smackeddog wrote:I'd be happy with that- a high pick is what we need. This is the last year you can tank- becomes much more difficult after 2018 draft with the rule changes

Enough losses for a top pick this year would be great. A stretch like that though is a confidence crusher. Hoping we can pepper in just enough wins to keep the young guys' going.

Gudris wrote:or no ?

Yeah...I'll take the bet.

It will be one or the other.

Yup.

anrst wrote:when does Horny get canned?

If we lose we get a top pick. Nothing to be angry about. We know we're not winning a championship. Most of us think we're either scraping to the playoffs or sailing into the lottery.

I don't get how fans get so mad and city for every loss. "Fire" this guy and that guy. It's 2017. This is not the era where guys had to rely on the newspaper because they didn't have cable. We all have cable and the internet. We know how this goes. We absolutely need a lottery pick. There are like 5 superstars coming in the next draft. We're rebuilding. Win or lose outs a win for us

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

anrst wrote:when does Horny get canned?

All Star break? I think he should have been let go with Phil a long with Rambis if the goal was to have a fresh start and get rid of the dysfunction. Too much drama and losing last year on his watch. I don't think he has a roster he can win with and I don't think he will be able to get his guys to play all out for him like Kenny Atkinson is in Brooklyn. GMs need their own coach. Hopefully Perry chooses a good once Jeff is gone.

EVERY COACH needs players. Jeff isn't coaching the 2004 Pistons! Heck we just drafted Ntilikina and Dotson as the kind of 2Way players you need. The bulk of the team is full of bottom of the league defenders just as it was last season.

IMO you can only do so much to get players to improve. Horrible offensive players tend to continue to be horrible as do horrible defensive players. That's why you draft high level 2Way players. Jeff has an extremely tough job. He deserves a full chance to show what he can do but we know the task is tough. It's not because of Jeff that the Knicks are predicted to win less than 30 games!!!

Jeff was a big part of the mess and dysfunction from last year. KP skipped his exit meeting in part because of Jeff. Jeff had locker room troubles last year and some of that is on him. A lot of those guys from last year are back. Winning might fix those old issues. This team isn't going to win and has guys on it that already have had an unsuccessful experience with Jeff. Jeff doesn't ave a roster that is going to win a lot of games. But he does have a young team. If his team isn't playing hard for him he should be let go. I think he might have too much baggage to overcome with his returning players to get them to the place where they need to be as a team.

You and Woj keep pushing this idea that Jeff has some lingering issues with players still on the team from last year. Who do you see that's carrying or harboring an attitude this year? KP is only talking about wanting to win this year and I can't think of any other player that even remotely looks like he's got a problem with Jeff!

It's funny but I don't see Jeff's coaching stopping players from giving Max Effort like Dotson. If he had a bunch of players with his kind of desire that would make a huge difference. IMO it always starts with the players and the coach is there to guide, instruct and squeeze even more out each player but he can't magically create what isn't there.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

anrst wrote:when does Horny get canned?

All Star break? I think he should have been let go with Phil a long with Rambis if the goal was to have a fresh start and get rid of the dysfunction. Too much drama and losing last year on his watch. I don't think he has a roster he can win with and I don't think he will be able to get his guys to play all out for him like Kenny Atkinson is in Brooklyn. GMs need their own coach. Hopefully Perry chooses a good once Jeff is gone.

EVERY COACH needs players. Jeff isn't coaching the 2004 Pistons! Heck we just drafted Ntilikina and Dotson as the kind of 2Way players you need. The bulk of the team is full of bottom of the league defenders just as it was last season.

IMO you can only do so much to get players to improve. Horrible offensive players tend to continue to be horrible as do horrible defensive players. That's why you draft high level 2Way players. Jeff has an extremely tough job. He deserves a full chance to show what he can do but we know the task is tough. It's not because of Jeff that the Knicks are predicted to win less than 30 games!!!

Jeff was a big part of the mess and dysfunction from last year. KP skipped his exit meeting in part because of Jeff. Jeff had locker room troubles last year and some of that is on him. A lot of those guys from last year are back. Winning might fix those old issues. This team isn't going to win and has guys on it that already have had an unsuccessful experience with Jeff. Jeff doesn't ave a roster that is going to win a lot of games. But he does have a young team. If his team isn't playing hard for him he should be let go. I think he might have too much baggage to overcome with his returning players to get them to the place where they need to be as a team.

