However that's the only way i can explain the current dilemma (a bunch of contradictions)

1. Coach Rambis wants to earn a full time position as coach. He believes he must play his best players (KP and Melo) as much as possible to win
= Melo might make that knee worse with chronic over playing
= I agree with KP getting as much playing time as possible
= struggling players like Grant and D. Williams WONT get playing time
= D Williams WONT opt out if teams dont get to see how "good" he is

2. President Phil Jackson wants to prove that his triangle philosophy works
= players struggle, simply trying to LEARN the "complicated" system
= no free agent PG wants to play in it (which happens to be what we need
= he will ignore coaches who DONT run the triangle (which happens to be a good coach in thibs)

3. Carmelo wants to win NOW yet we're not good
= signed older vets to win now and nuture the young but theyre not good
= the knicks (were) close but just needed a PG yet not assets to make a deal
= knicks need to rebuild yet no draft picks
= and of course Melo says he wants to stay so that he doesnt want to look bad for leaving

This has turned into a mess and I'm shocked Phil let it get to this point

callmened wrote:(i just love this title)

However that's the only way i can explain the current dilemma (a bunch of contradictions)

1. Coach Rambis wants to earn a full time position as coach. He believes he must play his best players (KP and Melo) as much as possible to win
= Melo might make that knee worse with chronic over playing
= I agree with KP getting as much playing time as possible
= struggling players like Grant and D. Williams WONT get playing time
= D Williams WONT opt out if teams dont get to see how "good" he is

2. President Phil Jackson wants to prove that his triangle philosophy works
= players struggle, simply trying to LEARN the "complicated" system
= no free agent PG wants to play in it (which happens to be what we need
= he will ignore coaches who DONT run the triangle (which happens to be a good coach in thibs)

3. Carmelo wants to win NOW yet we're not good
= signed older vets to win now and nuture the young but theyre not good
= the knicks (were) close but just needed a PG yet not assets to make a deal
= knicks need to rebuild yet no draft picks
= and of course Melo says he wants to stay so that he doesnt want to look bad for leaving

This has turned into a mess and I'm shocked Phil let it get to this point

We all forget that Phil is a NOOB executive too. This is his first rodeo as a decision maker so he kinda sucks and making stupid mistakes. From Picking Fisher to trading for Calderon to signing Vujacic to drafting but not developing Grant...endless gaffes.

His saving grace (if he lasts the remainder of his contract) is drafting KP and not strapping us with lengthy bad contracts. He'll get probably this off season to show if he's a true basketball genius, or over hyped over the hill out of touch retard.

Even so the Knicks are 18th in the league in offensive efficiency. Look at their starting backcourt, as a team they neither have a good post up presence or a great penetration (or scoring) guard. Despite that they rank ahead on offense vs teams like Washington, Detroit, Miami, Indiana, Chicago and Orlando. A few of those teams are more talented than us on offense. You could run any other offense with this team and they'd likely even be worse since a typical point guard reliant offense with Jose/Grant/Galloway as your top 3 playmakers would go to hell real fast.

WaltLongmire wrote:I was about to start a similar thread...but will not post it.
Yours adds more stuff to the discussion, too.

This is what I had so far:

Subject: Is what is best for Rambis' future best for the Knicks going forward?

Message: And what is the dynamic between Rambis and Jackson?

They are supposedly very good friends, but for me there is a fundamental conflict between Rambis' best interests and those of the Knicks.

The development of KP and Grant, yes, Grant, should be the biggest concern for the Knicks going forward. See whether guys like Gallo, WilliamsIf you want to call this part of Fisher's "process," fine, but at some point the development of certain players is more important than winning games, however disappointing this is to folks.

KP should be the focal point of the offense, and getting 20 shots/game, and Grant should be getting 30MPG so we can see whether we have someone who can lead the team, or a guy destined to be a career bench player.

Yet Rambis also wants to prove that he deserves another shot as a head coach, and he has to know that if Phil brings in a guy like Thibs, there is a good chance that his tenure with the Knicks will be over.

So Rambis' attempts to win games with players who will not be part of the future success of the Knicks, seems at odds developing a team that can win some games in the future.

They are also talking about this on ESPN 98.7 at this very moment (4:53)

Pretty messed up situation...everything that can be seen as an option seems to be at odds with something else that might also be done.

Amazing that so much of the drama and the turning point of this season might be linked to Melo stepping on a ref's foot...and that we will never be able to experience the alternate reality that might have occurred had the ref actually moved out of the way, or had Anthony seen him and adjusted his step.

