16-14 but stumbled amid on- and off-court controversies and finished with 51 losses.

"From the top the bottom, we wasn't on the same page and it showed on the court," said Derrick Rose, last season's starting point guard, who now plays for the Cavaliers.

Is this group on the same page? Porzingis believes so. That's why he thinks this group is better equipped to win consistently.

"That whole first part of the season we were playing well above .500 and we played off of our talent, just based on our energy. And we really didn't have the fundamentals," Porzingis said. "I felt we really didn't have the fundamentals as a team. And then this year the difference is we try to play hard defense for 48 minutes, we never give up. ... We're playing together, we're sharing the ball. And then everybody is involved and everybody's dangerous. I think we have a better connection this year as a team."

That's not to say that everything's perfect in the Big Apple.

The Knicks have played with consistent effort on defense but have their fair share of issues on that end of the court. They entered play Friday ranked 23rd in defensive efficiency and 27th in shots contested per 48 minutes. And that was before their 23-point loss to the Raptors. The coaching staff hopes that a new, consistent approach on the defensive end will help the players improve over the course of the season. Players are optimistic after constant tweaks to the defensive scheme left players confused.

"We didn't have the confidence 100 percent in each other and the system," Porzingis said of last season. "Now we're sticking to the same thing. And we know that some games it will work better [and] some games it will work not so well, but we know if we play hard and we follow that, we feel like any game is winnable."

In the big picture, the Knicks feel like they are in good shape. They're enthused by the play of Ntilikina and Hardaway -- two of the players they see as part of their young core around Porzingis. (That core also includes Willy Hernangomez, who is out of the rotation.)

But these players aren't interested in simply building for the future this season.

"It's so exciting to be with these guys, because we don't want to be good in the future. We want to be good right now," Ntilikina said earlier this month. "We want to grow up right now."

Just how good can the Knicks be this season? The projections don't paint a pretty picture. New York has a 28 percent chance of making the playoffs, per FiveThirtyEight's projections. ESPN's Basketball Power Index is even less bullish. It gives the Knicks a 12.7 percent chance of making the postseason.

But unlike most projections from outside observers, Porzingis felt before the season that the Knicks could make the postseason. Nearly one month into the season, he's sticking with that prediction.

"I thought that we were going to be a competitive team no matter what," he said. "... There's going to be some time to learn, adjust and grow, but I'm happy with the way we're competing and I believe that we're a playoff team."

You may want to keep this on the down low. Some on here still think we are running "Elements" of the Triangle. You know cuz players are setting pikcs, at high post and making back cuts.

Think there is a miss connect here.

Right to the point the triangle wasn't run enough to have the heat on that it does. Nix posted up in the other thread direct quotes for Jeff on a month to month basis. Stating how they only were running triangle sets out of dead balls. In the same thread I posted a video of a dude who dissected over 400 half court sets over 4 games that varied in time. And some games we ran triangle in 10 out of 108 and another 4 out of 104. Between both actual hard data and specific details. How is something that was actually utilized so little taking the blame for majority of the ills?

The same argument used to defend the critique of Melo and his assignment of blame is being used against the triangle. So these principals only seem to be there for the people and things "some" choose to support and not in general.

When speaking about the triangle. The philosophies that were argued were about for one pace. Yet during the 54 win season we didn't seem to have a problem the 89 pace we ran as we feed to ball to Melo in the high post as everyone stood around and let him do his thing. This isn't a knock on Melo its a knock on the hypocrisy. Today we moved from a 96 pace to 96.8 pace(well now 95.9 pace good for 27th in the league). 2nd was about giving the PGs more ball control and less thinking. Yet look at our guard situation and guard play style today. 3rd was about hoisting up 3s. Knicks are 28th in attempts and 28th in makes yet are 16th in %.

The philosophies that were used to knock the triangle haven't been applied. All that has happen is the goal post has now moved from the big picture philosophies of pace, guard ball dominance, and 3s. And has been reduced to specific triangle sets which again were only ran from dead balls &/or 5%-10% game to game last season.

Truthfully this isn't even worth debating about any more until an better counter argument can actually be presented then the one currently in place.

The only argument worth listening to on this matter has been made by the players, and the coaches. They hated the Triangle (except one) didnt like the backseat driving. The players and coaches have said it, the numbers back it up. I really have a hard time believing that anyone is still clinging to the notion that the Triangle in NY, was anything but a bad idea.

That is unless you believe that the players and coaches dont know what they're talking about, or aren't telling the truth. Its like still believing in the Horse and Carriage.

Wouldn't matter as they hardly ran the triangle. Or as Jeff would say call it a circle if you want.

Doesnt matter, much too much time was spent trying to integrate it into the offense. Hornacek should have been allowed to do his thing from day one. Again, the coaches and players have said very clearly that the Triangle, and Phil's crack like obsession with it, caused mostly problems. Dont listen to me, listen to them.

“Phil’s been great,” Hornacek added. “He’s not trying to take over and make us do anything. He’s giving us the leeway. There are some things that we do that aren’t the triangle stuff; our early stuff that quite honestly we probably thought he’d say ‘let’s not do that, or let’s not do this option.’ But he hasn’t said that at all.

