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This market is absolutely ridiculous!
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TMS
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7/21/2004  9:39 AM
We all have seen some of the more ridiculous contracts that are being signed by role players this offseason...it's like an entire season of Clarence Weatherspoon & Howard Eisley contracts! what the hell is going on in the NBA???

at this point, i'd be perfectly satisfied w/not overpaying for ANYONE & instead signing a Darius Miles to a MLE offer & going into the season more athletic & deeper all around, then seeing what develops at the trading deadline...

if ATL signs Dampier to a FA offer, let them...no need to outbid them to get this guy & drive his price up more than it needs to go...they'll be looking to trade him by the Allstar break, mark my words! this is getting ridiculous & i hope Isiah doesn't just make a trade for the sake of making one while getting ripped off in the process.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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OasisBU
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7/21/2004  9:45 AM
I think teams are gambling that the salary cap tax wont be a factor in the next year or two.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
s3231
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7/21/2004  9:50 AM
Darius is a restricted FA, if we offer the MLE Portland will definitely match considering how well he played for them last year.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
Knicksfan
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7/21/2004  9:52 AM
Posted by TMS:

We all have seen some of the more ridiculous contracts that are being signed by role players this offseason...it's like an entire season of Clarence Weatherspoon & Howard Eisley contracts! what the hell is going on in the NBA???

at this point, i'd be perfectly satisfied w/not overpaying for ANYONE & instead signing a Darius Miles to a MLE offer & going into the season more athletic & deeper all around, then seeing what develops at the trading deadline...

if ATL signs Dampier to a FA offer, let them...no need to outbid them to get this guy & drive his price up more than it needs to go...they'll be looking to trade him by the Allstar break, mark my words! this is getting ridiculous & i hope Isiah doesn't just make a trade for the sake of making one while getting ripped off in the process.

Did you see the contract Ostertag got from the Kings? And the story continues...

Share the MLE with two players, maybe one a backup center like Gadz. Anyway I think Im happy that we haven't been part of the crazy signings in this offseason.
Knicks_Fan
Knicksfan
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7/21/2004  9:53 AM
Posted by OasisBU:

I think teams are gambling that the salary cap tax wont be a factor in the next year or two.

And thats possible
Knicks_Fan
tkf
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7/21/2004  9:58 AM
I much rather sit with this team and develop ariza, sweetney and williams, than to over pay for these role playing bums, cardinal, foyle, Okur, fisher.. come on man these guys are not starters and are getting starters money, big time money, I am really suprised that with the cap the way it is, these teams still haven't learned yet.... I say sit back IT and wait, something will open up, I just don't like what is out there now... Maybe go after miles or mihm but outside of that don't overpay...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
fishmike
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7/21/2004  10:23 AM
TMS... I could not agree more. I have been saying from the get go that while adding Dampier would be nice (not sure $65mm is nice) doing nothing would be just fine. Go into next year with exactly the same roster... Maybe buyout Moochie and let Vin Baker walk in favor of Ariza, DJ and Sweetney getting more PT. You still have Deke and KT to play center behind Nazr. This gives you a chance to see Houston, Marbury and TT together for a stretch of games. If Houston cant go Penny and Frank get more minutes.

Then we are armed w/ Deke, Othella and TSki's ($10mm) contracts at the trading deadline when the REAL firesales take place. I'm sure barring an injury to Marbury we wil be at least .500 as the East is getting WORSE nad playoff bound.

Remember this is a process... lets be a little patient with our new GM. I think since Layden left there is a clear change in the losing atmosphere, there's a clearer commitment to younger players, and we are looking everywhere and anywhere to improve our team.

Remember, expiring contracts rule at the deadline. Tell you a couple guys with will be on the block come then... you know Jason Kidd will be up for grabs (dont need him) but I wouldnt be suprised for a minute to see Maggette or Marion up for grabs.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
VDesai
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7/21/2004  10:36 AM
I'm fine with sitting with our team and developing players, but we have to add someone who can deter people from getting into the lane and block shots, and we should add that guy before the season starts. I'd be dissapointed if we can't improve our roster by adding such a player.
fishmike
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7/21/2004  10:45 AM
I agree 100%, and I think thats our biggest need. Thats probably why Isiah is (was) willing to overpay $65mm to get Dampier, because he can be that guy. We can still be a good scoring and rebounding team, and we can play good team defense even without a shot blocker.

