The Logo, "Mr Clutch", 9 title appearences, one title. He and wilt ran into a buzzsaw call the knicks. Lakers did win in 1972.

Joe Frazier had Ali. Michelson had Tiger Woods. Ewing had Jordan. History happens.

Lebron carried the Cav's to its first finals and ran into the Spurs. Miami, they let one get away but went 2-2.

Finals are not easy business. The gold standard of the bulls 6-0 and Spurs 5-1 is the benchmark. Many label Lebron "a loser". He can go in the corner with West and Wilt and sulk.
GSW in two seasons is 170-34. Cav's were built to beat the Spurs. Not this juggernut. Who thought Draymond Green could be this good? Curry came from Davidson, not duke or Kentucky and Minny passed him over TWICE. Shame on them but really, nobody thought he'd be this good!! He even missed most of year 3 with a bad ankle. Be happy we didn't draft him, cuz we'd have trade him and others for Melo! Who thought this team would have changed the geometry of the game?

Historically, Lakers have LOST 15 FINALS SERIES!!!!! yep, 16-15! Celtics in the finals are 17-4, 76ers are 3-6, Knicks 2-6, Pistons 3-4, Heat 2-3, Rockets 2-2, Bullets/Wiz, Sonics/Thunder and ST Louis Hawks are 1-3. Royals/Kings 1-0, Blazers 1-2, Mavs 1-1, The Nevers: Cavs, Jazz, Suns,magic 0-2, Pacers 0-1

Never Even been to finals: Nuggs (did in the ABA),Braves/Clippers, Wolves, Hornets/Pels, Hornets/Bobcats, Grizz and DJ's Raptors. 12 of 30 never won. Phucking Celts and Lakers have 31 themselves!!
Want to understand continuity? Look at this http://www.nba.com/lakers/history/owners_gm_coach Celtics? Auerbach, then he hired former players to coach. Continuity matters.

Bascially Cleveland has no system or continuity. Lebron is greatest of this generation but it can't always get you over the top. Oscar Robertson ran into this, Wilt, West, Elgin Baylor, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton/Malone. Jordan had ownership, and GM for an 10 year run!!!! Kobe had similar in Lakerland. Great solid ownership and Management team. Cleveland lost its way at no fault of their own they built their team to beat Spurs, but then history happened called GSW. Lue is not as good as Blatt!!!!

Lebron is 31. Best of this generation. The expectations of greatness has been fulfilled but winning a chip is not easy. Jordans 6-0 and Kobe's 5 set the bar. WE forget how great the Lakers were constructed for Kobe and the System that was around Jordan. Duncan's 5 is somehow lesser for some reason??

Teams matter. Patience matters.

Nalod wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Is this a Lebron excuse thread? Didn't GM Lebron hand pick this roster from Love over Wiggins, JR and Shumpert, and A-OK'ing Channing Frye? Didn't he fire his old coach that won a ton of games and hand pick his new coach? Isn't his team completely healthy?

An excuse thread? Depends on if you read it thru Shyt stained glasses.
My point is what Lebron has done by reaching the finals should not diminish his career. The hype was born from fans looking for the next big one, and we hailed this kid while he was still in high school.
Lebron did not live up to the golden standard set by Jordan, but he was not fortunate enough to be part of a "team". Just because he might be to "Blame" does not diminish what he has done. Blame is big with you. I get it.

It's not shyt-stained glasses, they're reality based lenses.

Lebron made his bed, now he has to lay in it. Is he still great, no doubt. Is his legacy tainted or diminished? You betcha.

Phil has every reason to be proud of his success with the Triangle. At the same time, the NBA is continuously evolving. Phil has acknowledged that the Triangle might need updating. This was in my opinion one of the best moves he's made since becoming Knicks president. It demonstrates(to me) that Phil is open to new ideas, new ways for this franchise to be competitive.

Nalod wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Nalod wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Is this a Lebron excuse thread? Didn't GM Lebron hand pick this roster from Love over Wiggins, JR and Shumpert, and A-OK'ing Channing Frye? Didn't he fire his old coach that won a ton of games and hand pick his new coach? Isn't his team completely healthy?

An excuse thread? Depends on if you read it thru Shyt stained glasses.
My point is what Lebron has done by reaching the finals should not diminish his career. The hype was born from fans looking for the next big one, and we hailed this kid while he was still in high school.
Lebron did not live up to the golden standard set by Jordan, but he was not fortunate enough to be part of a "team". Just because he might be to "Blame" does not diminish what he has done. Blame is big with you. I get it.

