Bucks, sitting at 5-7 now, may be regretting signing him, too.

Interesting article on team building, too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/11/18/jury-is-still-out-on-bucks-choosing-greg-monroe-over-brandon-knight/

When Milwaukee Bucks Coach Jason Kidd was asked about the team’s decision to trade Brandon Knight to Phoenix before last season’s trade deadline, he did his best to frame the argument to his liking.

“I wouldn’t say we gave up a lot,” Kidd said before Milwaukee was routed by the Washington Wizards, 115-86, at Verizon Center Tuesday night. “[Knight] was having a great season, and he’s having a great season this year. But it wasn’t [that] we gave up on Brandon. We had a decision to make in our back court.

“It wasn’t Klay Thompson or Stephen Curry. We weren’t going to max out our back court. As an organization, we had a decision to make, and we made it.”

The “decision” that Kidd referred to was whether to give a big contract to Knight or Khris Middleton, as both members of Milwaukee’s back court last season were set to be restricted free agents and receive big paydays after helping the Bucks unexpectedly post a 30-23 record heading into the all-star break.

But by trading Knight, who they sent to Phoenix as part of a three-team trade with the 76ers that saw Milwaukee get point guards Michael Carter-Williams and Tyler Ennis, the Bucks weren’t actually choosing between paying Knight and Middleton; they were choosing between paying Knight and Greg Monroe, their celebrated free agent signing in July.

“When we made the decision to trade [Knight], it gave us the opportunity to not only look at [Carter-Williams], but also flexibility going into the summer,” Kidd said after Tuesday’s loss. “If we were going to commit to both our back-court guys, then we would never have been able to recruit.

“Look, we could have gone the other way, too, and had no problems. At that point, we had to figure out which one we could move, and had the opportunity to get something in return.”

What the trade did was give the Bucks an opportunity to sign Monroe to a three-year, $51.7 million maximum contract in July – easily the biggest move in the franchise’s history. Milwaukee has never exactly been a free agent destination, and for Kidd, General Manager John Hammond and co-owners Wes Edens and Marc Lasry, landing Monroe – who had been courted by the New York Knicks and Los Angeles Lakers, among others – was seen as a landmark signing, and one that could push the Bucks into the next level in the Eastern Conference.

There’s no arguing the significance of a small market in a cold weather location landing a coveted free agent like Monroe. But since Milwaukee traded Knight, a borderline all-star at the time, the Bucks have gone 16-24 in 40 regular season games – including a 5-6 record this year after Tuesday’s blowout loss to the Wizards.

Before the trade, the Bucks had the second-best defensive rating (99.3 points per 100 possessions) in the league last season, per NBA.com, and had an average offense that benefited greatly from the three-point shooting prowess Knight (40.9 percent) and Middleton (40.7) provided to go along with playing terrific defense.

Swapping out Knight for a terrible shooter in Carter-Williams changed that dramatically, sending the Bucks from a respectable offense to one choked for any space. To attempt to counterbalance that, Milwaukee pursued Monroe, hoping that the former Georgetown standout’s ability to score inside would help make up for the team’s lack of spacing and shooting elsewhere.

But the decision to sign Monroe – and, more importantly, to pair him with second-year forward Jabari Parker, who sat out Tuesday’s game with a sprained right foot – has wound up creating more problems than it solved. While Monroe has been productive, averaging 16.5 points and 9.7 rebounds per game thus far, both he and Parker are below-average defensive players. The result has been the Bucks tumbling from the second-best defense in the NBA last season – while Parker was sidelined with a torn ACL and Monroe was in Detroit – to the third-worst in the league through 11 games this season.

Kidd, though, has another theory: the team’s youthful roster still has plenty of learning to do.

“It’s a work in progress,” Kidd said. “You have to go through being on the scouting report … last year we weren’t, and we surprised a lot of people. Now we’re on the scouting report, and there’s a lot of things that are expected from us.

“But we’re not quite ready for that, and we have to go through that.”

crzymdups wrote:Thought this was interesting. I was opposed to signing Monroe - just think he's a total zero on D and his numbers always felt empty.

