Let's break it down.

New York is naturally cursed by the commercial demand to play the highest paid players rather than the players who are most effective. We've watched this act for thirty years or more. In fact, I attribute the appreciation and affection that Knicks fans have for the 11-15 players on the team as a yearning for that passion from players 1-10.

Hornacek [Rambis, and the rest of the coaching staff] are prisoners of the golden handcuffs that keep high-priced players on the floor ths limiting their options. Rambis can teach defense 24 x 7 and players who are deaf to it won't execute. Horny can run Triangles, pick and rolls, whatever turns you on, and at the end of the day brain-dead players will do in the coach and the system.

This particular set of high-priced players first lack chemistry. Spike Lee is more inspiring than any one of them [let's give Kristaps a bye given his sophomore status]. And that lack of chemistry manifests itself as lethargic play.

Let's take Noah for example. Yeah he's not as spry as he used to be but he's got some passion for winning but no passion for self-improvement. He's battling on the offensive boards and always in the thick of it. There's a putback - a bunny - to be had yet time after time after time he can't make the play. That's not age, lack of passion, that's all about not getting in the gym and fixing that shot.

And Melo? Makes millions on volume shooting. No hustle, no passion, no urgency.

Rose - playing for a contract. No commitment to the rest of the team.

Lee phones it in.

Not a lick of defense from a one of them aside from Noah. Every game they look like a bunch of strangers in a pickup game.

Ten, fifteen, twenty point leads are so predictably followed by bad judgement, selfish play, of just giddy indifference that the end of games make every fan look like Nostradamus.

The season is not lost - *yet* but this has got to change. I'm not talking about any grandious "blow it all up and start again" rhetoric or wishful NBA draft fantasies. The only way to make change and get high-priced players off the court in NY is to trade them.

At least two of the rotation players need to move.

I am for tank. The players I like are KP, Willie, Kuz and Baker because they are the Knicks from the very beginning. The others could careless for them. Their pride is elsewhere.

Vmart wrote:We now know free agency doesn't work. Trades don't work either what is left to do but the draft which has yielded a franchise type player. If the draft was the success why not go at it again. We sure as hell haven't got FA that has turned this franchise around and we haven't gotten anything in the trade market but side ways deals that take away the only advantage which is the teams draft picks.

I am for tank. The players I like are KP, Willie, Kuz and Baker because they are the Knicks from the very beginning. The others could careless for them. Their pride is elsewhere.

The draft was successful but three teams ahead of us weren't nor were many picking after us. Tanking is a fool's errand. take your chances with the pick you get.

crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.

No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.

The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).

That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?

This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...

Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.

At least we have KP.

If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.

I actually think this team still has a chance to get it's act together and finish the year strong. #1 get KP FULLY healthy. #2 keep moving away from the Triangle cuz these guys are better playing PnR basketball. #3 Keep working on the Defense and developing the younger players.

There is still a lot of untapped talent on this team. Still more development needed by some of the younger guys. Jeff has to ignore Phil and Rambis and just do his own thing. I believe he did that last game. They went with a 4 Out PnR heavy offense EARLY and kept doing it. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that these players are better playing a Modern Spread Offense.

The only way to make change and get high-priced players off the court in NY is to trade them.
At least two of the rotation players need to move.

fwk00 wrote:There are a number of stupid loops that just won't go away. The Melo haters, the Phil haters, the Rambis haters, the Triangle haters, the Rose/Noah haters, the Horny haters, the Asshola experience, and so on. Perpetual circlular blame.

Let's break it down.

New York is naturally cursed by the commercial demand to play the highest paid players rather than the players who are most effective. We've watched this act for thirty years or more. In fact, I attribute the appreciation and affection that Knicks fans have for the 11-15 players on the team as a yearning for that passion from players 1-10.

Hornacek [Rambis, and the rest of the coaching staff] are prisoners of the golden handcuffs that keep high-priced players on the floor ths limiting their options. Rambis can teach defense 24 x 7 and players who are deaf to it won't execute. Horny can run Triangles, pick and rolls, whatever turns you on, and at the end of the day brain-dead players will do in the coach and the system.

This particular set of high-priced players first lack chemistry. Spike Lee is more inspiring than any one of them [let's give Kristaps a bye given his sophomore status]. And that lack of chemistry manifests itself as lethargic play.

Let's take Noah for example. Yeah he's not as spry as he used to be but he's got some passion for winning but no passion for self-improvement. He's battling on the offensive boards and always in the thick of it. There's a putback - a bunny - to be had yet time after time after time he can't make the play. That's not age, lack of passion, that's all about not getting in the gym and fixing that shot.

And Melo? Makes millions on volume shooting. No hustle, no passion, no urgency.

Rose - playing for a contract. No commitment to the rest of the team.

Lee phones it in.

Not a lick of defense from a one of them aside from Noah. Every game they look like a bunch of strangers in a pickup game.

Ten, fifteen, twenty point leads are so predictably followed by bad judgement, selfish play, of just giddy indifference that the end of games make every fan look like Nostradamus.

The season is not lost - *yet* but this has got to change. I'm not talking about any grandious "blow it all up and start again" rhetoric or wishful NBA draft fantasies. The only way to make change and get high-priced players off the court in NY is to trade them.

At least two of the rotation players need to move.

Very well said. And accurate.

knicks1248 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.

No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.

The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).

That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?

This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...

Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.

At least we have KP.

If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.

Dude you name like 4 teams out 30, do the math on that percentage. We had Ewing and no high draft picks for 15 years and made the playoffs all of them. Even in the walt frazier days, they made trades to build championship teams. They didnt build through no lottery.