You and Woj keep pushing this idea that Jeff has some lingering issues with players still on the team from last year. Who do you see that's carrying or harboring an attitude this year? KP is only talking about wanting to win this year and I can't think of any other player that even remotely looks like he's got a problem with Jeff!

It's funny but I don't see Jeff's coaching stopping players from giving Max Effort like Dotson. If he had a bunch of players with his kind of desire that would make a huge difference. IMO it always starts with the players and the coach is there to guide, instruct and squeeze even more out each player but he can't magically create what isn't there.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

anrst wrote:when does Horny get canned?

All Star break? I think he should have been let go with Phil a long with Rambis if the goal was to have a fresh start and get rid of the dysfunction. Too much drama and losing last year on his watch. I don't think he has a roster he can win with and I don't think he will be able to get his guys to play all out for him like Kenny Atkinson is in Brooklyn. GMs need their own coach. Hopefully Perry chooses a good once Jeff is gone.

EVERY COACH needs players. Jeff isn't coaching the 2004 Pistons! Heck we just drafted Ntilikina and Dotson as the kind of 2Way players you need. The bulk of the team is full of bottom of the league defenders just as it was last season.

IMO you can only do so much to get players to improve. Horrible offensive players tend to continue to be horrible as do horrible defensive players. That's why you draft high level 2Way players. Jeff has an extremely tough job. He deserves a full chance to show what he can do but we know the task is tough. It's not because of Jeff that the Knicks are predicted to win less than 30 games!!!

Jeff was a big part of the mess and dysfunction from last year. KP skipped his exit meeting in part because of Jeff. Jeff had locker room troubles last year and some of that is on him. A lot of those guys from last year are back. Winning might fix those old issues. This team isn't going to win and has guys on it that already have had an unsuccessful experience with Jeff. Jeff doesn't ave a roster that is going to win a lot of games. But he does have a young team. If his team isn't playing hard for him he should be let go. I think he might have too much baggage to overcome with his returning players to get them to the place where they need to be as a team.

You and Woj keep pushing this idea that Jeff has some lingering issues with players still on the team from last year. Who do you see that's carrying or harboring an attitude this year? KP is only talking about wanting to win this year and I can't think of any other player that even remotely looks like he's got a problem with Jeff!

It's funny but I don't see Jeff's coaching stopping players from giving Max Effort like Dotson. If he had a bunch of players with his kind of desire that would make a huge difference. IMO it always starts with the players and the coach is there to guide, instruct and squeeze even more out each player but he can't magically create what isn't there.

Woj definitely has an agenda when it comes to Phil. I listened to Begley on Woj's pod and he did say that guys last year were frustrated with Jeff and that Jeff had to work on overcoming that. But Begley is with the team everyday and said some guys talked to him about this. So yeah, I think it is an issue. I think you are right about guys that are trying to get a roster spot putting out max effort. I am saying I don't think Jeff is going to be able to squeeze more out of each player on this team. I have mostly been watching the Yankees but I haven't seen the effort you describe so far when I watch the preseason games. Jeff is getting a chance. We disagree on whether his returning was the best thing for the team after what happened last year. I hope he is very successful and gets the culture right and the team playing the right way. Unfortunately, I don't think that is going to happen and I will be extremely surprised if he is back for the 18-19 season.

See I'm not convinced of these Begley or Woj angles cuz I think there are a few VETS from last year that I can easily imagine saying the kind of crap that they're talking about. We had a lot of Rookies last year and I know they weren't the ones talking. That leaves guys like Rose, Melo, CLee and Jennings. I can be pretty sure that some of these guys were doing the talking!!!

CLee seems to be just fine with things so I'm going to guess he's not carrying over any ill will towards Jeff. I'm not concerned with 1 or 2 guys being a little bent out of shape. What you're pointing to would be a HUGE problem if it was more like 5 or 6 guys, which I see ZERO evidence for believing is that case with this current roster. At this early stage of the season, i'm willing to bet everyone is on board and pulling in the same direction.

They may lose games but it's not necessarily cuz they've got an issue with Jeff. I'd put lack of talent hire up on the list. They're already behind most of the league due to injuries and youth. I don't expect they'll be able to fix all the issues by the 1st game of the season. We do need to see some progress over the 1st quarter of the season.