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The Politics of Moving Melo
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NardDogNation
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1/26/2017  6:10 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  6:12 PM
I've been a proponent of moving Melo- my favorite modern day player- for quite some time but I do wonder what the optics of it will look like around the league and into the future. This will be the 2nd star since the Ewing era (Marbury being the first) that the franchise has turned on and allowed to become persona non-grata in New York- largely due to the franchises inability to surround them with appropriate talent. I can't help but feel that forcing Melo out will have an even more detrimental effect on the way stars view the possibility of signing with us as free agents and I wonder what effect will it have on KP, seeing how fickle this business can be. So as much as I'm excited by a probable tank-job, I'm guarded by the potential fallout that might occur. And to be perfectly honest, it feels a bit yucky to push a guy out that has been a model citizen since he's been here AND who has bleed orange-and-blue.

What do you all think?
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TripleThreat
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1/26/2017  6:24 PM
Several years ago, the best FA that Golden State could sign was Corey Maggette. A shot jacker that would make Kobe Bryant and even Melo blush. They signed Kevin Durant this last offseason. Have a good roster that can give you max money and a chance to contend and people will sign.

Kevin Love did not have to sign in Cleveland long term. He did so because he was playing with LBJ and Nike always makes sure LBJ has a shot at the ring. Before LBJ, was any large name FA or player going to sign in Cleveland.

A) Where can I get the most money
B) Can I get a chance to contend
C) Will going there make my wife insane and have her make my life a living hell

That's what FAs think about.

You think some FA who can make a difference will turn down MAX MONEY and a CHANCE TO CONTEND on any NBA roster over some player who was there several years before and gone?

Does anyone think the Heat did Dwayne Wade wrong? He does. But if he wanted longer years and more money, dude should have learned to shoot a three point shot at an elite rate. Or get back on defense without flopping. Or lose the 20-25 pounds to be more mobile and not incur so many injuries.

If you had Drummond, Cousins, Greek Freak, Embiid, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson and Damon Lillard on a team in Siberia, and a player could get max money and a chance to contend, do you think that player is going to care about what happened several years before? Or even the last offseason before?

NBA player like to push this narrative because most are too arrogant to see they have just as little loyalty to their franchises as owners do to their players. Both side are mercenary.
holfresh
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1/26/2017  6:40 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  8:15 PM
I haven't really looked into the situation in depth regarding the proposed trade nor have heard any explanation regarding direction of the team..But it begs the question, what has change since we traded for Rose and signed Noah. On the face of it, Melo and Phil had a few public contentious moments since the beginning of the season..But seems like the players and the coach have rebuffed the triangle as the sole style of play. Melo commented of Phil's "posse" interview, and the responded comments about Melo being a ball stopper..Phil hasn't looked good in the media as a result...Melo is getting props the way he has handled himself in those matters...Maybe Phil is pissed and wants to show everyone who is the boss...I'm really not as vested in this team as past years, because I really don't think this team or any near term Knick team can make any noise for the foreseeable future..So it's probably time for Melo to go anyway..I would just rather get the feeling it's a basketball move more so than an ego play...But that said I know nothing..Phil and Melo is driving this ship...

