EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

Completely disagree that he is best guard. He is consistently running under screens causing the defense to collapse. I'll concede he is playing his heart out but "best" guard? That's just some vodka infused Kool Aid.

I would expect you to cite to last night's +/- to support your point such that if your to say Sasha had the best game on a +/- basis, it would be hard to argue. Last night's performance merely kept him on the roster. Best guard is just troll bait so you can throw this one game out there. The fact that he is fighting for his life against an undrafted rookie speaks for itself.

Finestrg wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

Completely disagree that he is best guard. He is consistently running under screens causing the defense to collapse. I'll concede he is playing his heart out but "best" guard? That's just some vodka infused Kool Aid.

I would expect you to cite to last night's +/- to support your point such that if your to say Sasha had the best game on a +/- basis, it would be hard to argue. Last night's performance merely kept him on the roster. Best guard is just troll bait so you can throw this one game out there. The fact that he is fighting for his life against an I drafted rookie speaks for itself.

Yeah, I don't agree either. He had a decent game last night but it doesn't change my opinion on him. He's a bit player that's never been truly effective at any point in his career. We're talking about a career shooter under 40% here...Had a pretty good finish down the stretch last season in what eventually became a completely lost year, meaning no real pressure to perform--we weren't playing meaningful games (and I've heard a lot about Sasha's great finish last year but let's not forget he shot 38% from the field last year--just to keep his whole season in perspective)...And even last night, yeah he looked pretty good but I believe he hit his last FG with around 6 mins. to go (a 3). The game was close at that point--Celts lead was cut to 1, 2, maybe 4. He had something to do with that run so he deserves some credit. But then what did he do? Didn't do much of anything that last 6 mins. to stand out or keep his team close, right? Boston's lead quickly ballooned back up to double digits and this was all against Celtic 2nd and 3rd stringers. I don't think he hit another shot the rest of the way and didn't do much on defense either. I mean if we wanna pick Justin Holiday's game apart--we can do the same thing here too with Sasha. We're in a position now with Randle down, Sasha could very well see important court time when either Rose or Jennings miss some time. Just don't understand how any Knick fan can feel comfortable with a largely ineffective career bit 2G playing out of position at backup point in hopefully meaningful games throughout the year. That proposition scares the piss outta me. Just don't consider that a favorable option at all. I think it's clear that if Randle can't make it back soon with a mask or whatever (and who even really knows if he's a good 3rd PG option either), we need to import another guard capable of ball-handling and facilitating (someone more capable and more effective than Vujacic). With Lee's ineffectiveness at 2G so far as well, maybe we look for a bigger guard that can play both positions--someone like a Spencer Dinwiddie or Elliot Williams if either of those guys wind up getting cut.

EnySpree wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

Completely disagree that he is best guard. He is consistently running under screens causing the defense to collapse. I'll concede he is playing his heart out but "best" guard? That's just some vodka infused Kool Aid.

I would expect you to cite to last night's +/- to support your point such that if your to say Sasha had the best game on a +/- basis, it would be hard to argue. Last night's performance merely kept him on the roster. Best guard is just troll bait so you can throw this one game out there. The fact that he is fighting for his life against an undrafted rookie speaks for itself.

I don't do troll bate. Rose isn't here, Randle has been hurt, Holiday sucks, Baker had been nice and Brandon has been good. Sasha has outplayed them all. Stats, eye test.... whatever. I don't have an agenda here. Basketball is basketball. Sasha is playing really good basketball. I don't see him hanging on by a thread bit in the least.

Randle was hurt 1 game. Sasha had one good game. Rose had one good game. Jennings has been really good, although his shooting is suspect. We are literally arguing over Baker and Vujacic right. Who can add more versus who has more upside. Not sure why people are so infatuated with Sasha.

The only good news is that Coach is gonna have to make some tough decisions. I am glad the players made it tough.

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

I guess you expect that to continue? it was one game and it's preseason. And it's a game they were getting bodied from three.

