THjr's deal is worth $18mm a year. Thats 18% of the cap next year. Less than we signed Houston for.

They were the same age (24).
Houston had a TS% of .576
Hardaway had a TS% of .568

Houston had a WS/48 of .576
Hardaway had a WS/48 of .568

I dont think there is any doubt Houston was more productive at the same age, but not by much. Also Houston's contract was a year longer.

Obviously Houston turned out to be a good #2 scorer. THjr's hope is based on a sample size of about 30ish games. That is the risk. Its a legit risk. Overpaying for FAs always is. But this is not the headscratching move some are making it out to be, not by a long shot.

Using 18% of your cap on a guy who is slated to be a starter and your #2 or #3 scoring option and his 24 years old. Thats a terrible mind numbingly bad contract? Hard to see that. I think this deserves some perspective. Hopefully this is it.

All that being said I think they match.

THjr is an inefficient chucker that doesn't play defense or rebound. This is a signing you make when you're maybe trying to get over the hump for a championship, not a team ready to tank.

This was also a move to keep Melo around and happy. Melo was irate when we traded him in the first place which was one of the things that caused an original split between Phil and Melo.

Please God let the Hawk match. This is an Isiah Thomas type move that will further set the Knicks back years.

If THjr and Melo are two of your top 3 offensive options, you're gonna have a bad time filled with ugly basketball.

We ended up with Porzingis but never forget that THjr helped put us in a position to be worse when the games didn't matter.

These are the types of attitude to stay away from, not reward by overpaying.

Sinix wrote:THjr was also a guy that spoiled our chances to get a better draft pick one year.

We ended up with Porzingis but never forget that THjr helped put us in a position to be worse when the games didn't matter.

These are the types of attitude to stay away from, not reward by overpaying.

THJ has a bad attitude because he wanted to win a game?! The Nerve of him BTW, its managements job to tank for picks; players play. And the pick he cost us was Okafor?!

Uptown wrote:

Sinix wrote:THjr was also a guy that spoiled our chances to get a better draft pick one year.

We ended up with Porzingis but never forget that THjr helped put us in a position to be worse when the games didn't matter.

These are the types of attitude to stay away from, not reward by overpaying.

THJ has a bad attitude because he wanted to win a game?! The Nerve of him BTW, its managements job to tank for picks; players play. And the pick he cost us was Okafor?!

He has a bad attitude because he didn't put the team first. He put his own fortunes before the team.

The team as in the Knicks, the thing you should loyalty to over an overpaid chucker that doesn't rebound or play defense.

Players play according to what management and coaching tells them to do. It's a big no-no in ANY business to go into business for yourself when you have a team around you.

Sinix wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Sinix wrote:Wasn't Allan Houston a regular all star by th'e point he got that contract? And the Knicks were planning on competing for a championship regularly?

THjr is an inefficient chucker that doesn't play defense or rebound. This is a signing you make when you're maybe trying to get over the hump for a championship, not a team ready to tank.

This was also a move to keep Melo around and happy. Melo was irate when we traded him in the first place which was one of the things that caused an original split between Phil and Melo.

Please God let the Hawk match. This is an Isiah Thomas type move that will further set the Knicks back years.

If THjr and Melo are two of your top 3 offensive options, you're gonna have a bad time filled with ugly basketball.

The bold is not correct. Not correct at all. Maybe go look at some #s and come back this discussion.

I said the same thing to sinix in another thread but I guess they haven't had time to look up his stats. THjr only had one inefficient year. Say whatever else about him you will but he has been efficient on a decent usg.

I remember when he was a Knick. I watched all those games.

He was so good in Atlanta he had a D-League stint.

We're paying 80 mil and we could find a player just as productive in the D League.

Sinix wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Sinix wrote:THjr was also a guy that spoiled our chances to get a better draft pick one year.

We ended up with Porzingis but never forget that THjr helped put us in a position to be worse when the games didn't matter.

These are the types of attitude to stay away from, not reward by overpaying.

THJ has a bad attitude because he wanted to win a game?! The Nerve of him BTW, its managements job to tank for picks; players play. And the pick he cost us was Okafor?!

He has a bad attitude because he didn't put the team first. He put his own fortunes before the team.

The team as in the Knicks, the thing you should loyalty to over an overpaid chucker that doesn't rebound or play defense.

Players play according to what management and coaching tells them to do. It's a big no-no in ANY business to go into business for yourself when you have a team around you.

For the no defense chucker crowd:
THjr's EFG% last year: .545
THjr's opponents last year: .471

Thats a considerable margin. He is not only NOT getting lit up he's considerably more efficient than whoever he is guarding.

