franco12 wrote:we're still in the lottery next year as well, if that is what you are asking.

AWESOME! And I am totally serious about that.

My dream: Knicks get 1-3 pick because Stern sneaks back in for a night with the envelopes. Knicks trade Melo and do not resign Rose. 1 more year of tank. And then 15 years of glory.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:we're still in the lottery next year as well, if that is what you are asking.

AWESOME! And I am totally serious about that.

My dream: Knicks get 1-3 pick because Stern sneaks back in for a night with the envelopes. Knicks trade Melo and do not resign Rose. 1 more year of tank. And then 15 years of glory.

Where do I sign? We should do a referendum and send it to Dolan.

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Unless you get Ball or Fultz--everyone else has growing pains ahead of them. They could be good--but if you have wild expectation on year 1--no way

I'm not talking about any expectations for year 1. I'm talking long-term, having 2 star players to build around-it changes the trajectory of this team completely.

Exactly!!! Teams that draft 2 Star quality players tend to be more successful. This shouldn't be about instant results. This is a long term process.

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Unless you get Ball or Fultz--everyone else has growing pains ahead of them. They could be good--but if you have wild expectation on year 1--no way

I'm not talking about any expectations for year 1. I'm talking long-term, having 2 star players to build around-it changes the trajectory of this team completely.

Exactly!!! Teams that draft 2 Star quality players tend to be more successful. This shouldn't be about instant results. This is a long term process.

Building a good core is about hitting on multiple picks within a small time-frame. The way Golden state hit on Curry, Klay, and Green within a couple years of each other. So they can grow together and share prime years together. So if the rebuild began in 2015 with KP, than we have to hit on 2017 and 2018. Willy can be included as well. Because after that, KP will be getting late into his rookie contract and there becomes much more of a rush to build a win-now team. That's the problem New Orleans has. They are trying different things because it might be too late to draft a couple of 19 year olds to build alongside 24 year old Anthony Davis. Really, these next 2 drafts will make or break this team for the next 5-10 years.

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Unless you get Ball or Fultz--everyone else has growing pains ahead of them. They could be good--but if you have wild expectation on year 1--no way

I'm not talking about any expectations for year 1. I'm talking long-term, having 2 star players to build around-it changes the trajectory of this team completely.

Exactly!!! Teams that draft 2 Star quality players tend to be more successful. This shouldn't be about instant results. This is a long term process.

Building a good core is about hitting on multiple picks within a small time-frame. The way Golden state hit on Curry, Klay, and Green within a couple years of each other. So they can grow together and share prime years together. So if the rebuild began in 2015 with KP, than we have to hit on 2017 and 2018. Willy can be included as well. Because after that, KP will be getting late into his rookie contract and there becomes much more of a rush to build a win-now team. That's the problem New Orleans has. They are trying different things because it might be too late to draft a couple of 19 year olds to build alongside 24 year old Anthony Davis. Really, these next 2 drafts will make or break this team for the next 5-10 years.

Very well said. We absolutely need to hit on this draft to build the tandem with KP and player X, and eliminate any Anthony Davis-like situations for our franchise player. However, New Orleans had the misfortune of working with poor draft classes since they took Davis in 2012. Could they have tanked better? Yes, but that's a different story. The Knicks have the good fortune of being in a GREAT draft class to find a gem to pair with KP. Capitalizing on this draft is one of the most important decisions this franchise will ever make.

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Unless you get Ball or Fultz--everyone else has growing pains ahead of them. They could be good--but if you have wild expectation on year 1--no way

I'm not talking about any expectations for year 1. I'm talking long-term, having 2 star players to build around-it changes the trajectory of this team completely.

Exactly!!! Teams that draft 2 Star quality players tend to be more successful. This shouldn't be about instant results. This is a long term process.

Building a good core is about hitting on multiple picks within a small time-frame. The way Golden state hit on Curry, Klay, and Green within a couple years of each other. So they can grow together and share prime years together. So if the rebuild began in 2015 with KP, than we have to hit on 2017 and 2018. Willy can be included as well. Because after that, KP will be getting late into his rookie contract and there becomes much more of a rush to build a win-now team. That's the problem New Orleans has. They are trying different things because it might be too late to draft a couple of 19 year olds to build alongside 24 year old Anthony Davis. Really, these next 2 drafts will make or break this team for the next 5-10 years.

this. People here have said this has needed to happen for a long time. Now that its happening its a disaster, we suck and Phil is the worst.