I agree that this is huge in regards to future signings, especially if Phil is here...Either way, we come away looking dysfunctional with Dolan at the helm...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...
Knixkik
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1/26/2017  7:07 PM
We aren't really forcing melo out. We are allowing him an opportunity to compete where we have failed. In the NBA, 99.9% of players change teams at some point. Everyone in the league can see a knicks and melo separation is probably best for everyone. That won't change any perception of the knicks. Change is constant. The knicks and melo tried to make it work. KP has basically given the knicks the excuse to move in a new direction and everyone knows that's just the business of the NBA.
GustavBahler
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1/26/2017  7:08 PM
"The politics of oooh feelin good...."
CrushAlot
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1/26/2017  7:10 PM
Knixkik wrote:We aren't really forcing melo out. We are allowing him an opportunity to compete where we have failed. In the NBA, 99.9% of players change teams at some point. Everyone in the league can see a knicks and melo separation is probably best for everyone. That won't change any perception of the knicks. Change is constant. The knicks and melo tried to make it work. KP has basically given the knicks the excuse to move in a new direction and everyone knows that's just the business of the NBA.
Melo has become a bit of an ambassador for the nba. Phil's handling of this certainly can't help his cause with other players/agents.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Knixkik
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1/26/2017  7:39 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Knixkik wrote:We aren't really forcing melo out. We are allowing him an opportunity to compete where we have failed. In the NBA, 99.9% of players change teams at some point. Everyone in the league can see a knicks and melo separation is probably best for everyone. That won't change any perception of the knicks. Change is constant. The knicks and melo tried to make it work. KP has basically given the knicks the excuse to move in a new direction and everyone knows that's just the business of the NBA.
Melo has become a bit of an ambassador for the nba. Phil's handling of this certainly can't help his cause with other players/agents.

Maybe not but it's not like wade and miami. Knicks gave melo a ton of opportunity and the organization treated him well. Knicks didn't get cheap or low ball him in any way. They have treated him as the cornerstone of the franchise to the very end, I'm comparison to the wade situation in Miami.
SwishAndDish13
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1/26/2017  7:40 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  7:40 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Knixkik wrote:We aren't really forcing melo out. We are allowing him an opportunity to compete where we have failed. In the NBA, 99.9% of players change teams at some point. Everyone in the league can see a knicks and melo separation is probably best for everyone. That won't change any perception of the knicks. Change is constant. The knicks and melo tried to make it work. KP has basically given the knicks the excuse to move in a new direction and everyone knows that's just the business of the NBA.
Melo has become a bit of an ambassador for the nba. Phil's handling of this certainly can't help his cause with other players/agents.

+1 - the abuse he took and our inability to construct a decent roster at any point won't bode well in the future. People don't wanna deal with this here. Players like the KD setup where they receive zero challenge. This will bury the franchise.
Jmpasq
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1/26/2017  7:53 PM
holfresh wrote:I haven't really looked into the situation in depth regarding the proposed trade nor have heard any explanation regarding direction of the team..But it begs the question, what has change since we traded for Rose and signed Noah. On the face of it, Melo and Phil had a few public contentious moments since the beginning of the season..But seems like the players and the coach has rebuffed the triangle as the sole style of play. Melo commented of Phil's "posse" interview, and the responded comments about Melo being a ball stopper..Phil hasn't looked good in the media as a result...Melo is getting props the way he has handled himself in those matters...Maybe Phil is pissed and wants to show everyone who is the boss...I'm really not as vested in this team as past years, because I really don't think this team or any near term Knick team can make any noise for the foreseeable future..So it's probably time for Melo to go anyway..I would just rather get the feeling it's a basketball move more so than an ego play...But that said I know nothing..Phil and Melo is driving this ship...

I agree that I think is huge in regards to future signings especially if Phil is here...Either way, we come away looking dysfunctional with Dolan at the helm...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves hare hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

He has had no picks

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Knixkik
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1/26/2017  8:42 PM
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Knixkik wrote:We aren't really forcing melo out. We are allowing him an opportunity to compete where we have failed. In the NBA, 99.9% of players change teams at some point. Everyone in the league can see a knicks and melo separation is probably best for everyone. That won't change any perception of the knicks. Change is constant. The knicks and melo tried to make it work. KP has basically given the knicks the excuse to move in a new direction and everyone knows that's just the business of the NBA.
Melo has become a bit of an ambassador for the nba. Phil's handling of this certainly can't help his cause with other players/agents.

+1 - the abuse he took and our inability to construct a decent roster at any point won't bode well in the future. People don't wanna deal with this here. Players like the KD setup where they receive zero challenge. This will bury the franchise.

