You mentioned agenda but thats a matter of perspective...You, sir, seem to have the agenda because any anti phil article or comment, you feel a need to start your own thread (so everyone can see it) to counter any article/thread that may put phil in a negative light.

The realist in me says: phil has lost 166 games in his 3yrs here.

The realist in me says: phil said in the press conference that "you dont change people" yet, phil still gave Melo the money and the NTC hoping Melo would change?! Asinine!!!!

The realist in me wonders: phil is an exec, yet he's stopping practices, is in the film room, running triangle camps? What exec does this? You got phil, Rambis and Hornacek all coaching the team and you can't undertsand why there would be confusion on the players part? You think Checketts and Grunfeld were in Riley's film room?

The realists in me wonders: phil said in the presser that Rambis know the offense better than Hornacek! So what the f*** is Hornaceks role here?!

The realists in me says: why have a HS-like traingle training camp over the summer, then hire a coach and allow him to run his on system which would go against the purpose of said training camp, then scrap the coaches system and go back to the triangle knowing it would cause confusion and step all over the toes of the coach?

There's more but you get my point.....

CrushAlot wrote:Even Araton went after Phil and he takes every opportunity he can get to slam Melo.

What does that really prove? In the end these are all just opinions from people that don't really matter. For Phil the only opinion that matters is Dolan's!

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:Any organization run by a 60+ year old that says that it isn’t in transition is either naïve or disingenuous. For that reason, when I was about 60 (seven years ago), Bridgewater started its management and equity transition, with a goal of having others replace me.

-Ray Dalio

Holfresh, how old are you? You seem to have very little regard for a persons capacity at advanced ages. At 70 years old, there is a wide range of ability sole dependent on the individual.

And yes, knicks might very well have a succession plan. It might not be for public consumption. Im going to guess you don't have a clue as to what it is, so you jump to conclude it must be non existent or chaotic. cuz thats what you do.

Ray Dalio is the owner and founder of the investment firm you mentioned. Phil is the president of basketball operations. I find no correlation between the two. Phil did not build the Knicks nor is he responsible for the formula of success. That is a work in progress, or perhaps decline.

Are you that bent on finding every angle humanly possible to prove some point? Phil is here on a 5 year contract. No correlation in my mind between him and Ray Dalio.

While I didn't expect you to wholeheartedly agree with me citing Ray Dalio, I did think there may be some comparable scenarios or two things that could have been taken away, given what we are seeing with the Knicks...For a guy who wants day to day input on style of play, Phil doesn't relate to his players... Is it age or "Phil"osophy or something else, you are right, I don't know...Phil said he called KP during the press conference to let him know it was a good thing he didn't take a three point shot during a game...The game has moved on and three point shots at a higher percentage are a critical part of strategy and winning games...The players recognize that and Phil hanging on to a legacy that was pervasive 20 years ago when players 3 point shooting percentage have improved significantly the last 3/4 years is really not a good look..

Two, he is implementing a style that won't be long lasting, so why is he doing it??..The next President of Basketball will not force the triangle on his players, so why say you are building on something that will not be lasting?? He got the question during the press conference and he fumbled it..He even tried to mock the person asking the question by saying "you get it now" after a muddled answer but the reporter didn't let him off the hook by saying yes...So he labored on...There is a huge disconnect with the players, his head coach, the press and the fans...And he doesn't care...Maybe he feels he has accomplished too much in this league to be questioned by minions..Unfortunately he might be right, but that is what the job entails...

So Ray Dalio's reason on why he is stepping down may seem simplistic or age discriminatory or may not make management of the financial and sports world relatable, it does seem to have some far reaching tenets we can draw upon to explain the pitfalls and the muck ups we are seeing from Phil...

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:Nalod had to start his own thread? Nalod couldn't post this in the thread that's already discussing this?

You mentioned agenda but thats a matter of perspective...You, sir, seem to have the agenda because any anti phil article or comment, you feel a need to start your own thread (so everyone can see it) to counter any article/thread that may put phil in a negative light.

The realist in me says: phil has lost 166 games in his 3yrs here.

The realist in me says: phil said in the press conference that "you dont change people" yet, phil still gave Melo the money and the NTC hoping Melo would change?! Asinine!!!!

The realist in me wonders: phil is an exec, yet he's stopping practices, is in the film room, running triangle camps? What exec does this? You got phil, Rambis and Hornacek all coaching the team and you can't undertsand why there would be confusion on the players part? You think Checketts and Grunfeld were in Riley's film room?

The realists in me wonders: phil said in the presser that Rambis know the offense better than Hornacek! So what the f*** is Hornaceks role here?!

The realists in me says: why have a HS-like traingle training camp over the summer, then hire a coach and allow him to run his on system which would go against the purpose of said training camp, then scrap the coaches system and go back to the triangle knowing it would cause confusion and step all over the toes of the coach?

There's more but you get my point.....

