Knicks' Derrick Rose getting used to 'foreign' triangle offense

WEST POINT, N.Y. -- Here’s how Derrick Rose described the triangle offense after running it for two practices with the New York Knicks:

“It’s complicated a little bit right now because it’s new to us. It’s foreign. But I think the more we work on it and the way the coaches are putting it into the offense, it’s [going to get] little bit easier,” Rose said after Thursday’s practice.

“[There’s] like 40 to 50 options on one side of the floor. It’s like giving you your space for creativity. It’s like if you’re doing it the right way, you could do everything you want, you could freelance but you just got to know where you’re going.”

It’s understandable that Rose wouldn’t be fully comfortable with the triangle offense after running it for two days. But his ability to pick up the offense -- which coach Jeff Hornacek plans to use in half-court sets -- is crucial to this Knicks season. If Rose can thrive in the triangle, it would go a long way toward helping New York make the playoffs for the first time in four seasons. If not, it may be another long year in New York.

Rose, though, seems optimistic about the offense after running it for a few practices. The point guard said he and his agent, B.J. Armstrong, who played for Phil Jackson’s Bulls teams in the 1990s, have talked about the offense.

“He told me they had the personnel for it back when they played, and I feel like we have the same personnel,” Rose said.

Rose's comfort level in the triangle is something worth monitoring; Knicks coaches have said it can take months for players to truly master the offense.

MORE PICK-AND-ROLL? It’s worth noting that the offense may look markedly different this season under Jeff Hornacek than it has the past two years. Both Hornacek and the players say they hope to attack in transition more this season. The Knicks ranked last in the NBA in points scored in transition per game last season. Rose also confirmed that the club has been using pick-and-roll in the offense under Hornacek.

“We’ve been running a lot of pick-and-roll,” he said. “I feel that’s my game, pick-and-roll. Having two people on me, it creates and opens up space for everyone. We’re just trying to make things simple and make the easy offense.”

On Thursday, Rose also said the club may run pick-and-roll plays in the closing minutes of tight games. Coaches have said Jackson’s clubs, which relied on the triangle, also allowed star players to freelance outside of the system late in close games.

“I think at the end of the game or a game-winning shot or something like that, I don’t think it’s going to be the triangle,” Rose said. “I think it’s probably going to be 1-3 pick-and-roll or 3-1 pick-and-roll. Either me or [Carmelo Anthony] will have to create for someone to take the shot.”

Last season, Derek Fisher wanted to pick up the pace and use more pick-and-rolls early in the shot clock. But he and team president Phil Jackson were at odds over certain aspects of Fisher’s offense, sources say. It's worth noting that Jackson said Hornacek has the freedom to tweak the triangle -- and run transition and early-clock offense.

Rose a big Phil fan: Rose grew up in Chicago in the 1990s. So, naturally, he holds his new team president in high regard.

“He’s a legend,” Rose said of Jackson. “He’s like a legend in Chicago. It’s an honor just being around him. He’s someone that his résumé speaks for itself, all the accolades he achieved and everything. For me to even be in his presence and be a part of what he’s building, I feel like something good is coming my way just by attaching my name with him or being associated with him.”

Rose, though, saw a different side of Jackson on Thursday, when the team president didn’t like something he saw from the Knicks' offense.

“He got mad at us one time because we was running the offense and we didn’t throw the ball into the post,” Rose said. “He came over, kind of grumpy a little bit. That was my first time ever seeing him like that.”

Rose also said Jackson has addressed the team a few times, but the team president hasn't yet talked to Rose about the triangle offense.

“I don’t want to bug him about it. I don’t want to rush to have that conversation. I feel like it’s going to happen whenever it does,” Rose said.

Rose recalled an anecdote about growing up in Chicago when the Bulls were winning titles. Rose was 10 when Chicago won its last title under Jackson.

“I never went to the games. I couldn’t afford to go to the games," Rose said. "I watched them from afar. Even then, I didn’t really watch Bulls games like that. I was always outside playing and I came inside to see everybody huddled around the TV, and I’m like 'A Bulls game is on.' I really didn’t pay too much attention to it because I really couldn’t celebrate like they won a championship. I’m the youngest in my family. I couldn’t go out and celebrate, like run outside, because my mom thought it was too dangerous outside when they were winning championships. Because you know how it is when people win. I had to sit at the window and watch everybody celebrate.”

Rose attended his first Bulls game in 2006, when new teammate Carmelo Anthony and the Denver Nuggets came to Chicago. Rose was a senior in high school.

