But Lakers won 02', 09' and '10 after the rule went into effect running the triangle offense.

Can anyone add anything to what Rose said? To me the game has adapted to where the big lumbering 5 is now able to shoot from longer distance and the game is producing better outside shooting which is the only way to open up the interior, but as far as Zones negating the triangle, to me if your moving the ball effectively and moving, your creating space.

A quick google does have diagrams on how to use a triangle to beat some zones. Jaelen rose is a former NBA player and all star, he knows what he is talking about.
Phil is the all time winningest coach. He knows what he is talking about.
Im the one asking.

Also Rose is only talking about the Half Court aspects of the system. There's still a lot of Early Offense that can happen before you even get to the Side Triangle looks. A lot depends on the makeup of the roster and lineup on the floor. Not all rosters are the same despite running Triangle and this will change what you feature out of the Triangle.

The Triangle being a very flexible Motion Offense can easily be switched up. The thing is that the Knicks aren't running just a basic Triangle offense anymore. The stuff that Jeff has added is making it less predictable and more free flowing. Anyone watching the way Jeff had the team playing could see that they were much more uptempo and free flowing. They attacked more quickly before settling for a Side Triangle. Jeff used the Drag Screen or PnR early.

Gudris wrote:They had Kobe(guard) and Jordan(guard), we need great guard to win with Triangle

You need great players to win with any system. Phil happened to have couple of guards.

Al of that does not mean you need great guards to win with Triangle.

Nalod wrote:

nixluva wrote:Well the first problem with what Rose said is that he's only really talking about ONE aspect of the Triangle Offense. There's a LOT more to the system than the Side Triangle. Also a huge part of the effectiveness is the Talent level of the players involved. If you have great players with breakdown ability or shooting they will be able to score out of just about any kind of look. There are built in responses to Zone defenses in the Triangle.

Also Rose is only talking about the Half Court aspects of the system. There's still a lot of Early Offense that can happen before you even get to the Side Triangle looks. A lot depends on the makeup of the roster and lineup on the floor. Not all rosters are the same despite running Triangle and this will change what you feature out of the Triangle.

The Triangle being a very flexible Motion Offense can easily be switched up. The thing is that the Knicks aren't running just a basic Triangle offense anymore. The stuff that Jeff has added is making it less predictable and more free flowing. Anyone watching the way Jeff had the team playing could see that they were much more uptempo and free flowing. They attacked more quickly before settling for a Side Triangle. Jeff used the Drag Screen or PnR early.

Rose was laughing saying there was a "Bermuda Triangle", that was when Bulls cleared out (pre zone) and Mike just ISO and who ever was guarding him was toast!

Phil adapted to this because he realized the value of using a great player's individual abilities. Nothing wrong with this mixed in with Team Oriented style. He asked Melo to limit the needless holding of the ball. Melo basically gave him his ass to kiss. How long was Phil supposed to take that?

EnySpree wrote:

martin wrote:

Gudris wrote:They had Kobe(guard) and Jordan(guard), we need great guard to win with Triangle

You need great players to win with any system. Phil happened to have couple of guards.

Al of that does not mean you need great guards to win with Triangle.

Im at my wits end with this...

The triangle is the only offense that gets all this bad wrap. It's also the only offense aside from the Prinston offense that has an official name in basketball.

At first they said you needed a dominant center to run the triangle... but Phil won with Jordan as the Main scorer. Then he goes to the Lakers who already had Shaq and Kobe and got them to win. He got Kobe to defer to Shaq. Then Shaq leaves and they Winn again with Kobe as the number one. 11 championships but the offense can only work one way or blah blah blah....

Im just sick of it. This is coming from a knick fan that hated losing to the triangle in the 90s. I didn't like it back then but at least I understood what they were trying to do. Most people that make comments don't even know what they are looking at.

For my nerves I just want Phil to go away so I don't have to hear people complain about the offense all the time like it's a living thing..... my heart and head knows that the offense isn't the problem. We have chemistry, leadership and talent issues. We fix those issues we can start to win again. Simply playing a different style isn't going to all of a sudden get this current group to the finals. It's just so exhausting everyday talking about this.

To add, the offense everyone wants us to run? We were running it first with Dantoni When everyone was saying nobody could win playing like that. It's like shut the **** up already

What he said. Unfortunately our lack of leadership on the floor and sulking stars have already tainted the youth. KP has been led to believe that is ok to be a diva and play the victim while taking plays off on defense. I am not down with his behavior during end of season. Unfortunately the NBA seems to be fostering these types of "stars" and a whole genre of "FANS" have evolved to defend and support them. I am not being nostalgic, I just want to see good clean competitive basketball where the players and referees aren't always deferring to the "stars". This broad based star fukking has destroyed the game. It is so pervasive now that you have people calling you hater and insulting your intelligence every time you speak out against it. Sucks to be a basketball fan these days.