Lots of frustration for everyone involved with, or rooting for, this franchise.

Agree all around.

One of the things that disconcerted me about the Fisher firing is that we had to give up the fantasy that we finally had a coach and front office on the same page and everyone working toward one goal.

I actually thought Fisher was a good coach and learning and improving. The Melo/ref trip and the Matt Barnes situation did him in. One was just bad, one was incredibly poor judgment.

And we're in a bigger mess than ever before. Tough season.

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:Your watching your best player break down before your very eyes. Some here think he is having his best season I think he is have one of the worst. His shooting percentage is awful and that is suppose to be his bread and butter. Phil's biggest mistake was offering a contract to Melo damaged goods. Hopefully Melo waves his NTC and allows the Knicks to get some assets in return.

Yup. People keep saying this is DadMelo or ThisMelo, but in all honesty he's having a terrible season. He's passing a little more, so what. His defense still sucks, his percentages and offensive efficiency have all dropped, and physically he looks worse and worse. No lift, no legs anymore.

Some homer fans see what they want to see though....

Yes indeed, trade this selfish greedy chucker now, please:
NBA REAL +/-
SMALL FORWARDS
PLAYER
1. LeBron James, CLE 82.90 N/A +82.90 37 37.3 26.4 5.6 7.4 49.2 73.3
2. Rudy Gay, SAC 75.30 N/A +75.30 40 35.2 20.2 6.0 4.1 44.8 86.4
3. Gordon Hayward, UTA 74.80 N/A +74.80 45 34.9 19.2 4.7 4.1 45.6 81.1
4. Carmelo Anthony, NY 72.84 N/A +72.84 34 36.1 24.1 6.7 3.1 45.0 79.1
5. Tobias Harris, ORL 69.44 N/A +69.44 41 34.4 17.4 6.6 1.9 46.5 78.8
6. Draymond Green, GS 68.27 N/A +68.27 43 31.9 11.6 8.0 3.6 44.0 69.5
7. Cdler Parsons, DAL 67.15 N/A +67.15 45 32.9 15.5 4.6 2.2 45.7 72.9
8. Luol Deng, MIA 66.21 N/A +66.21 41 32.7 14.3 5.0 1.9 49.6 71.9
9. A Wiggins, MIN 65.84 N/A +65.84 44 33.5 15.2 4.3 1.8 42.9 72.4
10. Kevin Durant, OKC 65.54 N/A +65.54 21 33.1 25.6 6.7 4.1 51.9 85.8

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5

make sure you try and sheehit real good on the other names on that list. Have fun.

Cartman718 wrote:The way I see things actually played out since 1999...