Nix: You've repeatedly said that there won't be a big Triangle learning curve
for Rose and Noah because they ran some of it in Chicago.

I've disagreed with you.

Rose apparently disagrees with you . . . too.

Malcolm wrote:http://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-knicks/post/_/id/65298/knicks-derrick-rose-getting-used-to-foreign-triangle-offense

Knicks' Derrick Rose getting used to 'foreign' triangle offense

WEST POINT, N.Y. -- Here’s how Derrick Rose described the triangle offense after running it for two practices with the New York Knicks:

“It’s complicated a little bit right now because it’s new to us. It’s foreign. But I think the more we work on it and the way the coaches are putting it into the offense, it’s [going to get] little bit easier,” Rose said after Thursday’s practice.

“[There’s] like 40 to 50 options on one side of the floor. It’s like giving you your space for creativity. It’s like if you’re doing it the right way, you could do everything you want, you could freelance but you just got to know where you’re going.”

It’s understandable that Rose wouldn’t be fully comfortable with the triangle offense after running it for two days. But his ability to pick up the offense -- which coach Jeff Hornacek plans to use in half-court sets -- is crucial to this Knicks season. If Rose can thrive in the triangle, it would go a long way toward helping New York make the playoffs for the first time in four seasons. If not, it may be another long year in New York.

Rose, though, seems optimistic about the offense after running it for a few practices. The point guard said he and his agent, B.J. Armstrong, who played for Phil Jackson’s Bulls teams in the 1990s, have talked about the offense.

“He told me they had the personnel for it back when they played, and I feel like we have the same personnel,” Rose said.

Rose's comfort level in the triangle is something worth monitoring; Knicks coaches have said it can take months for players to truly master the offense.

MORE PICK-AND-ROLL? It’s worth noting that the offense may look markedly different this season under Jeff Hornacek than it has the past two years. Both Hornacek and the players say they hope to attack in transition more this season. The Knicks ranked last in the NBA in points scored in transition per game last season. Rose also confirmed that the club has been using pick-and-roll in the offense under Hornacek.

“We’ve been running a lot of pick-and-roll,” he said. “I feel that’s my game, pick-and-roll. Having two people on me, it creates and opens up space for everyone. We’re just trying to make things simple and make the easy offense.”

On Thursday, Rose also said the club may run pick-and-roll plays in the closing minutes of tight games. Coaches have said Jackson’s clubs, which relied on the triangle, also allowed star players to freelance outside of the system late in close games.

“I think at the end of the game or a game-winning shot or something like that, I don’t think it’s going to be the triangle,” Rose said. “I think it’s probably going to be 1-3 pick-and-roll or 3-1 pick-and-roll. Either me or [Carmelo Anthony] will have to create for someone to take the shot.”

Last season, Derek Fisher wanted to pick up the pace and use more pick-and-rolls early in the shot clock. But he and team president Phil Jackson were at odds over certain aspects of Fisher’s offense, sources say. It's worth noting that Jackson said Hornacek has the freedom to tweak the triangle -- and run transition and early-clock offense.

Rose a big Phil fan: Rose grew up in Chicago in the 1990s. So, naturally, he holds his new team president in high regard.

“He’s a legend,” Rose said of Jackson. “He’s like a legend in Chicago. It’s an honor just being around him. He’s someone that his résumé speaks for itself, all the accolades he achieved and everything. For me to even be in his presence and be a part of what he’s building, I feel like something good is coming my way just by attaching my name with him or being associated with him.”

Rose, though, saw a different side of Jackson on Thursday, when the team president didn’t like something he saw from the Knicks' offense.

“He got mad at us one time because we was running the offense and we didn’t throw the ball into the post,” Rose said. “He came over, kind of grumpy a little bit. That was my first time ever seeing him like that.”

Rose also said Jackson has addressed the team a few times, but the team president hasn't yet talked to Rose about the triangle offense.

“I don’t want to bug him about it. I don’t want to rush to have that conversation. I feel like it’s going to happen whenever it does,” Rose said.

Rose recalled an anecdote about growing up in Chicago when the Bulls were winning titles. Rose was 10 when Chicago won its last title under Jackson.

“I never went to the games. I couldn’t afford to go to the games," Rose said. "I watched them from afar. Even then, I didn’t really watch Bulls games like that. I was always outside playing and I came inside to see everybody huddled around the TV, and I’m like 'A Bulls game is on.' I really didn’t pay too much attention to it because I really couldn’t celebrate like they won a championship. I’m the youngest in my family. I couldn’t go out and celebrate, like run outside, because my mom thought it was too dangerous outside when they were winning championships. Because you know how it is when people win. I had to sit at the window and watch everybody celebrate.”