Nalod wrote:It will be Steve Mills. Continuity. the Starphuch system is gone. After phil you'll likely see in-house promotions.

I have heard it mentioned several times that Dolan is fond of Ujiri. His deal is up with Toronto the same year Phil is done in ny. I think he would be a great hire.
Continuity in the area where the Knicks are inadequate is troubling. Roster continuity and coaching continuity are two areas where the Knicks rank towards the bottom. I don't know if the current roster is the one to start the continuity with though. The Knicks have 8 undrafted players and 2 second round picks out of a roster of 15. I love character guys but this roster is lacking in talent.

Nalod wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:It will be Steve Mills. Continuity. the Starphuch system is gone. After phil you'll likely see in-house promotions.

I have heard it mentioned several times that Dolan is fond of Ujiri. His deal is up with Toronto the same year Phil is done in ny. I think he would be a great hire.
Continuity in the area where the Knicks are inadequate is troubling. Roster continuity and coaching continuity are two areas where the Knicks rank towards the bottom. I don't know if the current roster is the one to start the continuity with though. The Knicks have 8 undrafted players and 2 second round picks out of a roster of 15. I love character guys but this roster is lacking in talent.

Wouldn't any new president GM knicks hired three years ago also clean house? With little to trade with and lacking quality first round picks of our own would any new talent not have also reconstructed the roster and done so to give opportunity and done so with care to the cap? Wouldn't any new GM also taken some risks procuring talent? Sometimes its assumed if Phil was not the man, some mystic with hindsight clarity would have come in and created magic from the corpse of Tyson, Felton, Bargs, JR and Shump!

TO fully appreciate what Ujiri has done is to also appreciate what he didn't, and understand the assets in place he had when he took over and how he used them. Its not like Toronto and knicks were mirror images of each other. I like the guy. Where is Dolan on record saying he likes him? This like 3 years ago? Why didn't we go after him when he left Denver?

I remember when we all frothed over Bryan Colangelo when he had Toronto all abuzz! The key is not if Dolan is on record complimenting Ujiri, but is he fond of Dolan??? Why in gods name would he want to come here?
Why in two years would you want to tear it down again and rebuild after 5 years? By then the two handed set shot might be all the rage in the NBA!!

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:It will be Steve Mills. Continuity. the Starphuch system is gone. After phil you'll likely see in-house promotions.

I have heard it mentioned several times that Dolan is fond of Ujiri. His deal is up with Toronto the same year Phil is done in ny. I think he would be a great hire.
Continuity in the area where the Knicks are inadequate is troubling. Roster continuity and coaching continuity are two areas where the Knicks rank towards the bottom. I don't know if the current roster is the one to start the continuity with though. The Knicks have 8 undrafted players and 2 second round picks out of a roster of 15. I love character guys but this roster is lacking in talent.

Wouldn't any new president GM knicks hired three years ago also clean house? With little to trade with and lacking quality first round picks of our own would any new talent not have also reconstructed the roster and done so to give opportunity and done so with care to the cap? Wouldn't any new GM also taken some risks procuring talent? Sometimes its assumed if Phil was not the man, some mystic with hindsight clarity would have come in and created magic from the corpse of Tyson, Felton, Bargs, JR and Shump!

TO fully appreciate what Ujiri has done is to also appreciate what he didn't, and understand the assets in place he had when he took over and how he used them. Its not like Toronto and knicks were mirror images of each other. I like the guy. Where is Dolan on record saying he likes him? This like 3 years ago? Why didn't we go after him when he left Denver?

I remember when we all frothed over Bryan Colangelo when he had Toronto all abuzz! The key is not if Dolan is on record complimenting Ujiri, but is he fond of Dolan??? Why in gods name would he want to come here?
Why in two years would you want to tear it down again and rebuild after 5 years? By then the two handed set shot might be all the rage in the NBA!!

Four coaches, three roster resets, a questionable ability to assess free agents and talent, giving up more than he gets on all but one trade, emphasizing an offense that focuses on mid range shots, trying to build a roster to fit a system he isn't coaching, creating a dysfunctional situation when he stated he was going to create a winning culture, making his team a destination that no one other than marginal free agents or old, injury prone free agents will come to,Giving out horrific franchise handcuffing contracts, trashing hs franchise player, alienating his future star and possibly his best friend( Willy is a Melo guy and liked his tweet).... What exactly is being torn down? Phil has shown he is pretty good at getting guys that go 10-15 on the roster but play the right way. Phil brought in Gaines and Rambis. He brought in Jeff but his mentoring and Rambis's role has stripped the team of any identity Jeff was going to give it.
I would love if Dolan hire Ujiri. I am terrified of Mills running things again but he might be better than Phil.