You want to talk Lottery, look at what KD just did, look at what shaq did, labron, payton, the list is endless. Your precious draft picks will leave your ass high and dry if your not winning, and improving every year..It's the nature of sports. Ewing gave 15 yrs to this franchise and there wasn't a GM that could bring in the peices.

You think KP is going to sit around ny after watching the nba finals on tv yr after yr while we keep sucking and not having enough. It's never been all about draft picks, Its all about making the right moves.

High price stars win championships, Curry would have been 20+ mill now if it wasnt for his ankle issues prior to his rookie contrat ending.

Phil is all about puttin the circle in the square box and and lets see if we can make a triangle, he's not even on the same page as the coaching staff he hires.. It's harder to get on the same page when one person is in the begining of the book, and the other is in the middle.

This is the best starting 5 the knicks have had in 20 yrs, a balance starting 5, and I mean that as far as talent. The problem is, there's no sacrificing in that line up.

Aside from melo and Rose, the starting line up should have been shooking up so you can maximize your talent. Like letting kp come off the bench to play with jennings (a more willing passer) and willy (his former teammate)

Unless the bottom falls out through an unfortunate series of evets there's no sane logic in tanking - none. We have our pick no matter what number it falls on. That's enough to be in the draft game.

And I agree comepletely that its all about putting talent and chemistry on the court. This year the Knicks are loaded with talent and need to tweak the chemistry. IMO, the triangle criticism is out-of-control. The Porzingis posse has no problem with it, the knuckleheads will fail in any system.

blkexec wrote:Phills knick championship team was a mix of FAs and draft picks. So it doesn't matter where the talent comes from.....its all about the recipe of ingredients. It's like phill already has a recipe, but he's missing some of his main ingredients.

Agreed. We're closing in on the right mix but not quite there yet.

fwk00 wrote:As far as trading these guys, here are a handful of probable or improbable trades I'd pursue;

Two chemistry minded trades:

Lee, Jennings and Thomas for Knight and Dudley

Lee and Jennings for Rubio and Shabazz M.

Some clearing space/improving bench trades:

Lee, Jennings and Plumlee for Bogut and Dallas' second-rounder (#34 at the moment)

Jennings and N'Dour for Devin Harris and the Dallas second-rounder

Jennings for Derrick Williams

Thomas and N'Dourfor Connaughton and Aminu

I'm also a big fan of Terry Rozier and Jamal Murray, neither of whom can I figure out a way to get over here.

Hail Mary;

Lee and Jennings the Houston second-rounder (#57-ish) to reunite Dragic with Horny

Okay, I like either of those first two trades, but particularly the Phoenix one.

crzymdups wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.

No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.

The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).

That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?

This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...

Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.

At least we have KP.

If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.

Dude you name like 4 teams out 30, do the math on that percentage. We had Ewing and no high draft picks for 15 years and made the playoffs all of them. Even in the walt frazier days, they made trades to build championship teams. They didnt build through no lottery.

You want to talk Lottery, look at what KD just did, look at what shaq did, labron, payton, the list is endless. Your precious draft picks will leave your ass high and dry if your not winning, and improving every year..It's the nature of sports. Ewing gave 15 yrs to this franchise and there wasn't a GM that could bring in the peices.

You think KP is going to sit around ny after watching the nba finals on tv yr after yr while we keep sucking and not having enough. It's never been all about draft picks, Its all about making the right moves.

High price stars win championships, Curry would have been 20+ mill now if it wasnt for his ankle issues prior to his rookie contrat ending.

Phil is all about puttin the circle in the square box and and lets see if we can make a triangle, he's not even on the same page as the coaching staff he hires.. It's harder to get on the same page when one person is in the begining of the book, and the other is in the middle.

This is the best starting 5 the knicks have had in 20 yrs, a balance starting 5, and I mean that as far as talent. The problem is, there's no sacrificing in that line up.

Aside from melo and Rose, the starting line up should have been shooking up so you can maximize your talent. Like letting kp come off the bench to play with jennings (a more willing passer) and willy (his former teammate)

Unless the bottom falls out through an unfortunate series of evets there's no sane logic in tanking - none. We have our pick no matter what number it falls on. That's enough to be in the draft game.

And I agree comepletely that its all about putting talent and chemistry on the court. This year the Knicks are loaded with talent and need to tweak the chemistry. IMO, the triangle criticism is out-of-control. The Porzingis posse has no problem with it, the knuckleheads will fail in any system.

I didn't say tank. I said don't trade first round picks to try to right this ship and stop trying to take shortcuts. Where did I say tank? I said rebuild the team using our draft picks - don't trade them away for the likes of Bargnani or Steve Francis or Eddy Curry or Stephon Marbury, etc.

Indiana is a team that predominantly keeps its picks and they always have a very competitive team. They just got Myles Turner at 13 and that looks like a steal. One of the few times they've traded their first rounder in the past ten years? They got George Hill... for a pick that became Kawhi Leonard.

All I'm saying is keep the damn picks. I'm not opposed to signing free agents or trades of existing contracts. But I want a young group of players we slowly build.

Knicks1248 says I only named 4 teams out of 30. Check out the Utah Jazz, Portland, Indiana, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Lakers, Washington, Celtics, Orlando, Sixers, Raptors, Hawks, Grizzlies.

Those teams all build around their draft picks. You can augment with signings and the like, but those teams KEEP their picks. And make good ones. Not all those teams are having great seasons, but they mostly have deep rosters and abilities to make moves. And some of those teams are very good.