Bucks, sitting at 5-7 now, may be regretting signing him, too.

Interesting article on team building, too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/11/18/jury-is-still-out-on-bucks-choosing-greg-monroe-over-brandon-knight/

When Milwaukee Bucks Coach Jason Kidd was asked about the team’s decision to trade Brandon Knight to Phoenix before last season’s trade deadline, he did his best to frame the argument to his liking.

“I wouldn’t say we gave up a lot,” Kidd said before Milwaukee was routed by the Washington Wizards, 115-86, at Verizon Center Tuesday night. “[Knight] was having a great season, and he’s having a great season this year. But it wasn’t [that] we gave up on Brandon. We had a decision to make in our back court.

“It wasn’t Klay Thompson or Stephen Curry. We weren’t going to max out our back court. As an organization, we had a decision to make, and we made it.”

The “decision” that Kidd referred to was whether to give a big contract to Knight or Khris Middleton, as both members of Milwaukee’s back court last season were set to be restricted free agents and receive big paydays after helping the Bucks unexpectedly post a 30-23 record heading into the all-star break.

But by trading Knight, who they sent to Phoenix as part of a three-team trade with the 76ers that saw Milwaukee get point guards Michael Carter-Williams and Tyler Ennis, the Bucks weren’t actually choosing between paying Knight and Middleton; they were choosing between paying Knight and Greg Monroe, their celebrated free agent signing in July.

“When we made the decision to trade [Knight], it gave us the opportunity to not only look at [Carter-Williams], but also flexibility going into the summer,” Kidd said after Tuesday’s loss. “If we were going to commit to both our back-court guys, then we would never have been able to recruit.

“Look, we could have gone the other way, too, and had no problems. At that point, we had to figure out which one we could move, and had the opportunity to get something in return.”

What the trade did was give the Bucks an opportunity to sign Monroe to a three-year, $51.7 million maximum contract in July – easily the biggest move in the franchise’s history. Milwaukee has never exactly been a free agent destination, and for Kidd, General Manager John Hammond and co-owners Wes Edens and Marc Lasry, landing Monroe – who had been courted by the New York Knicks and Los Angeles Lakers, among others – was seen as a landmark signing, and one that could push the Bucks into the next level in the Eastern Conference.

There’s no arguing the significance of a small market in a cold weather location landing a coveted free agent like Monroe. But since Milwaukee traded Knight, a borderline all-star at the time, the Bucks have gone 16-24 in 40 regular season games – including a 5-6 record this year after Tuesday’s blowout loss to the Wizards.

Before the trade, the Bucks had the second-best defensive rating (99.3 points per 100 possessions) in the league last season, per NBA.com, and had an average offense that benefited greatly from the three-point shooting prowess Knight (40.9 percent) and Middleton (40.7) provided to go along with playing terrific defense.

Swapping out Knight for a terrible shooter in Carter-Williams changed that dramatically, sending the Bucks from a respectable offense to one choked for any space. To attempt to counterbalance that, Milwaukee pursued Monroe, hoping that the former Georgetown standout’s ability to score inside would help make up for the team’s lack of spacing and shooting elsewhere.

But the decision to sign Monroe – and, more importantly, to pair him with second-year forward Jabari Parker, who sat out Tuesday’s game with a sprained right foot – has wound up creating more problems than it solved. While Monroe has been productive, averaging 16.5 points and 9.7 rebounds per game thus far, both he and Parker are below-average defensive players. The result has been the Bucks tumbling from the second-best defense in the NBA last season – while Parker was sidelined with a torn ACL and Monroe was in Detroit – to the third-worst in the league through 11 games this season.

Kidd, though, has another theory: the team’s youthful roster still has plenty of learning to do.

“It’s a work in progress,” Kidd said. “You have to go through being on the scouting report … last year we weren’t, and we surprised a lot of people. Now we’re on the scouting report, and there’s a lot of things that are expected from us.

“But we’re not quite ready for that, and we have to go through that.”

I think that team overachieved last season and was bound to take a couple of steps back. And its too bad for Monroe, because the struggles will be attributed to him, and i don't think thats necessarily fair.