It's a silver lining to the absolutely atrocious job Phil did trying to build a contender through trades and free agency. Obviously most Knicks fans are fine with finally (hopefully) rebuilding through the draft. But to act like this was the plan Phil preached from the beginning is a massive, stinky pile of horse manure, man.

Remember Phil dangling the promise of cap room to sign two all-stars in 2015? That's how he got Melo to take less money that year, so we could add two max players. Then the team wins 17 games (when Phil predicted playoffs, he actually thought the Jose Calderon and Samuel Dalembert trade for Tyson Chandler and Felton would make them better!) and looks like a mess running the Triangle and we get Rolo and Afflalo, because no A-list or even B-list free agent will touch this team. He hits on KP in the draft, for which we're all eternally grateful.

Then 2016, he fires his coach, and swings for the fences with Rose (giving up a promising young PG and a competent cheap center) and Noah. Then he dicks Melo around in the media, alienating free agents across the league in the process. Not even mentioning the coaching back and forths and the Triangle will they or won't they game he's been playing.

He backed into rebuilding through the draft. And it's great he didn't trade any picks (though worth nothing that he could not trade the 2015 pick or the 2017 pick when he got here, since the 2014 and 2016 picks were already traded by previous regimes - he did try offering the 2018 pick for Teague in 2015, but the Hawks thought the pick was too far out).

We're in a good position with the draft now. I hope like hell we get a stud this year and next year, too. But to act like this was all part of Phil's master plan is a little much. It's a contingency plan. And I'm happy we're finally doing it - it's the ONLY way to build a team, imho. We need two years of good picks and then maybe look at Free Agency in 2018 summer.

franco12 wrote:we're still in the lottery next year as well, if that is what you are asking.

And we need to be- we need some high lottery picks, at least this year and next season at the very least.

Knixkik wrote:What if we land a star with this top pick? Let's say a guard. A guard that fits with Porzingis perfectly. Phil Jackson would be 2 for 2 on striking gold in the lottery. If we are going to be really bad, this is the year to be really bad. This is one of the deepest lotteries in the past 15 years, and it's mainly deep at guard. How many teams out there have 2 young stars who fit together perfectly? Milwaukee has Giannis, and even though Parker is nice, injuries seem to be plaguing his career. Same with Philly. Their 2 young building blocks can't get on the floor. Phoenix? LAL? Orlando? I don't see any future stars, let alone 2. Minn is the closest thing, and it's easy to see that Towns and Wiggins aren't exactly a match made in heaven. If we land a good starting player, than that is great. But if we land a star player who fits nicely along KP, it will change the trajectory of the franchise. All it takes is 2 stars. Putting pieces around them is the easy part. There will be a star drafted outside of the top 5, we need to find that player.

if we get a superstar in the making this draft...that would be 3 on 3 for striking gold. hernangomez amazes me more and more. he's like a learning computer, neural net processor, terminator, skynet all that sheet look at where he started his rookie season and where he is now in a few months.

fishmike wrote:

Zebo13 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Unless you get Ball or Fultz--everyone else has growing pains ahead of them. They could be good--but if you have wild expectation on year 1--no way

I'm not talking about any expectations for year 1. I'm talking long-term, having 2 star players to build around-it changes the trajectory of this team completely.

Exactly!!! Teams that draft 2 Star quality players tend to be more successful. This shouldn't be about instant results. This is a long term process.

Building a good core is about hitting on multiple picks within a small time-frame. The way Golden state hit on Curry, Klay, and Green within a couple years of each other. So they can grow together and share prime years together. So if the rebuild began in 2015 with KP, than we have to hit on 2017 and 2018. Willy can be included as well. Because after that, KP will be getting late into his rookie contract and there becomes much more of a rush to build a win-now team. That's the problem New Orleans has. They are trying different things because it might be too late to draft a couple of 19 year olds to build alongside 24 year old Anthony Davis. Really, these next 2 drafts will make or break this team for the next 5-10 years.

this. People here have said this has needed to happen for a long time. Now that its happening its a disaster, we suck and Phil is the worst.