Rose attended his first Bulls game in 2006, when new teammate Carmelo Anthony and the Denver Nuggets came to Chicago. Rose was a senior in high school.

Nix: You've repeatedly said that there won't be a big Triangle learning curve
for Rose and Noah because they ran some of it in Chicago.

I've disagreed with you.

Rose apparently disagrees with you . . . too.

Besides after an afternoon of instruction you think it would all just come easy? I think you're just in a hurry to find something to BYTCH about as are some in the media who are HOPING and PRAYING for Rose to be a problem for the team and for things to fall apart. Rose is gonna have all Training Camp and Preseason to get a bit more familiar and then into the season.

Another mistake you're making is that you assume that they will be in Triangle all the time when in truth they may end up in Triangle only a 3rd of the time or less. The goal isn't to run PURE TRIANGLE every moment of the game. Let's give this more than a DAY to start worrying. JESUS!!!

EnySpree wrote:Sigh....

Sometimes it is better to concede a point to maintain credibility. Using triangle spacing 25% of the time means nothing. Specifically where Hornacek has indicated that he believes triangle spacing is outdated as pre 3pt line and that they were modifying the spacing.

You've been correct that ideas of floor balance and the dynamic read of the floor are key components of triangle. And most other viable basketball systems. Add in the SSOL mentality to run it all at breakneck and it is just a different offense. Like Derrick Rose says.

Moonangie wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Sigh....

Agree. Yet another triangle-dis thread. This would be more appropriate AFTER we see how Rose/Noah either mangle or thrive in the hybrid Horny system. Give them a chance to earn your contempt before slinging it.

Especially since we're talking about comments after the FIRST SESSION of work on the Triangle. I mean talk about supersensitive. Let's allow them to install the offense and work on it a bit.

nixluva wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Sigh....

Agree. Yet another triangle-dis thread. This would be more appropriate AFTER we see how Rose/Noah either mangle or thrive in the hybrid Horny system. Give them a chance to earn your contempt before slinging it.

Especially since we're talking about comments after the FIRST SESSION of work on the Triangle. I mean talk about supersensitive. Let's allow them to install the offense and work on it a bit.

do you have a record of how often rose actually practiced working in the triangle since he signed for 21 million dollars in june?

** Noah, Rose, Lee, and Jennings MUST be made to understand this and commit themselves to it

Malcolm wrote:My position (for those unfamiliar):

** I want the Knicks to run the Triangle

** They were not so good at the Triangle last year
** They were not so good last year because it takes full time effort and
devotion to learn the Triangle (which they got only after Rambis replaced
Afflalo with Vujacic)

** Rose, Noah, Lee, and Jennings are great additions skill-wise
** But now the Triangle learning curve starts at ZERO again this season

** THERE'S NO QUICK FIX (like Fisher tried to do)

** Knicks must follow the learning curve and avoid temptation to "get better" by
avoiding it

** Noah, Rose, Lee, and Jennings MUST be made to understand this and commit themselves to it

aren't all of these things rhetorical? Also, I don't think the learning curve starts at zero, plenty of return guys.

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I don't see this as a Triangle dis-thread. I see it as a factual disproof of an assumption that has been used to skew many arguments om this board for the entire offseason. That assumption has been that there will be no learning curve because Thibodeau uses the triangle so that both Rose and Noah are already familiar.

That assertion is factually inaccurate because Rose verbatim says "its complicated because it is new to us. It is foreign".

So, while you can argue that Rose and Noah are going to gel better than Gary Payton and Karl Malone did in LA, you cannot say it is a non issue because they already know triangle. Rose does not.

All evidence indicates there is a learning curve.

Thank you . . .

So yea... The NEW coach, is going to be teaching the players a NEW system. Based on prior experience some may have some experience some may not.

When we are 15 games in or so and our record stinks and our PGs are playing like they don't know what to do lets chat then. This whole thread is based on a one line comment after the 2nd day of training camp. Then we get a thread jumping on Nix saying SEE!!!! I TOLD YOU!!!!

Sheesh.

Sigh.

EwingsGlass wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I don't see this as a Triangle dis-thread. I see it as a factual disproof of an assumption that has been used to skew many arguments om this board for the entire offseason. That assumption has been that there will be no learning curve because Thibodeau uses the triangle so that both Rose and Noah are already familiar.