It's not shyt-stained glasses, they're reality based lenses.

Lebron made his bed, now he has to lay in it. Is he still great, no doubt. Is his legacy tainted or diminished? You betcha.

I guess you can't help yourself. When the bowels move, you answer the call.

My point was few teams are able to win chips. continuity of coach's/managers are historically important. I don't blame the Cav's or Lebron. Its just historically significant that there are at times teams/players that interrupt what we assume is destiny.
Is Ewing to Blame for knicks "failures"?

Ewing's best running mates were Starks(1 lone all star appearance and 1 sixth man of the year), Oakley(1 all star appearance), Mason(1 sixth man of the year), and Harper(no all star appearance). Lebron had Dwade, Bosh, Ray Allen, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving.

Shyt poor comparison.

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:Wilt Chamberlin the most dominant player statistically ever. Played on 1967 Sixers whom won 68 games. At that time, that was the best winning % EVER. Better than any Celtic team. That was his first chip. One more with the Lakers. Wilt was 2-6. History dealt Wilt the Celtics.

The Logo, "Mr Clutch", 9 title appearences, one title. He and wilt ran into a buzzsaw call the knicks. Lakers did win in 1972.

Joe Frazier had Ali. Michelson had Tiger Woods. Ewing had Jordan. History happens.

Lebron carried the Cav's to its first finals and ran into the Spurs. Miami, they let one get away but went 2-2.

Finals are not easy business. The gold standard of the bulls 6-0 and Spurs 5-1 is the benchmark. Many label Lebron "a loser". He can go in the corner with West and Wilt and sulk.
GSW in two seasons is 170-34. Cav's were built to beat the Spurs. Not this juggernut. Who thought Draymond Green could be this good? Curry came from Davidson, not duke or Kentucky and Minny passed him over TWICE. Shame on them but really, nobody thought he'd be this good!! He even missed most of year 3 with a bad ankle. Be happy we didn't draft him, cuz we'd have trade him and others for Melo! Who thought this team would have changed the geometry of the game?

Historically, Lakers have LOST 15 FINALS SERIES!!!!! yep, 16-15! Celtics in the finals are 17-4, 76ers are 3-6, Knicks 2-6, Pistons 3-4, Heat 2-3, Rockets 2-2, Bullets/Wiz, Sonics/Thunder and ST Louis Hawks are 1-3. Royals/Kings 1-0, Blazers 1-2, Mavs 1-1, The Nevers: Cavs, Jazz, Suns,magic 0-2, Pacers 0-1

Never Even been to finals: Nuggs (did in the ABA),Braves/Clippers, Wolves, Hornets/Pels, Hornets/Bobcats, Grizz and DJ's Raptors. 12 of 30 never won. Phucking Celts and Lakers have 31 themselves!!
Want to understand continuity? Look at this http://www.nba.com/lakers/history/owners_gm_coach Celtics? Auerbach, then he hired former players to coach. Continuity matters.

Bascially Cleveland has no system or continuity. Lebron is greatest of this generation but it can't always get you over the top. Oscar Robertson ran into this, Wilt, West, Elgin Baylor, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton/Malone. Jordan had ownership, and GM for an 10 year run!!!! Kobe had similar in Lakerland. Great solid ownership and Management team. Cleveland lost its way at no fault of their own they built their team to beat Spurs, but then history happened called GSW. Lue is not as good as Blatt!!!!

Lebron is 31. Best of this generation. The expectations of greatness has been fulfilled but winning a chip is not easy. Jordans 6-0 and Kobe's 5 set the bar. WE forget how great the Lakers were constructed for Kobe and the System that was around Jordan. Duncan's 5 is somehow lesser for some reason??

Teams matter. Patience matters.

walt frazier, in his awesome book "the game within the game" stated the following axiom : teamwork and defense are the hallmark of champions. hence, it is clear that a student of the game will assess lebron james and his teams from that standpoint. it is clear that the cavaliers' defense is an absolute horror show.

and on offense? even if it is an afterthought in assessing the cavs in this finals, you have to wonder what is going on. i mean sure, lebron is filling up the stat sheet just like westbrook fills up a stat sheet, or better. yet his generosity does not seem to generate much teamwork. i mean, it seems like there's a difference between one player "getting others involved" on the one hand, and on the other hand everyone working together keeping everyone else involved. seventeen team assists game 1 and 15 team assists in game 2. that's not going to get it done.