Hardway also had the highest + on the team and Milsap had a lower -, and Milsap and THjr were almost the same there. The Hawks played their best ball with THjr and their worst without him. The numbers show that as well. Very clearly.

Again... all reasons I think they match.

fishmike wrote:

Sinix wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Sinix wrote:THjr was also a guy that spoiled our chances to get a better draft pick one year.

We ended up with Porzingis but never forget that THjr helped put us in a position to be worse when the games didn't matter.

These are the types of attitude to stay away from, not reward by overpaying.

THJ has a bad attitude because he wanted to win a game?! The Nerve of him BTW, its managements job to tank for picks; players play. And the pick he cost us was Okafor?!

He has a bad attitude because he didn't put the team first. He put his own fortunes before the team.

The team as in the Knicks, the thing you should loyalty to over an overpaid chucker that doesn't rebound or play defense.

Players play according to what management and coaching tells them to do. It's a big no-no in ANY business to go into business for yourself when you have a team around you.

is this is your argument you arent bringing anything to the table. The dude is playing for his NBA career. His coach wants to win the game, but you think its a negative because it hurt the Knicks draft. Right. Anything else?

For the no defense chucker crowd:
THjr's EFG% last year: .545
THjr's opponents last year: .471

Thats a considerable margin. He is not only NOT getting lit up he's considerably more efficient than whoever he is guarding.

Hardway also had the highest + on the team and Milsap had a lower -, and Milsap and THjr were almost the same there. The Hawks played their best ball with THjr and their worst without him. The numbers show that as well. Very clearly.

Again... all reasons I think they match.

538's projection tool has Tim providing $39.6M in value for next 5 yrs. NY signed him to offer sheet for $71M/4 yrs.

Sinix wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Sinix wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Sinix wrote:Wasn't Allan Houston a regular all star by th'e point he got that contract? And the Knicks were planning on competing for a championship regularly?

THjr is an inefficient chucker that doesn't play defense or rebound. This is a signing you make when you're maybe trying to get over the hump for a championship, not a team ready to tank.

This was also a move to keep Melo around and happy. Melo was irate when we traded him in the first place which was one of the things that caused an original split between Phil and Melo.

Please God let the Hawk match. This is an Isiah Thomas type move that will further set the Knicks back years.

If THjr and Melo are two of your top 3 offensive options, you're gonna have a bad time filled with ugly basketball.

The bold is not correct. Not correct at all. Maybe go look at some #s and come back this discussion.

I said the same thing to sinix in another thread but I guess they haven't had time to look up his stats. THjr only had one inefficient year. Say whatever else about him you will but he has been efficient on a decent usg.

I remember when he was a Knick. I watched all those games.

He was so good in Atlanta he had a D-League stint.

We're paying 80 mil and we could find a player just as productive in the D League.

The d league stint was early in the year...when he rejoined the team, he one of their best players. Im in the A and I watched a ton of Hawks games and by the end of the year, heading into the playoffs he was their second best player behind Milsap....

What team lets a 24-25 year old player that's one of their best leave? Name me one in the history of the NBA.

You're simply wrong. He's not a productive player.

He doesn't play a team game or do the little things that help teams win. The one thing he can do well, he's ultra streaky at. He was the same streaky shooter on the Knicks. Maybe every once in a while he has a decent shooting game but when he's not shooting well he's nothing but drain. Whereas when other people aren't shooting well they are maybe locking down their opponent or helping with ball movement.

I've seen Hawks fan talk about him. He's not worth anywhere near 80 mil. I'd be nervous about even giving him half that.

anything else you want to be wrong about?

fishmike wrote:

Sinix wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Sinix wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Sinix wrote:Wasn't Allan Houston a regular all star by th'e point he got that contract? And the Knicks were planning on competing for a championship regularly?

THjr is an inefficient chucker that doesn't play defense or rebound. This is a signing you make when you're maybe trying to get over the hump for a championship, not a team ready to tank.

This was also a move to keep Melo around and happy. Melo was irate when we traded him in the first place which was one of the things that caused an original split between Phil and Melo.

Please God let the Hawk match. This is an Isiah Thomas type move that will further set the Knicks back years.

If THjr and Melo are two of your top 3 offensive options, you're gonna have a bad time filled with ugly basketball.

The bold is not correct. Not correct at all. Maybe go look at some #s and come back this discussion.

I said the same thing to sinix in another thread but I guess they haven't had time to look up his stats. THjr only had one inefficient year. Say whatever else about him you will but he has been efficient on a decent usg.

I remember when he was a Knick. I watched all those games.

He was so good in Atlanta he had a D-League stint.

We're paying 80 mil and we could find a player just as productive in the D League.