That assertion is factually inaccurate because Rose verbatim says "its complicated because it is new to us. It is foreign".

So, while you can argue that Rose and Noah are going to gel better than Gary Payton and Karl Malone did in LA, you cannot say it is a non issue because they already know triangle. Rose does not.

All evidence indicates there is a learning curve.

I really don't understand the reason you need to single out nixluva. Bet you couldn't wait all these months to make this thread. Of course they are going to say it will be different or difficult or learning curve. No matter what offense the run it would be difficult especially being in a new team.

I bet if we show Rose the video that Nixluva and I posted showing the Bulls running basic triangle sets Rose would be dumbfounded. By the way I just want to repeat that there is a video out there showing the Bulls running triangle sets.... I dunno if nixluva wants to repost it again. I for sure we'll not... it's on youtube and it was talked about on here 3 or 4 times already.

Listen, if there are faulty assumptions used to argue a specific point AND characterize people as haters because they do not believe the transition will be magical, then there should be accountabilty.

I'm not saying "I hate NixLuvs". I enjoy his optimism. In fact, I consider myself punchdrunk on KoolAid also. But, guys are made out to be unbelievers because they don't automatically assume a seamless transition for a starting lineup with 3 new players.

I'm chiming in on Nix in particular because he posted some triangle pictures to disprove my assertion that the triangle needs updating -- specifically to expand the spacing beyond the three point line because it optimizes long 2s that are inefficient. Because he posted a graph with a triangle on it, I was wrong, he was right. Then Hornacek and Phil Jackson said the same thing I said. No accountability.

If you are going to argue right and wrong, yes or no, up or down, left or right -- be right. And if you are wrong, own it. He was wrong. Own it.

You say Dont worry, Rose knows this. And Rose says, I dont know this. Own it.

So when talking about the Triangle over the years i've gone overboard showing every conceivable variation that I could. I based everything I wrote on ACTUAL video or stills or Tex Winters own HAND WRITTEN plays or explanations. I've written that the offense is in fact FLEXIBLE and there has never been just ONE WAY to run the offense and that there have been many coaches who have run the offense differently. There are coaches that only take pieces or concepts from the Triangle and mix it with their own offense. No one is arguing with me on the X's and O's, but rather vague points that don't really have a right or wrong answer.

Because coaches have been using Triangle concepts for years but not the entire system, with it's rules for Automatics and unique Verbiage, that means that a player may have run the offense great but not have been aware of the technical things that Phil, Tex or Rambis will try to teach these players. As I've said every NFL coach that runs the "West Coast Offense" is gonna do it differently. For goodness sakes can we give it more than a few days before we try to assess how it's going?

EnySpree wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I don't see this as a Triangle dis-thread. I see it as a factual disproof of an assumption that has been used to skew many arguments om this board for the entire offseason. That assumption has been that there will be no learning curve because Thibodeau uses the triangle so that both Rose and Noah are already familiar.

That assertion is factually inaccurate because Rose verbatim says "its complicated because it is new to us. It is foreign".

So, while you can argue that Rose and Noah are going to gel better than Gary Payton and Karl Malone did in LA, you cannot say it is a non issue because they already know triangle. Rose does not.

All evidence indicates there is a learning curve.

Thank you . . .

Let me simply say this. If a new coach comes in and there isn't a learning curve, that coach sucks. Unless you are from the Mike DAntoni school of coaching which runs 2 plays:
1) cmon cmon cmon!!!!
and of course our favorite
2) lets go lets go lets go!

So yea... The NEW coach, is going to be teaching the players a NEW system. Based on prior experience some may have some experience some may not.

When we are 15 games in or so and our record stinks and our PGs are playing like they don't know what to do lets chat then. This whole thread is based on a one line comment after the 2nd day of training camp. Then we get a thread jumping on Nix saying SEE!!!! I TOLD YOU!!!!

Sheesh.

Sigh.

That learning curve played a big part in us being one of the worst teams in the league the last few seasons. The Triangle isnt easy to learn, never has never been. All EwingsGlass is saying is that this issue remains. To what degree with Hornacek blending in more familiar schemes, remains to be seen. Not really sigh worthy IMO.

I don't want to get into what you think he's saying. What he is saying is he wants to crucify nixluva over a passing comment. Premeditated whining in the 1st degree

No one whines about other posters on this board more than you do, there isn't even a close second.