1. Dolan started "taking over" Cablevision, MSG, Knicks in 1999.
2. Post Ewing, Dolan desperately wanted to return the Knicks to greatness and by doing so, cement his legacy as a winner (not having won anything except a silver spoon up his ass prior to that) in life.
3. In his final year with the Pacers, determined to develop the youngsters, Isiah gets to the playoffs yet again (almost 50 win season) and coaches the All Star game.
4. After another first round exit, Larry Bird boldly replaces IT with Carlisle in the off-season.
5. After a terrible start to the next season, Dolan is looking for a new GM. Enter Isiah Thomas.
6. IT knew the right things to say, right approach to schmooze the "white boss" having done his own research on Dolan and having grown up as a survivor.
7. Dolan in his own lack of experience with basketball as a business...he sees Isiah Thomas as a winner because of his resume - 12 time all star, played for Hoosiers, Bad Boy, leading a young Pacers team to playoffs multiple times, All Star game head coach, etc.
8. Dolan sees IT's family history and sees brothers with substance abuse problems and how IT thrived despite that...and the heady mix of that information plus his basketball resume...he sees IT as a winner, something he himself aspires to be.
9. He hires IT and starts developing a professional and personal friendship with someone he now admires.
10. IT knows how to sell himself, and in order to set himself for a long tenure with the Knicks, he hires Larry Brown as coach. He knows fully well that Coach Brown likes players that play "the right way" and will trade anyone for a bag of chips if they don't.
11. IT feels, this should buy me some time, I can now do what I do best...evaluate draft talent and leave the coaching to Brown. Dolan should buy his "break the team down to build it back up" approach.
12. That's a miscalculation and Dolan gets rid of Brown when expectations are not met, then the Anucha thing and TruckBury thing happens, Dolan has no choice but to get rid of Isiah and Steph as well.
13. Embodying the Bros before Hoes mentality, he gives a terrible Coach Chaney 2 contract extensions and hires Wilkens as well, who being a saint compared to his predecessors is unable to adapt to the already changing game.
14. Dolan senses this, and brings in D'Antoni within a week of being given permission by the Suns to talk with other teams.
15. D'Antoni's lack of control with the Suns means he's looking for more control with the Knicks, but Dolan is still all about becoming a winner, and reluctant to give up control.
16. With no Steve Nash'esque point guard to run his team, D'Antoni is forced into resignation and Woodson takes over a Carmelo - Amare led team.
17. Woodson realizes that his 2 stars are one-on-one players primarily and changes SSOL to BullyBall, paying immediate dividends ending the season 18-6, albeit followed by a first round exit against Lebron Wade Bosh led Heat.
18. Things finally seem headed in the right direction with a 54 win season, but a second round exit is leaving a bad taste in many people's mouths from Dolan to Woodson to Melo to Amare and more importantly the fans.
19. Melo is just entering his peak and Amare is at his peak and Chandler is the big many people feel the Knicks need, but Woodson's past with Hawks is hardly magical and no one sees his resume as a "winning" one.
20. Dolan finds that Phil Jackson has somehow become available. After more than a decade of trying to hold on, Dolan has given up on controlling his legacy with the Knicks. He hires Phil Jackson to run the Knicks, assuming the Zen master will easily translate from Unmatched Coach to at least Great GM.
21. Woodson is fired, Kerr picks the Warriors over Knicks and the Knicks end up with Derek Fisher.
22. Dolan is still confident that Jax can convince Carmelo to stay...and he does albeit at a $125 million price tag.
23. Dolan and PJax are betting Carmelo's peak plus NYC's market will be enough to lure other FAs.
24. However, Carmelo's reputation as a ball hog prevents any FAs that matter from joining the Knicks.
25. With consolation acquisitions and Kristaps Porzingis in hand, this season begins with optimism with a 25 point drubbing of the Kidd led Bucks on opening night...on the road.
26. In the first 15 games over the first month or so of the season, the Knicks are hot. 4 game win streak and they are sitting at 8-6. PJax and Steve Mills are looking like early geniuses. Derek Fisher is looking like a real coach.
27. The up and down Knicks are struggling to find any consistency under the ever changing lineups...losing 5, winning 4, losing 4, winning 5.
28. But when PJax sees that the team is not really listening to Fisher's preaching speeches, he makes a change to save the season.
29. Dolan refuses to spend any more money than he already has, and Rambis becomes the next head coach.
30. Lineups remain the same, Rambis in effect saying...I do not really want this high pressure job. I'd rather laugh around and watch pr0n.
31. ThisMelo, DadMelo however is turning eyes and changing his reputation as a ball hog. 3 assists in November, 4 in December, 5 in Jan and Feb, he's making "Cam Newton passes out there".
32. The coaching change may have come too late for the Knicks. Porzingis is tired, Melo somewhat hurt, young players lacking confidence thanks to Fisher.
33. PJax realizes that Dolan wants the Knicks to make the playoffs to de-value the loss of the first round pick next draft, but PJax cannot help this situation without hiring a real head coach.
34. So Melo is frustrated, Rambis is somewhat inept at head coaching, PJax hands are tied, but Dolan is still expecting that his execs will sleep in the bed that they made themselves but somehow still make the playoffs.
35. Meanwhile the terrible guard play (partly because of talent and partly because it was not maximized earlier in the season) is causing the Knicks fans to lose faith in management once again.
36. The pressure is on the Knicks management who paid Carmelo 125 mill and on Melo to deliver.
37. To Dolan, the Management sell is - the role players are not that bad. Carmelo's take - yes they are that bad. Dolan's decision... we should see it by the end of the season. He might be the only owner with balls to fire Phil Jackson before his tenure is over.

The Knicks will continue to remain stuck in the mud until Dolan either sells or realizes he should bring in a GM with an eye to where the future of the game is. Remember Steve Mills is the one that was more responsible for the Porzingis pick than Phil Jax.

RonRon?

martin wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:The way I see things actually played out since 1999...

RonRon?

I like the narrative. Some characters are missing though:

While we are complaining about Melo's knees and salary (5 year, $124 million), remember Allan Houston's knees and salary? (6 years, $100 million)

'05 the CBA had a one-time amnesty that got dubbed the Allan Houston Rule... which of course means we use it on Junkyard Dog.

That's OK, we learned from that for another amnesty opportunity for gimpy-kneed Amar'e (5 years, $100 million)... but is used on Billups to get Tyson, which looked like a good move before flu season kicked in. And of course we eventually buy Amar'e out anyway.