The d league stint was early in the year...when he rejoined the team, he one of their best players. Im in the A and I watched a ton of Hawks games and by the end of the year, heading into the playoffs he was their second best player behind Milsap....

What team lets a 24-25 year old player that's one of their best leave? Name me one in the history of the NBA.

You're simply wrong. He's not a productive player.

He doesn't play a team game or do the little things that help teams win. The one thing he can do well, he's ultra streaky at. He was the same streaky shooter on the Knicks. Maybe every once in a while he has a decent shooting game but when he's not shooting well he's nothing but drain. Whereas when other people aren't shooting well they are maybe locking down their opponent or helping with ball movement.

I've seen Hawks fan talk about him. He's not worth anywhere near 80 mil. I'd be nervous about even giving him half that.

James Harden recently. Billups was signed at 24 with the MLE. The Kings had Whiteside and Isiah Thomas on their roster and didnt want to pay them. Both around the age you mention.

anything else you want to be wrong about?

Those aren't what I'm talking about.

Whiteside was in the D-league for anyone to pick up. He wasn't considered a top young talent for the Kings like you are saying THjr is for the Hawks.

If we got Timmy out of the D-league for a min contract, this wouldn't be a problem.

We're paying 80 million.

As for Harden- OKC couldn't pay him and they traded him for pieces that would give them depth. They didn't let him walk for nothing.

Hawks have the availability to pay THjr and keep their young talent.

If he's half as productive as you're talking about, this wouldn't even be a question for him.

We're overplaying for a mediocre talent. FACT. One that doesn't do the little things that make a team a winner too.

This is what Isiah Thomas did for like a decade and it set us back like another decade. I feel like I'm time travelling as I'm seeing a move like this.

Sinix wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Sinix wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Sinix wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Sinix wrote:Wasn't Allan Houston a regular all star by th'e point he got that contract? And the Knicks were planning on competing for a championship regularly?

THjr is an inefficient chucker that doesn't play defense or rebound. This is a signing you make when you're maybe trying to get over the hump for a championship, not a team ready to tank.

This was also a move to keep Melo around and happy. Melo was irate when we traded him in the first place which was one of the things that caused an original split between Phil and Melo.

Please God let the Hawk match. This is an Isiah Thomas type move that will further set the Knicks back years.

If THjr and Melo are two of your top 3 offensive options, you're gonna have a bad time filled with ugly basketball.

The bold is not correct. Not correct at all. Maybe go look at some #s and come back this discussion.

I said the same thing to sinix in another thread but I guess they haven't had time to look up his stats. THjr only had one inefficient year. Say whatever else about him you will but he has been efficient on a decent usg.

I remember when he was a Knick. I watched all those games.

He was so good in Atlanta he had a D-League stint.

We're paying 80 mil and we could find a player just as productive in the D League.

The d league stint was early in the year...when he rejoined the team, he one of their best players. Im in the A and I watched a ton of Hawks games and by the end of the year, heading into the playoffs he was their second best player behind Milsap....

What team lets a 24-25 year old player that's one of their best leave? Name me one in the history of the NBA.

You're simply wrong. He's not a productive player.

He doesn't play a team game or do the little things that help teams win. The one thing he can do well, he's ultra streaky at. He was the same streaky shooter on the Knicks. Maybe every once in a while he has a decent shooting game but when he's not shooting well he's nothing but drain. Whereas when other people aren't shooting well they are maybe locking down their opponent or helping with ball movement.

I've seen Hawks fan talk about him. He's not worth anywhere near 80 mil. I'd be nervous about even giving him half that.

James Harden recently. Billups was signed at 24 with the MLE. The Kings had Whiteside and Isiah Thomas on their roster and didnt want to pay them. Both around the age you mention.

anything else you want to be wrong about?

Those aren't what I'm talking about.

Whiteside was in the D-league for anyone to pick up. He wasn't considered a top young talent for the Kings like you are saying THjr is for the Hawks.

If we got Timmy out of the D-league for a min contract, this wouldn't be a problem.

We're paying 80 million.

As for Harden- OKC couldn't pay him and they traded him for pieces that would give them depth. They didn't let him walk for nothing.

Hawks have the availability to pay THjr and keep their young talent.

If he's half as productive as you're talking about, this wouldn't even be a question for him.

We're overplaying for a mediocre talent. FACT. One that doesn't do the little things that make a team a winner too.

This is what Isiah Thomas did for like a decade and it set us back like another decade. I feel like I'm time travelling as I'm seeing a move like this.

Isiah Thomas? Sorry how many picks are we signing to Atl in the sign and trade? Oh right none. Another non-point made by you.