It hasn't been just one game and Sasha want the one getting routinely lost on defense. He's been playing point and guarding point. Sasha played like this last year. He problem was his jumpshot wasn't falling. He's been scoring nicely this preseason. That's all I can see. You have to play the guys that's bringing it. Not the ones that might be because of their reputation.

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

I guess you expect that to continue? it was one game and it's preseason. And it's a game they were getting bodied from three.

It hasn't been just one game and Sasha want the one getting routinely lost on defense. He's been playing point and guarding point. Sasha played like this last year. He problem was his jumpshot wasn't falling. He's been scoring nicely this preseason. That's all I can see. You have to play the guys that's bringing it. Not the ones that might be because of their reputation.

Sasha does two things well, he plays hard and he pushes the tempo. We have Rose and Jennings for that in front of him. And yes, it was just one game. Usually he's been on the negative side of every +/- in the preseason except this past one game. Not sure of the reputation you speak of

No.. he also shoots well. He does a lot of things, starting with quality veteran play. Something some folks cant grasp. He also EARNED his spot THIS year, with his excellent play to finish LAST year. I understand last season was tough, but Sasha had an excellent finish. 23 games post all star last year he shot .455 from 3 point range, had a .600 true shooting, was +3.3 in the +/-
The guy has earned his spot with his play on the court, and that doesn't even include the fact that he's a triangle guy, a positive locker room presence and a coach on the floor.

Every year the same guys go nuts over some fringe prospect making the roster. Sasha is also 6'7 so he's got size over Baker and Randle as well.

All statistics point to Sasha being below average. Lifetime PER of 11.1 puts him in the lower echelon of players. Some say he played "well" the last 18 games of the season. I would say he "played" the last 18 games of the season. The team went 6-12. So if you are going to credit a player with history for being a veteran, you must accept the shortcomings too. I'm not hot and heavy over any prospect. I see Baker and I say he plays basketball the correct way. Compare Baker fighting over screens to Sasha running under them. That alone was all I needed to see. I see the two as competing for the same spot. I think Sasha is incumbent and has a better chance of keeping that spot, but if you see how they play, Baker has the fundamentals to be a solid 3&D. Sasha is what he is.

I'll admit Sasha is likely to make the team. I just disagree that he should.

You can make the same arguments for Amundson over Plumlee.

And no... did Amundson play well last year? Did he have an impact? Has Amundson played under current management and won a title? Is Amundson bigger than Plumlee? So no... not really the same argument. Sasha is a 6'7 guard who can play both spots. Right now, today Sasha is a better NBA player than Ron Baker. Your big argument for Baker seems to revolve around upside... are you aware that Baker has essentially been the same player since his sophomore year? Where is the upside in a guy who didn't get better in college? But your expectation is he's got upside in the NBA? Ron Baker's 3 point shooting went DOWN EVERY YEAR in college. He's smaller than Sasha as well. Name one attribute that he brings over Sasha right now.

Yea.. Sasha is what he is... and that better than Ron Baker.

fishmike wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:He should on the team, we need someone who is a vet with ring experience, especially to mold the younger guys. I don't want him in the regular rotation though, except for injury reasons. He does play hard, but he isn't effective.

Hes been our best player in the a backcourt in the preseason

I guess you expect that to continue? it was one game and it's preseason. And it's a game they were getting bodied from three.

It hasn't been just one game and Sasha want the one getting routinely lost on defense. He's been playing point and guarding point. Sasha played like this last year. He problem was his jumpshot wasn't falling. He's been scoring nicely this preseason. That's all I can see. You have to play the guys that's bringing it. Not the ones that might be because of their reputation.

Sasha does two things well, he plays hard and he pushes the tempo. We have Rose and Jennings for that in front of him. And yes, it was just one game. Usually he's been on the negative side of every +/- in the preseason except this past one game. Not sure of the reputation you speak of

No.. he also shoots well. He does a lot of things, starting with quality veteran play. Something some folks cant grasp. He also EARNED his spot THIS year, with his excellent play to finish LAST year. I understand last season was tough, but Sasha had an excellent finish. 23 games post all star last year he shot .455 from 3 point range, had a .600 true shooting, was +3.3 in the +/-
The guy has earned his spot with his play on the court, and that doesn't even include the fact that he's a triangle guy, a positive locker room presence and a coach on the floor.