I guess my point is with all the trades injuries and BS in the 2nd half of the year we were still a .500 team. I just dont see how with the East getting worse we dont improve.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
s3231
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7/21/2004  11:22 AM
"Then we are armed w/ Deke, Othella and TSki's ($10mm) contracts at the trading deadline when the REAL firesales take place. I'm sure barring an injury to Marbury we wil be at least .500 as the East is getting WORSE nad playoff bound."





Exactly, by not doing anything now we still improve as a team because the East has gotten a lot worse and we can improve a lot internally through young players like Nazr, Sweets, and Frank. I made a thread awhile ago saying that we could win our division this year without making any moves, and so far I still feel that way now that Martin has officially left the Nets. I completely agree with keeping the expiring contracts until the trading deadline if we cannot make a good trade now. There will always be a team that has fallen out of a playoff race and will most likely look at trading one of their star players (like what we did with Marbury last year). Someone like Ray Allen may be available to us at the trading deadline next year. I really want Dampier to be a Knick, but if we can't get him, we have plenty of other options available to us. No need to worry if we can't get someone like Dampier or Jamal Crawford.

"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
OasisBU
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7/21/2004  11:35 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by OasisBU:

I think teams are gambling that the salary cap tax wont be a factor in the next year or two.

And thats possible

I have read about it being a thought process among GMs and Teams - but I dont know how it is possible. Maybe under the new CBA?? Or they could be thinking the cap will be raised? Who knows but this market is def ridiculous, I dont get it.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
MaTT4281
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7/21/2004  11:41 AM
TMS... I could not agree more. I have been saying from the get go that while adding Dampier would be nice (not sure $65mm is nice) doing nothing would be just fine. Go into next year with exactly the same roster... Maybe buyout Moochie and let Vin Baker walk in favor of Ariza, DJ and Sweetney getting more PT. You still have Deke and KT to play center behind Nazr. This gives you a chance to see Houston, Marbury and TT together for a stretch of games. If Houston cant go Penny and Frank get more minutes.

I still wouldn't be upset if we add a legit center have Nazr as a backup. But as far as I'm concerned, if we get a healthy Houston back, we are a completely different, and better, team.

[Edited by - Matt4281 on 07/21/2004 11:42:37]
TMS
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7/21/2004  11:47 AM
Posted by VDesai:

I'm fine with sitting with our team and developing players, but we have to add someone who can deter people from getting into the lane and block shots, and we should add that guy before the season starts. I'd be dissapointed if we can't improve our roster by adding such a player.

imo, i would MUCH rather try & trade for Ilgauskas who has an ending contract & leaves Isiah w/options at the trade deadline than to pay someone like Dampier upwards of $10 mil/per over 6-7 seasons...Dampier's a good player & i would LOVE to have him, but not at this market's value...i think if the Hawks end up signing him, it will be at less than what he's asking for from the Knicks, & then you could go after him at the trade deadline if you want to

or even better, you make a trade for Ilgauskas now, & then at the trade deadline, teams will be pining for a guy like him either to put them over the hump or to dump big contracts of their own...& you can get some good young talent or end up w/some good picks in the long run.

i just don't want Isiah to put all his eggs into this Dampier trade & end up handcuffing this team over the next several years in the process...if he can get him at a reasonable contract, fine, but there are other options out there & the season won't begin & end w/acquiring Erick Dampier.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
MaTT4281
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7/21/2004  11:50 AM
or even better, you make a trade for Ilgauskas now

According to the last article, the Cavs were the ones who started the trade talks. So do you think they're still up to the KT and filler for Big Z
TMS
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7/21/2004  12:09 PM
i think Isiah should be at least inquiring w/the Cavs & seeing what they want for him...my guess is since the salaries have to match, it would have to be a package of KT (+20% trade kicker), Deke & Othella, which is fine by me, since i want to see Sweetney starting at PF this year anyway & most likely, Isiah is going to re-sign Vin Baker, so you have an able backup at C/PF to fill in for those guys after they're gone.

another good thing this trade accomplishes is it opens up a roster spot for a young guy from the Summer League teams to make the team.

then if Isiah can use the LLE to sign another frontcourt player (i.e. Dan Gadzuric, etc.), i would be perfectly fine w/the following roster to start off the season:

C - Ilgauskas / Baker / Trybanski
PF - Sweetney / Gadzuric
SF - Thomas / Penny
SG - Houston / Shandon
PG - Marbury / Frank / Moochie
IR - Ariza / Barrett / Chan?

you improve the team & you keep your roster flexibility to make further deals down the road this way.

[Edited by - TMS on 07/21/2004 12:10:33]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
CTKnicksfan
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7/21/2004  12:09 PM
Posted by OasisBU:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by OasisBU:

I think teams are gambling that the salary cap tax wont be a factor in the next year or two.