Drama:

Four coaches? Two, Fish and Jeff. Woodson was never his guy. If he kept him, you'd complain "Why keep him"?
He about had Kerr which in his generosity and friendship let go to better gig in GSW. Kerr's illness in his second year and subsequent problems would lead me to believe he would have resigned. coaching a rebuild is painful enough!
I don't count Rambis who was temporary nor Woodson who never coached under his watch.

As for roster resets, you make it sound like a bad thing.
Trade values are subjective, you don't know the offers that were out there, so you can only assume.
Dysfunctional environment is also caused by blunt honesty and no bull culture. Players are paid to do a job, do the job.
You can take Rose and Noah as a negative, or Phil fulfilling a promise to surround Melo with talent while not sacrificing draft picks or toots. It didn't work out this year. Still won more games than year before despite playoff roster talent.
With mills you allow no room for a man to grow and increase his ability. Mills is bright, well respected and you only base him on the Isiah days with Dolan full on meddling. I get the negative slant but fundamentally look whats changed over the three years:

Stopped trading picks for stupid short term attempts. We basically did not surround Melo with talent, but he also signed on to this platform.
Turning over the roster yes, but mostly with youths who are given a chance.
Sticking to a culture. There is not talent base worthy of bending and molding around otherwise. You see it as stubborn, I see it as a disincline and resolve. If Fish not on board, then "Gone". Any other player not on board for "Team First" adherence to the culture, "GONE"......Want to come here as a free agent, you come to be a knick, not use the team for a vessel to increase your next contract. If you can't, Buh Bye!!! That was Brandon Jennings.
This creates confusion and havoc? OK, so be it. KP has years before he is free to bold and if he does it will cost him big time. 7'3 man of incredible talent made a dumb choice to leave without exit meeting. You think Phil or any exec of a team he coached in 20 years ever made a mistake? Phil is chill with that stuff. If him and KP can't work it out in the next few years, they will work it out. If Phil is intolerant and dumb, he'll be gone in two years. All I see is a man trying to undue years of mismanagement. I see the team as he took over in far worse shape that perhaps you do and thus why I am more forgiving. You get the benefit of hindsight, like JR paired with Lebron and two other allstars as "Man, we gave him up for too little!!". I look at the clown untying shoe laces enroute to a 17 win season and not thinking on top of all the other crap he has done, this near 30 year old man is clueless! Shump was told by woodson to focus on basketball, not hair and music and we see a guy of incredible potential not really get better. Next to Lebron, he got a 40mil contract. This is not a guy we need. Not hating him, but its one thing to be a role player on the cave, another as a starter on Knicks. He was here, he did not perform and was due to be paid or be set free.

Im sure you have your justifications for your position as do I with Mine. Expectations play a big role and perhaps phials salary does too. Dolans money is not your money, and none of Phils goes against the cap.

So basically if you told me three years ago:

We'd gut the team
Stop trading picks
develop yoot.
Hire young coach's outside the tired pool
Win more games each year than the year before.
Resign our reigning starphuch.
with just one pick in three draft a cornerstone legit talent.
Get lucky with a Eurostash pick.

I'd be happy.

If in that quest mistakes were indeed made. Non fatal. Fist up would be noah but fact is we do't know the full outcome of the contract despite the not so favorable statistical odds.
Other Risks were taken, outcome not positive and the system spit out one young out of the box coach in replaced with another good man who got spit out of a rebuild with problems not of his making (Gaining experience, a learning tool!!!) then one should not be surprised. Better than tired retreads, right?

Disappointed perhaps, but not to the extent that we have no future. Phil has tested the faith of many, especially those who were suspect of his hiring. To some, Phil was the Bulls figurehead who devised evil schemes to deny Knicks glory in the Ewing Era. To some of us older guys he was the lanky defensive guy who part of the intellect that was our greatest moments ever. A mentor of Holzman, the god man coach of "Hit the open man". A man who wrote books and we read them. Thats why some of us are bound to believe from day one that Phil, who also loves the city, wanted to come here and make things right. To do that takes big money. Dolan got it like that. We choose Willis Reed as our starphuch figure head when in fact we should have bought Phil back and developed him to coach. That was then. Who knew Phil would be the coach he became?

Im hoping that a plan, even when it is not working is still better than impulse management. We did that for years and years. We all wanted results faster but after three years is it better to keep forging ahead or start fresh again. I am not optimistic nor full of pessimism, I'm jut along for the ride the owners of the team decide one. Our voice does not factor into decision making.