It's a silver lining to the absolutely atrocious job Phil did trying to build a contender through trades and free agency. Obviously most Knicks fans are fine with finally (hopefully) rebuilding through the draft. But to act like this was the plan Phil preached from the beginning is a massive, stinky pile of horse manure, man.

Remember Phil dangling the promise of cap room to sign two all-stars in 2015? That's how he got Melo to take less money that year, so we could add two max players. Then the team wins 17 games (when Phil predicted playoffs, he actually thought the Jose Calderon and Samuel Dalembert trade for Tyson Chandler and Felton would make them better!) and looks like a mess running the Triangle and we get Rolo and Afflalo, because no A-list or even B-list free agent will touch this team. He hits on KP in the draft, for which we're all eternally grateful.

Then 2016, he fires his coach, and swings for the fences with Rose (giving up a promising young PG and a competent cheap center) and Noah. Then he dicks Melo around in the media, alienating free agents across the league in the process. Not even mentioning the coaching back and forths and the Triangle will they or won't they game he's been playing.

He backed into rebuilding through the draft. And it's great he didn't trade any picks (though worth nothing that he could not trade the 2015 pick or the 2017 pick when he got here, since the 2014 and 2016 picks were already traded by previous regimes - he did try offering the 2018 pick for Teague in 2015, but the Hawks thought the pick was too far out).

We're in a good position with the draft now. I hope like hell we get a stud this year and next year, too. But to act like this was all part of Phil's master plan is a little much. It's a contingency plan. And I'm happy we're finally doing it - it's the ONLY way to build a team, imho. We need two years of good picks and then maybe look at Free Agency in 2018 summer.

I agree with all of this but in Phils defense I think there was a lot of pressure to compete this year and last year with the amount of money we're paying Melo as well as his limited prime years. He made some moves and put together a team that could compete and win, albeit rarely, against any team in the league on a given night. With the salary cap going up I don't think Noah's contract is quite as bad as it appears and Lee is a good player with a good salary for the future as a starter or stud bench player. We've devoloped and discovered some good talent and glue guys to fill in some roles with KP and who we draft this year being the main future focus. And who knows, on a functional two way team Melo will likely be a lot better at team defense and ball movement.

I would say it has NOT been "absolutely atrocious" by any stretch. People like to harp on how all in Phil was with his win now and how badly he tanked but the bottom line is he didnt trade picks, and the Knicks unprotected #1 and future #1s in this FA market have great value. Phil has clearly exhausted every means.. Europe, D league, 2nd round.. to bring in and develop young talent. So yes.. he was utterly failed to get this group to contend NO, he has not been absolutely atrocious because the losing season will yield what we all know this franchise needs above ALL else.. more high end young talent.

He got guys for Melo. Everyone knows Phil asked Melo if they were moving fast enough. Maybe its Melo. Maybe its the roster Phil built. There has been a tear down and thats OK. The trades have been below average for sure. Even if guys like NDour, Plumlee, Randal or Baker never pan they show a good crop of guys to bring in and look at. I dont see us over focusing on one type of player. Thats been part of the problem.. Phil has failed to assemble and fitting parts. Truly a clumsy roster! But I do remain patient because I also see a commitment to build here. The had Melo. Worth a shot. No picks were spent in that shot. Next phase. I dont think its any more complicated.

That's fair - as long as we're committed to the next phase. Phil hasn't actually said anything about the state of the Knicks since September. I'd like to see word come down to start playing the young guys more and actually seeing what we have in guys like Randle and Kuz and Plumlee. I'll be very curious to hear what Phil has to say about this year after the season is over. I'm assuming he will address the media in mid April after exit interviews. Backing into a rebuild isn't the worst thing. And as many of us admit - that's what we need. Probably at least two to three years of being young and kinda bad and getting good picks in 2017, 18 and even 19. That clearly should be the plan. But unless Phil was performing a three year Jedi mind trick, I think it's fair to say that was not his plan coming in.