And thats possible

I have read about it being a thought process among GMs and Teams - but I dont know how it is possible. Maybe under the new CBA?? Or they could be thinking the cap will be raised? Who knows but this market is def ridiculous, I dont get it.

This was in Insider a few days ago. Looks like the reampant overspending may trigger the tax after all. Also gives some good insight into how the tax works:

Luxury tax woes

The free spending ways of some NBA teams could end up affecting all 30
franchises by the end of the season. Another reason that teams have been
spending freely this summer is the belief that there won't be a luxury tax for
the 2004-'05 season. Without a luxury tax, going over the roughly $55 million
salary threshold isn't nearly as big a deal.

The luxury tax is triggered when the league-wide salaries and benefits exceed
approximately 61.1 percent of BRI (basketball related income). Next year the
threshold increases to 63.3 percent. If the league-wide salaries and benefits
are less than this amount, then no team pays a tax, regardless of the size of
its payroll. If the tax is triggered, then it is paid by all teams that are over
the luxury-tax threshold in the amount by which their team salary exceeds the
limit.

Because the threshold was increasing by 2 percent, most teams figured the
chances of a luxury tax this season were slim. However, with the huge contracts
being signed, that's now in doubt. In the past several seasons, teams have been
pretty frugal, keeping league-wide salaries and benefits down. If that number
shoots up dramatically, the chances of the luxury tax kicking in improves.
That's lead to a chilling of the market over the past few days. Teams had
largely agreed to contracts with free agents before seeing the
lower-than-expected cap numbers, and with the assumption that the tax wouldn't
be in place. Now that almost everyone is overspending, the entire league could
be in trouble next season.
Knicksfan
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7/21/2004  12:33 PM
Posted by TMS:

i think Isiah should be at least inquiring w/the Cavs & seeing what they want for him...my guess is since the salaries have to match, it would have to be a package of KT (+20% trade kicker), Deke & Othella, which is fine by me, since i want to see Sweetney starting at PF this year anyway & most likely, Isiah is going to re-sign Vin Baker, so you have an able backup at C/PF to fill in for those guys after they're gone.

another good thing this trade accomplishes is it opens up a roster spot for a young guy from the Summer League teams to make the team.

then if Isiah can use the LLE to sign another frontcourt player (i.e. Dan Gadzuric, etc.), i would be perfectly fine w/the following roster to start off the season:

C - Ilgauskas / Baker / Trybanski
PF - Sweetney / Gadzuric
SF - Thomas / Penny
SG - Houston / Shandon
PG - Marbury / Frank / Moochie
IR - Ariza / Barrett / Chan?

you improve the team & you keep your roster flexibility to make further deals down the road this way.

[Edited by - TMS on 07/21/2004 12:10:33]

That would be just perfect, TMS. But I think all that talk about Ilgauskas was only a rumor, nothing else. It would be great if it could happen, but I don't think he is really avaliable. And even if he was, the Cavs would probably want a center back, and althought KT can play center, he is just 6'9" and with Shaq in the East that would be trouble.
Knicks_Fan
TMS
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7/21/2004  2:20 PM
the Cavs still have Battie & Diop...neither are as good as Z obviously, but i think their hole at PF is also a major concern...if they can get 2 starting quality players in a trade for Z & shore up both positions, i think they might do it.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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7/21/2004  2:50 PM
despite him totally torching us I'm not that high on Big Z either. Between injuries and just not being a high energy player I dont love him, but the expiring deal is certainly attractive. I just dont see Cle moving him for a KT/Nazr/Frank combo, but you never know. I would rather just move KT for Battie and Diop. Battie is an excellent defender at the 5 and Diop still has nice upside. KT could move into the starting 4 role for Cle and the dont give up a starter. KT's midranger jumper would fit nicely w/ Z's post game and Lebron's play making.

Then you can include Deke in the Crawford deal and your 04-05 Knicks look like this:
Marbury/Mooch
Houston/Crawford
TT/Penny
Sweetney/Jerome
Battie/Diop/Nazr

Thats some bench....
younger, more athletic and much more energy.

[Edited by - fishmike on 07/21/2004 15:08:25]
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
franco12
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7/21/2004  3:02 PM
Cleveland just got Eric Snow- so I wonder if the rumour was ever an actual offer, if it had been, IT could have easily offered Frank W KT & Nazr- filling a lot of holes for cleveland- unclogging our PF spot & making a major upgrade at the C position
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