Any concerns will become a distant memory very quick. Players won't even think twice about the melo era.
stanleybostitch
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1/26/2017  8:59 PM
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

The new new core: Randle, RJ, IQ. Maybe Mitch. Future pick. Future trade. Future FA.
holfresh
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1/26/2017  9:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  10:28 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

So in your estimation those picks will be a core for a playoff team?.. Without breaking down each player positives or negatives..None of these players are good defenders...So unless they turn into offensive machines, where are we really??..But I think KP will be solid and Willy will be a good pro..Game Changers? eh...
crzymdups
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1/26/2017  9:54 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

Kuz is 27, so not exactly a kid. That's about mid-career for most NBA players.

Also, KOQ, Willy, and KP are all varying degrees of being good to great prospects... but one issue is that they're all bigs and it's a guard-driven league. Phil needs to be able to get a very good to great guard prospect in this year's draft. With all his stringent philosophies about the Triangle and what a lead guard should be (a lot of which, frankly, run counter to the modern NBA ideal of what a lead guard should be)... I'm a little worried about that.

But he's done very well to keep the picks. I'm a little bummed he gave up on Hardaway Jr, and then Grant so quickly.

Would our record really be much worse this season if we'd kept Grant and Galloway to run the point? I understood the Rose gamble for what it was... but it hasn't gone too well.

As for Melo, yeah, I agree with the OP - don't think NBA stars haven't noticed that Melo, Amar'e, Marbury, Francis, ZBo, Crawford, etc all had rough goes in NYC. It's not a destination for NBA stars. Not unless we build a good young nucleus... even then, I think there would be a bit of hesitation to come here. It's a tough market and the owner is whacky, Phil is not always around, the coach changes pretty much once a year. Robin Lopez came to NYC partially to live in the same town as his brother - he was traded less than a year after he signed a four year deal. People are already talking about trading Noah and CLee and Rose. DRose went AWOL and his mom had to talk him out of retiring on the spot. Afflalo left town a villain after playing better than he normally does. Players talk and players pay attention - this isn't a great place to come and continue your career in the NBA. I think Phil has found out the hard way that our money is hard to give away in FA.

¿ △ ?
meloshouldgo
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1/26/2017  10:00 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

Exactly right. Can't help the people trying to scapegoat Phil to cover for Melos ineptitude. LIke Knixkik mentioned on another thread, this is the best position we have been in over the last 15 years.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
CrushAlot
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1/26/2017  10:22 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

I took a second look at this and everything Phil has done that you credit as a positive can be credited to Gaines. His trades have not been good. Forcing Rambis on the coaches he hires and with Fisher his other cronies has not worked out well at all. His traditional free agent signings have not been good except for Rolo. His contract to Melo with the trade kicker and ntc was horrible if he had any intention of trading him down the road. Is it possible that the only person he respects enough in the organization to listen to is Clarence Gaines? Nothing else he has done has been close to successful.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
stanleybostitch
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1/26/2017  10:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  10:42 PM
holfresh wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

So in your estimation those picks will be a core for a playoff team?.. Without breaking down each player positives or negatives..None of these players are good defenders...So unless they turn into offensive machines, where are we really??..But I think KP will be solid and Willy will be a good pro..Game Changers? eh...

These four guys - yes. KP and Willy can be elite defensively and offensively. Mindy is a gunner and can be a 3-and-D guy. KOQ is talent and can be a great chip if needed. The upcoming picks - yes, if Phil continues to draft well, which he has, then yes they will likely be part of the core of a sustained playoff team. Not a one-and-done team.

The new new core: Randle, RJ, IQ. Maybe Mitch. Future pick. Future trade. Future FA.
arkrud
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1/26/2017  10:45 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  10:48 PM
Everyone here forgets that MSG is a corporation.
The only important thing for them is profit and cash flow.
Melo was a huge money generation machine but it became deprecated.
The new machine in KP is under construction.
So they try to get some mercenaries in-between to get some drama and attract tourist and celebs to show up and buy merchandise.
This strategy is so obviously backfired that owner went to sing the Blues and the notion that time to invest some of the doh collected is came.
Same as with Rangers in 2004 it is time to blow it up and make money on great long term expectations.
Worked very well on the ice. Why not on the hardwood?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
holfresh
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1/26/2017  10:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  10:52 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

So in your estimation those picks will be a core for a playoff team?.. Without breaking down each player positives or negatives..None of these players are good defenders...So unless they turn into offensive machines, where are we really??..But I think KP will be solid and Willy will be a good pro..Game Changers? eh...