My take is not so much "Whats wrong with the Cav's", its really about whats right with GSW. They are just killing them.
That makes them look deficient and radio is playing this up. Is the story so much about Lebrons legacy or the fact GSW has only lost like 34 games in the last 2 years. 73 wins is no joke.
Wilt used to fill up the stat sheet at his will. The Celtics filled up the trophy case. Team over talent. My take is I am not blasting Lebron. Seems when we say "it tarnish's his legacy" its as if the legacy was written first, then when unfulfilled its tarnished. Lebron came into this world with great fanfare. To me he lived up to it. He was an amazing rookie. What he can't do, nor could anyone is carry teams to multiple chips.

Here is the big one: If he didn't "Lose" so many finals, say just was 2-2 in the post season, would his legacy be different? Look at Jerry west. The logo is Iconic in many ways. He didn't win until his 8th final appearance! He was hailed as "Finally got over the hump". Oscar Robertson played in one final after getting traded to Milwaukee and teaming up with Kareem. He was considered the best of his generation!

Joe Frazier was champ because Ali went to Jail. If not, Im not sure we talk about him as much.

In this age of Free agency Lebron was able to bolt to Miami and win, and then came back to Clev. Not because he wanted to "come home" but because they had rebuilt. Seemingly they are not great a team as we can point to the East being weak. Its a four team league, three of them were out west. Back in the day players did not have the kind of freedom to move as they wish.

arkrud wrote:LeBron is a bbal superman.
His issue he cannot surrender to the fact that championships are build by GMs and coaches regardless of how good best player(s) are.
And dynasties are build by players, coaches, and GMs who surrender to the Team. Who became a part of the bigger thing, bigger that parts, bigger than life.
He thinks that he entitled to build his own destiny and this limits his legacy, this robed him from becoming the GOAT.
Sometimes it is just luck, sometimes man just get only what he deserves.

Funny, Jordan had a problem with Krause who thought he was the architect of the bulls. Thorn drafted Jordan.
Lebron went that route because Cav's enabled it. They were afraid he'd leave. He did anyway. As you know, im not into the "Blame" thing.
If anything, Lebron should have hired his own "GM". The construction of the team still got him to the Finals!!!
one thing for sure is Lue to me got out coached by Casey in Toronto, and is really getting his head handed to him by Kerr.

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

arkrud wrote:LeBron is a bbal superman.
His issue he cannot surrender to the fact that championships are build by GMs and coaches regardless of how good best player(s) are.
And dynasties are build by players, coaches, and GMs who surrender to the Team. Who became a part of the bigger thing, bigger that parts, bigger than life.
He thinks that he entitled to build his own destiny and this limits his legacy, this robed him from becoming the GOAT.
Sometimes it is just luck, sometimes man just get only what he deserves.

Funny, Jordan had a problem with Krause who thought he was the architect of the bulls. Thorn drafted Jordan.
Lebron went that route because Cav's enabled it. They were afraid he'd leave. He did anyway. As you know, im not into the "Blame" thing.
If anything, Lebron should have hired his own "GM". The construction of the team still got him to the Finals!!!
one thing for sure is Lue to me got out coached by Casey in Toronto, and is really getting his head handed to him by Kerr.

how are you so sure that Lue got outcoached? Was lue outcoached going undefeated and blowing teams out before that toronto loss?

Cleveland won on talent. Im not sure BTW. I said "To Me". See, Nalod don't speak as if he the authority. Im stating my opinion, So no, Im not sure.
Game 2 against the Warriors I saw Love go down and Cav's gave up. Why? In my opinion they did not have an answer. GSW Is winning and Cav's look lost.
They in my opinion have too much talent for two beat downs like we saw.
Love is the scapegoat. Problem is Kyrie don't know how to play team ball or defend, JR only takes 9 shots in two games, and seemingly they have to "get Love going" for them to be effective.
I don't know why they fired blatt, but if winning championships was the reason, Im not seeing that they figured out Lebron, Love and Kyrie.

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

arkrud wrote:LeBron is a bbal superman.
His issue he cannot surrender to the fact that championships are build by GMs and coaches regardless of how good best player(s) are.
And dynasties are build by players, coaches, and GMs who surrender to the Team. Who became a part of the bigger thing, bigger that parts, bigger than life.
He thinks that he entitled to build his own destiny and this limits his legacy, this robed him from becoming the GOAT.
Sometimes it is just luck, sometimes man just get only what he deserves.