Every year the same guys go nuts over some fringe prospect making the roster. Sasha is also 6'7 so he's got size over Baker and Randle as well.

All statistics point to Sasha being below average. Lifetime PER of 11.1 puts him in the lower echelon of players. Some say he played "well" the last 18 games of the season. I would say he "played" the last 18 games of the season. The team went 6-12. So if you are going to credit a player with history for being a veteran, you must accept the shortcomings too. I'm not hot and heavy over any prospect. I see Baker and I say he plays basketball the correct way. Compare Baker fighting over screens to Sasha running under them. That alone was all I needed to see. I see the two as competing for the same spot. I think Sasha is incumbent and has a better chance of keeping that spot, but if you see how they play, Baker has the fundamentals to be a solid 3&D. Sasha is what he is.

I'll admit Sasha is likely to make the team. I just disagree that he should.

You can make the same arguments for Amundson over Plumlee.

And Baker went undrafted so not a single team in the NBA thought he was worth spending a pick on. So there's that also. Is that a shortcoming?

And no... did Amundson play well last year? Did he have an impact? Has Amundson played under current management and won a title? Is Amundson bigger than Plumlee? So no... not really the same argument. Sasha is a 6'7 guard who can play both spots. Right now, today Sasha is a better NBA player than Ron Baker. Your big argument for Baker seems to revolve around upside... are you aware that Baker has essentially been the same player since his sophomore year? Where is the upside in a guy who didn't get better in college? But your expectation is he's got upside in the NBA? Ron Baker's 3 point shooting went DOWN EVERY YEAR in college. He's smaller than Sasha as well. Name one attribute that he brings over Sasha right now.

Yea.. Sasha is what he is... and that better than Ron Baker.

Being undrafted is a statement of the league's present knowledge of a player's skill by the collective NBA. It is an indication that teams do not value him enough to use draft rights. I would suggest it is a good indication that such player will not make it in the NBA. There are exceptions. But on average, I would suggest the likelihood of an undrafted player making an NBA roster is quite low. Let alone 2 in one year for one team. Or three. Or 4. Randle, Kuz, Plumlord and Baker all went undrafted.

It seems to me that Phil Jackson is attempting to work within his own valuations of talent (including Sasha, to my dismay). He had specific commentary that he thought the league (as a whole) overvalued three point shooting in this offseason. He specifically targeted two point guards that were not very proficient 3 point shooters and were, historically, good at getting into the paint and drawing fouls.

Another place where teams are overvaluing players is the ability for a player to mature and develop NBA game. I specifically tend to disagree here (and have argued against 4th year players in the past), because I specifically argue that 'they are what they are' after four years. Maybe more NBA ready, but less upside than a Sophomore player. That also speaks against guys like Baker and more for a "seasoned" veteran.

But this is pretty much my entire point. Given all the feelings I have against 4th year college players that went undrafted, I still think Baker is a better fit for this roster than Sasha. And that is for this one attribute -- I think Baker plays better, harder defense. I think he is going to keep other players more honest in practice with his work ethic. I think he can shoot well. His 3pt stroke looks good. And committing to basketball full time, I think he will show marginal improvement, mostly on the defensive side of the ball.

That's pretty much my entire point. We are arguing over who is more qualified. A below average vet or an undrafted rookie. You want to bring Baker's college career in as a negative? His college PER is 22.1. My point is that they shoot similar percentage from 3 and Baker plays better D. So, being the 4th guard, I take my chances on the Rookie because I always thought Sasha's role on this team was to mentor KP and I think I have other guys for that now.

Sasha's Euro Career:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/sasha-vujacic-1.html

Sasha's NBA Career:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/vujacsa01.html

Baker's College Career
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ron-baker-1.html

All your arguments gainst Baker work against Sasha also.