Melo's contract almost seems like a deal in some respects!

martin wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:The way I see things actually played out since 1999...

1. Dolan started "taking over" Cablevision, MSG, Knicks in 1999.
2. Post Ewing, Dolan desperately wanted to return the Knicks to greatness and by doing so, cement his legacy as a winner (not having won anything except a silver spoon up his ass prior to that) in life.
3. In his final year with the Pacers, determined to develop the youngsters, Isiah gets to the playoffs yet again (almost 50 win season) and coaches the All Star game.
4. After another first round exit, Larry Bird boldly replaces IT with Carlisle in the off-season.
5. After a terrible start to the next season, Dolan is looking for a new GM. Enter Isiah Thomas.
6. IT knew the right things to say, right approach to schmooze the "white boss" having done his own research on Dolan and having grown up as a survivor.
7. Dolan in his own lack of experience with basketball as a business...he sees Isiah Thomas as a winner because of his resume - 12 time all star, played for Hoosiers, Bad Boy, leading a young Pacers team to playoffs multiple times, All Star game head coach, etc.
8. Dolan sees IT's family history and sees brothers with substance abuse problems and how IT thrived despite that...and the heady mix of that information plus his basketball resume...he sees IT as a winner, something he himself aspires to be.
9. He hires IT and starts developing a professional and personal friendship with someone he now admires.
10. IT knows how to sell himself, and in order to set himself for a long tenure with the Knicks, he hires Larry Brown as coach. He knows fully well that Coach Brown likes players that play "the right way" and will trade anyone for a bag of chips if they don't.
11. IT feels, this should buy me some time, I can now do what I do best...evaluate draft talent and leave the coaching to Brown. Dolan should buy his "break the team down to build it back up" approach.
12. That's a miscalculation and Dolan gets rid of Brown when expectations are not met, then the Anucha thing and TruckBury thing happens, Dolan has no choice but to get rid of Isiah and Steph as well.
13. Embodying the Bros before Hoes mentality, he gives a terrible Coach Chaney 2 contract extensions and hires Wilkens as well, who being a saint compared to his predecessors is unable to adapt to the already changing game.
14. Dolan senses this, and brings in D'Antoni within a week of being given permission by the Suns to talk with other teams.
15. D'Antoni's lack of control with the Suns means he's looking for more control with the Knicks, but Dolan is still all about becoming a winner, and reluctant to give up control.
16. With no Steve Nash'esque point guard to run his team, D'Antoni is forced into resignation and Woodson takes over a Carmelo - Amare led team.
17. Woodson realizes that his 2 stars are one-on-one players primarily and changes SSOL to BullyBall, paying immediate dividends ending the season 18-6, albeit followed by a first round exit against Lebron Wade Bosh led Heat.
18. Things finally seem headed in the right direction with a 54 win season, but a second round exit is leaving a bad taste in many people's mouths from Dolan to Woodson to Melo to Amare and more importantly the fans.
19. Melo is just entering his peak and Amare is at his peak and Chandler is the big many people feel the Knicks need, but Woodson's past with Hawks is hardly magical and no one sees his resume as a "winning" one.
20. Dolan finds that Phil Jackson has somehow become available. After more than a decade of trying to hold on, Dolan has given up on controlling his legacy with the Knicks. He hires Phil Jackson to run the Knicks, assuming the Zen master will easily translate from Unmatched Coach to at least Great GM.
21. Woodson is fired, Kerr picks the Warriors over Knicks and the Knicks end up with Derek Fisher.
22. Dolan is still confident that Jax can convince Carmelo to stay...and he does albeit at a $125 million price tag.
23. Dolan and PJax are betting Carmelo's peak plus NYC's market will be enough to lure other FAs.
24. However, Carmelo's reputation as a ball hog prevents any FAs that matter from joining the Knicks.
25. With consolation acquisitions and Kristaps Porzingis in hand, this season begins with optimism with a 25 point drubbing of the Kidd led Bucks on opening night...on the road.
26. In the first 15 games over the first month or so of the season, the Knicks are hot. 4 game win streak and they are sitting at 8-6. PJax and Steve Mills are looking like early geniuses. Derek Fisher is looking like a real coach.
27. The up and down Knicks are struggling to find any consistency under the ever changing lineups...losing 5, winning 4, losing 4, winning 5.
28. But when PJax sees that the team is not really listening to Fisher's preaching speeches, he makes a change to save the season.
29. Dolan refuses to spend any more money than he already has, and Rambis becomes the next head coach.
30. Lineups remain the same, Rambis in effect saying...I do not really want this high pressure job. I'd rather laugh around and watch pr0n.
31. ThisMelo, DadMelo however is turning eyes and changing his reputation as a ball hog. 3 assists in November, 4 in December, 5 in Jan and Feb, he's making "Cam Newton passes out there".
32. The coaching change may have come too late for the Knicks. Porzingis is tired, Melo somewhat hurt, young players lacking confidence thanks to Fisher.
33. PJax realizes that Dolan wants the Knicks to make the playoffs to de-value the loss of the first round pick next draft, but PJax cannot help this situation without hiring a real head coach.
34. So Melo is frustrated, Rambis is somewhat inept at head coaching, PJax hands are tied, but Dolan is still expecting that his execs will sleep in the bed that they made themselves but somehow still make the playoffs.
35. Meanwhile the terrible guard play (partly because of talent and partly because it was not maximized earlier in the season) is causing the Knicks fans to lose faith in management once again.
36. The pressure is on the Knicks management who paid Carmelo 125 mill and on Melo to deliver.
37. To Dolan, the Management sell is - the role players are not that bad. Carmelo's take - yes they are that bad. Dolan's decision... we should see it by the end of the season. He might be the only owner with balls to fire Phil Jackson before his tenure is over.