I don't have a problem with Phil taking a more of an active role as far as practices, and going over game film. If its going to be the Triangle or bust, Id rather see Phil run every practice, be the de facto coach behind the scenes. Let Hornacek watch how Phil does things. I see that as a better way to go, players, coaches, would know what to expect. It would also give him a chance to spend more time with the players, get to know them better, and vice versa.

Id rather scrap the triangle altogether, but Phil needs to play a larger role in teaching the system, or he needs to let Jeff coach whatever he wants. Right now he is in a gray area that is not doing the team any good.

First off, the only reason Phil is here is because of the lucrative salary and perks Dolan offered. So he's here for the money first. Second, the reason he is not coaching is because of age and health reasons. Since he still has the itch, and is insisting Triangle all the time, he should have just hired Rambis (The last of the triangle-Mohicans) to run the system.

I have a major problem with phil interrupting practices and being in the film room. I will give you an example. I'm a Language Arts teacher. My principal taught Language arts for almost 20 yrs before becoming a principal. When I interviewed for the job, she hired me based on my resume in which I pointed out my experiences, practices, etc. By hiring me, she entrusted me to do what my resume says I can do.

Not one time, has she entered my classroom while I'm teaching, sat in the back and interrupted my lesson and snatched the dry erase marker from my hand and teach the kids what I thought I was hired to teach them on my own. If she did that, I would have told her to keep the damn marker and teach the damn class herself. We have weekly meetings, not with the principal, but with other LA teachers and we have a Lead-LA teacher (Head Coach?) who facilitates the meetings. The principal will join us from time to time to be up to date on whats going on. She may offer a suggestion here and there but NEVER in front of the students. Key word suggestions, but ultimately the team of teachers are responsible to do the job we were hired to do.

Since phil is in the film room and at practices and is allowed to take over and stop practices as he see's fit, it makes one wonder if Jeff was hired not because of his abilities, but was hired to be a yes man. Seems as if phil wanted to hire Rambis, but he knew there be some backlash, so the next best thing to do is hire someone, as Barkley says, that can be "Controlled".

This is a mess all the way around man....

nixluva wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:Nalod had to start his own thread? Nalod couldn't post this in the thread that's already discussing this?

You mentioned agenda but thats a matter of perspective...You, sir, seem to have the agenda because any anti phil article or comment, you feel a need to start your own thread (so everyone can see it) to counter any article/thread that may put phil in a negative light.

The realist in me says: phil has lost 166 games in his 3yrs here.

The realist in me says: phil said in the press conference that "you dont change people" yet, phil still gave Melo the money and the NTC hoping Melo would change?! Asinine!!!!

The realist in me wonders: phil is an exec, yet he's stopping practices, is in the film room, running triangle camps? What exec does this? You got phil, Rambis and Hornacek all coaching the team and you can't undertsand why there would be confusion on the players part? You think Checketts and Grunfeld were in Riley's film room?

The realists in me wonders: phil said in the presser that Rambis know the offense better than Hornacek! So what the f*** is Hornaceks role here?!

The realists in me says: why have a HS-like traingle training camp over the summer, then hire a coach and allow him to run his on system which would go against the purpose of said training camp, then scrap the coaches system and go back to the triangle knowing it would cause confusion and step all over the toes of the coach?

There's more but you get my point.....

I don't have a problem with Phil taking a more of an active role as far as practices, and going over game film. If its going to be the Triangle or bust, Id rather see Phil run every practice, be the de facto coach behind the scenes. Let Hornacek watch how Phil does things. I see that as a better way to go, players, coaches, would know what to expect. It would also give him a chance to spend more time with the players, get to know them better, and vice versa.

Id rather scrap the triangle altogether, but Phil needs to play a larger role in teaching the system, or he needs to let Jeff coach whatever he wants. Right now he is in a gray area that is not doing the team any good.

First off, the only reason Phil is here is because of the lucrative salary and perks Dolan offered. So he's here for the money first. Second, the reason he is not coaching is because of age and health reasons. Since he still has the itch, and is insisting Triangle all the time, he should have just hired Rambis (The last of the triangle-Mohicans) to run the system.

I have a major problem with phil interrupting practices and being in the film room. I will give you an example. I'm a Language Arts teacher. My principal taught Language arts for almost 20 yrs before becoming a principal. When I interviewed for the job, she hired me based on my resume in which I pointed out my experiences, practices, etc. By hiring me, she entrusted me to do what my resume says I can do.

Not one time, has she entered my classroom while I'm teaching, sat in the back and interrupted my lesson and snatched the dry erase marker from my hand and teach the kids what I thought I was hired to teach them on my own. We have weekly meetings, not with the principal, but with other LA teachers and we have a Lead-LA teacher (Head Coach?) who facilitates the meetings. The principal will join us from time to time to be up to date on whats going on. She may offer a suggestion here and there but NEVER in front of the students. Key word suggestions, but ultimately the team of teachers are responsible to do the job we were hired to do.