Funny, Jordan had a problem with Krause who thought he was the architect of the bulls. Thorn drafted Jordan.
Lebron went that route because Cav's enabled it. They were afraid he'd leave. He did anyway. As you know, im not into the "Blame" thing.
If anything, Lebron should have hired his own "GM". The construction of the team still got him to the Finals!!!
one thing for sure is Lue to me got out coached by Casey in Toronto, and is really getting his head handed to him by Kerr.

how are you so sure that Lue got outcoached? Was lue outcoached going undefeated and blowing teams out before that toronto loss?

Cleveland won on talent. Im not sure BTW. I said "To Me". See, Nalod don't speak as if he the authority. Im stating my opinion, So no, Im not sure.
Game 2 against the Warriors I saw Love go down and Cav's gave up. Why? In my opinion they did not have an answer. GSW Is winning and Cav's look lost.
They in my opinion have too much talent for two beat downs like we saw.
Love is the scapegoat. Problem is Kyrie don't know how to play team ball or defend, JR only takes 9 shots in two games, and seemingly they have to "get Love going" for them to be effective.
I don't know why they fired blatt, but if winning championships was the reason, Im not seeing that they figured out Lebron, Love and Kyrie.

saw many questioning Kerr when the took 2 horrible beat downs from OKC.

I personally think that Kyrie is the problem. Dude just takes the wind out of team ball. Same with Westbrook though westbrook is a super freak that makes up for it by be so freakin talented. Kyrie is not good enough to be a flashy hog.

I don't think that Blatt does a better job here.

Also, perhaps we should see what happens tonight cause if the cavs win, posters will just flip on a dime like they did with Toronto and Derozen. First Derozen sucked, then a bunch of threads screaming about how great derozen would be for us, then more Derozen sucks.

Fickle city.

I am sure that TO ME, Lebron is a sh1tty GM.

arkrud wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

arkrud wrote:LeBron is a bbal superman.
His issue he cannot surrender to the fact that championships are build by GMs and coaches regardless of how good best player(s) are.
And dynasties are build by players, coaches, and GMs who surrender to the Team. Who became a part of the bigger thing, bigger that parts, bigger than life.
He thinks that he entitled to build his own destiny and this limits his legacy, this robed him from becoming the GOAT.
Sometimes it is just luck, sometimes man just get only what he deserves.

Funny, Jordan had a problem with Krause who thought he was the architect of the bulls. Thorn drafted Jordan.
Lebron went that route because Cav's enabled it. They were afraid he'd leave. He did anyway. As you know, im not into the "Blame" thing.
If anything, Lebron should have hired his own "GM". The construction of the team still got him to the Finals!!!
one thing for sure is Lue to me got out coached by Casey in Toronto, and is really getting his head handed to him by Kerr.

how are you so sure that Lue got outcoached? Was lue outcoached going undefeated and blowing teams out before that toronto loss?

Cleveland won on talent. Im not sure BTW. I said "To Me". See, Nalod don't speak as if he the authority. Im stating my opinion, So no, Im not sure.
Game 2 against the Warriors I saw Love go down and Cav's gave up. Why? In my opinion they did not have an answer. GSW Is winning and Cav's look lost.
They in my opinion have too much talent for two beat downs like we saw.
Love is the scapegoat. Problem is Kyrie don't know how to play team ball or defend, JR only takes 9 shots in two games, and seemingly they have to "get Love going" for them to be effective.
I don't know why they fired blatt, but if winning championships was the reason, Im not seeing that they figured out Lebron, Love and Kyrie.

I think it simple... When the talent bar is so high as in NBA playoffs finals you need players with heart and determination to move the ladder. The heart and determination Bosh/Wade show is second to none. LeBron added unmatched skills and power to the equation and supper-friends worked out. Nothing like that with Lowe/Kyrie... and Bron is not a spring chicken.
Same right idea but wrong personal. Each Supper-friend lead his own team into the battle before join forces and this was in my opinion the biggest thing.

Great observation arkrud. Love and Kyrie have all the talent in the world, but something is missing from both of them. They put up numbers like nobody's business on a regular basis, but when the chips are in the middle and the stakes are high they disappear. Grit, determination, toughness, heart, will power, clutch gene....something is definitely missing with those 2.