The upcoming picks - yes, if Phil continues to draft well, which he has, then yes they will likely be part of the core of a sustained playoff team. Not a one-and-done team.

That can be said about anyone..As long as you draft well you can have a sustained playoff team..Three years into Phil Jackson's tenure, we have a lottery team. If the proposed trade with the Clippers is made, two years from now we will have a lottery team...So the high praise of Phil Jackson's efforts escapes me...He has made horrible trades where we never get equal value back in anything...

http://projects.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/phil-jackson/
Look at what he has done since he has been here...

You are looking at the GS model and thinking that can be you..Sacramento is just down the road from ...
crzymdups
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1/26/2017  10:54 PM
holfresh wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

So in your estimation those picks will be a core for a playoff team?.. Without breaking down each player positives or negatives..None of these players are good defenders...So unless they turn into offensive machines, where are we really??..But I think KP will be solid and Willy will be a good pro..Game Changers? eh...

The upcoming picks - yes, if Phil continues to draft well, which he has, then yes they will likely be part of the core of a sustained playoff team. Not a one-and-done team.

That can be said about anyone..As long as you draft well you can have a sustained playoff team..Three years into Phil Jackson's tenure, we have a lottery team. If the proposed trade with the Clippers is made, two years from now we will have a lottery team...So the high praise of Phil Jackson's efforts escapes me...He has made horrible trades where we never get equal value back in anything...

http://projects.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/phil-jackson/
Look at what he has done since he has been here...

You are looking at the GS model and thinking that can be you..Sacramento is just down the road from ...

To be fair - it wasn't Phil's fault they didn't have first round picks in 2014 and 2016. Previous administrations F***ed him.

¿ △ ?
holfresh
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1/26/2017  10:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2017  11:00 PM
crzymdups wrote:
holfresh wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
holfresh wrote:...Phil has revamped the team three consecutive years..That's not building anything..All his moves are hedged it seems... I'm surprised the media has been so quiet about his moves thus far..But I just started to hear rumblings today on talk radio...But we will see...I really didn't expect much anyway, in that manner at least, Phil has delivered...

Phil got us KP.
Phil got us Willy.
Phil got us Mindy.
Phil got us KOQ.
Phil got us all our picks.

That's four quality young players on great deals who will form our future nucleus (with KOQ a great chip to get a wing if needed). That's picks. We have started to build the GS way. If folks want to play into the Melo saga and blame Phil go ahead but it's all BS and not rooted in what is really transpiring here, which is the move away from ISO non-team ball and towards fun, fast, and efficient team ball.

So in your estimation those picks will be a core for a playoff team?.. Without breaking down each player positives or negatives..None of these players are good defenders...So unless they turn into offensive machines, where are we really??..But I think KP will be solid and Willy will be a good pro..Game Changers? eh...

The upcoming picks - yes, if Phil continues to draft well, which he has, then yes they will likely be part of the core of a sustained playoff team. Not a one-and-done team.

That can be said about anyone..As long as you draft well you can have a sustained playoff team..Three years into Phil Jackson's tenure, we have a lottery team. If the proposed trade with the Clippers is made, two years from now we will have a lottery team...So the high praise of Phil Jackson's efforts escapes me...He has made horrible trades where we never get equal value back in anything...

http://projects.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/phil-jackson/
Look at what he has done since he has been here...

You are looking at the GS model and thinking that can be you..Sacramento is just down the road from ...

To be fair - it wasn't Phil's fault they didn't have first round picks in 2014 and 2016. Previous administrations F***ed him.

Let's be honest here as well, Phil went into each season thinking he had assembled a playoff team...Phil was never trying to rebuild thru the draft...He hedged and left himself an escape valve which has cost us in trades and will likely cost us again....

So you can credit him for building through the draft, it was never his intention...
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