Brandon Knight
Middleton
Giannis
Jabari
RLopez

Anyway, they didn't. I'm glad they got Monroe and we got Robin.

fishmike wrote:good post. I like Monroe as a player. He's got faults but does some good things. I certainly agree that Lopez is a better fit for the Knicks as Monroe would be another guy who needs the ball.

Yup, less touches for Porzingis.....

WaltLongmire wrote:Have to say that I was ready to embrace Monroe as a Knick, despite his defensive deficiencies. Figured that his passing and rebounding would make up for it, and I was figuring that KP would be a good help defender while Monroe did the dirty work.

I remember reading something early in the year where a columnist on Twitter was saying that OK4 was doing his best to be a worse defender than Parker was when he was at Duke. Did not follow the Parker draft much because the Knicks were not even in the first round, but the reference to Parker's D caught my attention.

Makes sense that pairing a center who is defensively limited with a PF who is also a defensive liability is going to be a problem.

Having the Greek Freak helps out their front line a bit, but if he is at the 3 he has less chance to help out on interior D.

They do have a lot of overall length, but having two bigs who cannot be +defenders is not a good situation.

Kidd has been a good coach in the past...wonder how he will deal with things now?

Well said, unless the "defensive atrocities" are made up for with offensive animosities, then I don't see that team amounting to much.

Two way players every day of the week. I am content with Lopez' lack of offense, because, well, we don't need it that much with where this team is going but his defense and the little
things he brings, in a sense, make up for his lack of offense. He is more an anchor.

If Moneroe was on this team we would be more fun on offense to watch (now), but with KP (and his development) and Melo, yeah, we just don't really want Monroe.
Gallo is improving, KP is improving and think we will be fine on offense. More concerned about keeping the defense up high.
Glad it ended up the way it did. I honestly didn't want Monroe (but would have accepted him here.)

EMS

yellowboy90 wrote:The article really didn't support the case that Monroe is the reason for Milwaukee slow start. Why not give some on off numbers for this year with Monroe. Maybe compare his numbers to Zaza, who Monroe is replacing. The thing I took away from the article is that the Bucks made a stupid trade and didn't get much value back by taking on MCW.

They went from second best defense in the NBA last season to third worst this season. I highlighted that in the original post. Do you need more numbers?

I think it is a mix of not having enough outside shooting - they downgraded in that area from Brandon Knight to MCW. But the defensive downgrade from Zaza to Monroe might also be hurting them quite a bit.

It's just a poorly constructed team.

You can't start a minus defender at 4 and the 5 in the NBA.

yellowboy90 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:The article really didn't support the case that Monroe is the reason for Milwaukee slow start. Why not give some on off numbers for this year with Monroe. Maybe compare his numbers to Zaza, who Monroe is replacing. The thing I took away from the article is that the Bucks made a stupid trade and didn't get much value back by taking on MCW.

They went from second best defense in the NBA last season to third worst this season. I highlighted that in the original post. Do you need more numbers?

I think it is a mix of not having enough outside shooting - they downgraded in that area from Brandon Knight to MCW. But the defensive downgrade from Zaza to Monroe might also be hurting them quite a bit.

It's just a poorly constructed team.

You can't start a minus defender at 4 and the 5 in the NBA.

Yes, I think the readers do need more numbers specific to how Monroe has affected the team defensively. How do I know its not someone else's fault. Do the Bucks play better defense when he is off the floor? Does the numbers look different when he is not paired with Parker?

I just want to see numbers that would support Monroe being a downgrade from Zaza. They used team numbers and pointed out the Knight trade and Monroe pick up. Using the same team numbers I could easily re-word the title of the article: the jury still out on choosing Parker over Ilyasova.

The writer of the article needs to do a better job providing evidence specially to Monroe defining how he is the reason for their defensive woes.

I do agree with you that the roster construction is not that great. They might have to shift down Giannis and Middleton and move Mayo to the starting line up.

does the eye test count? Did you see them play us? Or watch them play against washington?