The Knicks will continue to remain stuck in the mud until Dolan either sells or realizes he should bring in a GM with an eye to where the future of the game is. Remember Steve Mills is the one that was more responsible for the Porzingis pick than Phil Jax.

RonRon?

Are you going to nail these to the door at MSG?

jrodmc wrote:

Vmart wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Vmart wrote:Your watching your best player break down before your very eyes. Some here think he is having his best season I think he is have one of the worst. His shooting percentage is awful and that is suppose to be his bread and butter. Phil's biggest mistake was offering a contract to Melo damaged goods. Hopefully Melo waves his NTC and allows the Knicks to get some assets in return.

Yup. People keep saying this is DadMelo or ThisMelo, but in all honesty he's having a terrible season. He's passing a little more, so what. His defense still sucks, his percentages and offensive efficiency have all dropped, and physically he looks worse and worse. No lift, no legs anymore.

Some homer fans see what they want to see though....

right, when some homers touted his scoring, some haters whined about his assists and defense and that he's just an ahole chucker. He raises his all around game, and now it's his worst year ever. Check.

Yes indeed, trade this selfish greedy chucker now, please:
NBA REAL +/-
SMALL FORWARDS
PLAYER
1. LeBron James, CLE 82.90 N/A +82.90 37 37.3 26.4 5.6 7.4 49.2 73.3
2. Rudy Gay, SAC 75.30 N/A +75.30 40 35.2 20.2 6.0 4.1 44.8 86.4
3. Gordon Hayward, UTA 74.80 N/A +74.80 45 34.9 19.2 4.7 4.1 45.6 81.1
4. Carmelo Anthony, NY 72.84 N/A +72.84 34 36.1 24.1 6.7 3.1 45.0 79.1
5. Tobias Harris, ORL 69.44 N/A +69.44 41 34.4 17.4 6.6 1.9 46.5 78.8
6. Draymond Green, GS 68.27 N/A +68.27 43 31.9 11.6 8.0 3.6 44.0 69.5
7. Cdler Parsons, DAL 67.15 N/A +67.15 45 32.9 15.5 4.6 2.2 45.7 72.9
8. Luol Deng, MIA 66.21 N/A +66.21 41 32.7 14.3 5.0 1.9 49.6 71.9
9. A Wiggins, MIN 65.84 N/A +65.84 44 33.5 15.2 4.3 1.8 42.9 72.4
10. Kevin Durant, OKC 65.54 N/A +65.54 21 33.1 25.6 6.7 4.1 51.9 85.8

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5

make sure you try and sheehit real good on the other names on that list. Have fun.

Stats can be misleading. You simply fail to see his injury history. The fact he doesn't play 82 the fast the Knicks move on from Melo the better get younger faster more athletic. Your holding on to hope that he can turn back the clock it just doesn't happen. Get as much for him and move forward. You know and most know your not going to sniff a championship with Melo with a major role in the team.

Funny, the post starts out whining about bad stats, and now stats are just misleading. So that's how that works.

No, I'm noticing that despite his injury history, he's leading the team in every offensive stat. He's not turning the clock back, he's changed his game to move forward. You know and some on here know that even winning a chip with Melo on the team will be explained away some how.

Melo is fine...
If he will shoot less (like 15 per game) and play less (like 25 min) he will be a dream player for rebuilding team.