“He’s just trying to give us hints on when we’re in the halfcourt sets. Just how to really execute it. It’s great help.”

If I remember KP was quoted stating he liked the triangle but players didn't buy in which lead to a report that Melo chewed him for for saying so.

But really none of this matters. As all of this is guess work. There is no real tangible hard data within any of these quotes. There were complaints that it was done half ass and they didn't emphasize it enough to be able to run it effectively when they did use it. Again tons of different comments about the triangle. Players didn't like it, who were the players? Rose has been horrible with the Cavs. Jennings I don't think is in the league. Melo is Melo but less efficient as I think his knee injury a couple yrs ago may have accelerated his decline.

If we have Rose, Jennings and Melo on this squad today instead of the players we have today running purely Jeff's Suns offense we are a worse team right now.

Right, what would the coaches and players know about the offense they run every single day? Listen to them.

I feel like I have to pull Jeff Hornacek out from behind a sign (like Marshall McLuhan) and tell you you're flat out wrong. Even then I get the feeling that wouldnt be enough.

I've followed sports enough to not care for cherry picked quotes without full context. We're talking about the offense being the reason. Yet we're were down going into the 4th in multiple games and it has been the defensive turnups of Frank, Lance, KP pulling out these dubs. Offensively we have rode KP looking unguardable. Scoring all over the court over everyone hitting tough contested shots. First 3 games with Sessions at point we looked pretty bad and had Hardaway and Lee claiming that players don't know the plays and they are out there running around like they don't know what's going on. Now imagine if we had no Frank and Sessions had the clout if a Rose.I wonder what the narrative would be.

If those quotes were taken out of context, I would understand your skepticism. I dont believe they leave any room for interpretation, they are happy the Triangle is out of the picture. Nothing "cherry picked" about that. Doesnt matter what offense Phil tried to plug in, as long as he was a backseat driver, it wasnt going to work. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but the evidence is overwhelming. The Triangle offense is no longer relevant in today's NBA and neither is Phil.

And there are quotes that Nix put up on him saying the tri isn't a big deal that its only a way to space the floor bball is bball yadda yadda yadda which you didn't respond to. I can probably go back to every post game article and take quotes from Jeff and his thoughts on each game. There are quotes from KP saying he likes the triangle but players needed to buy in. Last season we had MDA state that Melo was the one who forced him out. Gave the team an ultimatum which made him quit and that Melo didn't want to play the PF position even though that's what MDA wanted. Yet I didn't put blame on MDA's offense which didn't work with Melo. And I didn't put the blame on Melo either who clearly didn't enjoy playing in MDA's modern style of ball.

Makes sense him looking to mix in 2 different styles became difficult given the makeup of the team. Eliminating that aspect clear is more advantageous. Claiming that its the reason i'm not buying. As the triangle has nothing to do with tunnel vision, crappy defense, and poor effort. There is a reason why at the draft we went the complete opposite of a Rose type of player. Why Ron Baker was giving a 2 yr 4 mil extension while passing on a Rondo. Why Sessions and Jack were targeted over resigning Rose. We overhauled basically our whole back court. Why the Knicks didn't just hang on to Melo. Team has added purely coach friendly players this past off season over pure talent. This type of thought process was created based on what happened last season.

After loss vs Orlando

“If we’re asking a certain guy to pick up at half court, we have to know, is he capable of doing that?” Hornacek said Tuesday. “We might have three guys on the team or four guys that can do that, and the rest of them might not be able to. So we’ve got to put them in those positions that they’re capable of [handling]. We’ve got to figure out how as a team, what we’re going to do that lends to everybody’s capabilities.”

After loss vs LA

“You have to play for some pride,” Hornacek said. “If you come out there and just play basketball, you’re on the wrong level. These teams come in — it’s New York. You don’t match their effort and energy, you’re not going to win. Right from the start, [the Lakers] out-hustled. They got offensive rebounds, got long balls that bounded around the free-throw line. They got them all.

“We can continue to punish them, get more upset at them or give them positive talk. But we got to do it in practice. They won’t like it, but maybe it will get them going, a good, hard practice. I don’t care if we have a game the day after [against the Clippers].”
Press conference leading toward the season

After loss vs Kings

"I think they're trying. We might not be good defensively," Hornacek said. "We might have to start figuring out ways to trap and do some gimmicky defenses."

That would only work if the personnel can execute them, and Hornacek isn't sure they are.

"Maybe we're just not capable," Hornacek said. "I don't know. That's what we're going to have to figure out. We might have to play some of these other guys."

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/816302771980922880

After loss to Nuggets
https://www.msgnetworks.com/videos/hornacek-frustrated-with-knicks-defensive-efforts/

After loss to Suns

“I don’t think we came out with the intensity we needed to play the game,” Hornacek said.

Press Confrence leading into this season.

“The identity has to become defense first,” Hornacek said. “We’re not going to go out and outscore teams. We want to get back to the type of defense that the guys are putting it out there every single night…. You should be embarrassed (if an opponent scores on you). You should feel that guy can’t score on me. That’s the mentality you have every time you’re guarding the guy with the ball. Our team defense will have their rotations that they’ll be responsible for, something we’ll always follow and check up on. We really want to develop that mentality of when that guy has the ball, you’re not scoring on me.”