Since phil is in the film room and at practices and is allowed to take over and stop practices as he see's fit, it makes one wonder if Jeff was hired not because of his abilities, but was hired to be a yes man. Seems as if phil wanted to hire Rambis, but he knew there be some backlash, so the next best thing to do is hire someone, as Barkley says, that can be "Controlled".

This is a mess all the way around man....

Jeff agreed to this situation and is still on board with it. He agreed to Phil and Rambis. He agreed to the Triangle. Jeff is not a hostage.

Phil approves of the changes Jeff made to the Triangle and was pleased with how the team responded to close out the season. So really this isn't stopping Jeff from getting his players to buy in and give effort. The team was fighting to the finish.

As I said, Jeff was hired because he can be "Controlled" as Barkley mentioned...He agreed because he wanted a job. If Phil approved of the changes, why did phil change from Jeff's early offense, back to the triangle half-way through the season?

And this idea of giving credit to millionaire athletes for finishing out the 82 game schedule and doing what they are paid to do is getting tired. They finished 2-4 over the last 6 games, with guys fighting for NBA contracts. Not to mention playing against teams resting, getting ready for the payoffs and in Philly's case playing a D-League roster.

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:As I said, Jeff was hired because he can be "Controlled" as Barkley mentioned...He agreed because he wanted a job. If Phil approved of the changes, why did phil change from Jeff's early offense, back to the triangle half-way through the season?

I am trying to think of a situation between front office and coaching where you can't say the same thing when you hire someone new.

I think the ideal situation for any team is when front office and coaching are on the same page. It's starts with the front office having an idea of what the like and finding that coach to implement it. By itself, is that controlling?

I want to say that all young coaching are indeed more heavily influenced by front offices, that just make sense. Is that "control"?

There is an obvious back and forth between front office and coaching. They are on the same page, or at least they should be. If front office makes a suggestion - even on the coaches like - is that controlling?

For an example Pat Riley hired Spoelstra not because he was this seasoned vet with hard set ideas. Pat new Spoelstra was young and moldable.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:As I said, Jeff was hired because he can be "Controlled" as Barkley mentioned...He agreed because he wanted a job. If Phil approved of the changes, why did phil change from Jeff's early offense, back to the triangle half-way through the season?

I am trying to think of a situation between front office and coaching where you can't say the same thing when you hire someone new.

I think the ideal situation for any team is when front office and coaching are on the same page. It's starts with the front office having an idea of what the like and finding that coach to implement it. By itself, is that controlling?

I want to say that all young coaching are indeed more heavily influenced by front offices, that just make sense. Is that "control"?

There is an obvious back and forth between front office and coaching. They are on the same page, or at least they should be. If front office makes a suggestion - even on the coaches like - is that controlling?

Agreed that you want the front office and coach on the same page. Most if not all successful franchises feature front offices and coaches that are on the same page. But if this organization were truly on the same page, wouldn't you expect that the players were on the same page as front office and coach? If so, why is it coming out from multiple outlets, inside and outside of the organization that the players were confused and that its a mess from top to bottom (KP's words)?

If they were truly on the same page, why the sudden change from Hornacks early offense back to a more traditional triangle offense? Was this not discussed? Also, if they were on the same page, during the press conference, why did Phil refer to Rambis as the knower of the offense and not Jeff?

The Knicks are still using Jeff's early Motion stuff. They simply re-emphasized the Triangle Fundamentals. Just watch any Knicks game and you'll see that the Knicks are running a motion offense with PnR with the Triangle as well.

Phil spoke about how he was pleased with Jeff's offense and how the kids play with energy and teamwork. There is no issue from Top to Bottom. KP was not saying that the confusion was an ON GOING thing but that there WAS confusion but they were getting on track. This is clear when you read his full statement in context.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/04/sports/basketball/jeff-hornacek-knicks-new-coach-says-triangle-will-be-part-of-offense.html?_r=0

Not surprisingly, the second question at the news conference was about the triangle offense that is so closely identified with Jackson and how much Hornacek intended to use it. Hornacek’s answer was that he would use it, or at least key elements of it, but that he would employ other offensive strategies as well.

In other words, Hornacek indicated that he saw the triangle as part of a larger offensive philosophy, an answer Jackson seemed fine with.

“Am I going to run the triangle?” Hornacek said. “I would say I wouldn’t call it the triangle. There’s a lot of aspects of the triangle — the spacing, the cuts off hitting the post — that are not unique to the triangle.”

“It’s all part of basketball, and Jeff recognizes that,” Jackson said.

At several moments in the news conference, Jackson tried to intersperse bits of humor into the occasion, at one point comparing the challenging quest for quality cafeteria food at the Knicks’ practice complex to the difficulty in beating out other teams for free agents.

At other times, he was more direct.

“We’ve started all over again,” Jackson said of the Knicks. “We’ve cleaned our roster, we’ve garnered money and space, and we’ve changed the context of what this team is.”