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:The article really didn't support the case that Monroe is the reason for Milwaukee slow start. Why not give some on off numbers for this year with Monroe. Maybe compare his numbers to Zaza, who Monroe is replacing. The thing I took away from the article is that the Bucks made a stupid trade and didn't get much value back by taking on MCW.

They went from second best defense in the NBA last season to third worst this season. I highlighted that in the original post. Do you need more numbers?

I think it is a mix of not having enough outside shooting - they downgraded in that area from Brandon Knight to MCW. But the defensive downgrade from Zaza to Monroe might also be hurting them quite a bit.

It's just a poorly constructed team.

You can't start a minus defender at 4 and the 5 in the NBA.

Yes, I think the readers do need more numbers specific to how Monroe has affected the team defensively. How do I know its not someone else's fault. Do the Bucks play better defense when he is off the floor? Does the numbers look different when he is not paired with Parker?

I just want to see numbers that would support Monroe being a downgrade from Zaza. They used team numbers and pointed out the Knight trade and Monroe pick up. Using the same team numbers I could easily re-word the title of the article: the jury still out on choosing Parker over Ilyasova.

The writer of the article needs to do a better job providing evidence specially to Monroe defining how he is the reason for their defensive woes.

I do agree with you that the roster construction is not that great. They might have to shift down Giannis and Middleton and move Mayo to the starting line up.

does the eye test count? Did you see them play us? Or watch them play against washington?

Holfresh/Crush is that you?

Yes, I watched the game but like you know the eyes can lie and two people can see different things.

Just look at you and DK argue about an open shot Melo missed. You both saw it differently. Heck, a third person could have argued that he didn't rush the shot and simply missed it.

I just wanted the writer to support his argument better instead of grabbing the low hanging fruit. So me how Zaza did and how Monroe is doing now?

I am a BIG eye test guy too ... you know that. The eyes can definitely lie though so stats are crucial as well.

As far as defense, can't really use much other then the eyes. Stats are pretty weak (at least what we are privy to)

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:The article really didn't support the case that Monroe is the reason for Milwaukee slow start. Why not give some on off numbers for this year with Monroe. Maybe compare his numbers to Zaza, who Monroe is replacing. The thing I took away from the article is that the Bucks made a stupid trade and didn't get much value back by taking on MCW.

They went from second best defense in the NBA last season to third worst this season. I highlighted that in the original post. Do you need more numbers?

I think it is a mix of not having enough outside shooting - they downgraded in that area from Brandon Knight to MCW. But the defensive downgrade from Zaza to Monroe might also be hurting them quite a bit.

It's just a poorly constructed team.

You can't start a minus defender at 4 and the 5 in the NBA.

Yes, I think the readers do need more numbers specific to how Monroe has affected the team defensively. How do I know its not someone else's fault. Do the Bucks play better defense when he is off the floor? Does the numbers look different when he is not paired with Parker?

I just want to see numbers that would support Monroe being a downgrade from Zaza. They used team numbers and pointed out the Knight trade and Monroe pick up. Using the same team numbers I could easily re-word the title of the article: the jury still out on choosing Parker over Ilyasova.

The writer of the article needs to do a better job providing evidence specially to Monroe defining how he is the reason for their defensive woes.

I do agree with you that the roster construction is not that great. They might have to shift down Giannis and Middleton and move Mayo to the starting line up.

does the eye test count? Did you see them play us? Or watch them play against washington?

Holfresh/Crush is that you?

Yes, I watched the game but like you know the eyes can lie and two people can see different things.

Just look at you and DK argue about an open shot Melo missed. You both saw it differently. Heck, a third person could have argued that he didn't rush the shot and simply missed it.

I just wanted the writer to support his argument better instead of grabbing the low hanging fruit. So me how Zaza did and how Monroe is doing now?

I am a BIG eye test guy too ... you know that. The eyes can definitely lie though so stats are crucial as well.

As far as defense, can't really use much other then the eyes. Stats are pretty weak (at least what we are privy to)

Defensive stats are pretty weak but at least give the ones that are out there. I am not saying the writer is wrong I just would like him to do a better job.