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Hinkie's Sixers: Bad Plan, Bad Execution, or both?
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Knixkik
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11/17/2015  2:14 PM
I feel like we should revisit this topic every once in awhile just for general conversation. A lot of what we talk about on this forum is based on how to build a team the right way, the Knicks in general of course. I have always been adamant that i don't like Hinkie's plan to rebuild the Sixers one bit. I think it's too extreme, but mainly i think he has conveniently sold the Sixers organization on job security for himself. Most GM's have 3 years or so to really show progress in the standings, Hinkie has convinced ownership to give him 5 years of salary where he doesn't have to show any sustainable growth in the standings. And here we are year 3 of his "plan", and the team is actually getting worst, if that's even possible.

In 3 years, in fact, with all of those draft picks and flexibility, he has maybe 2 players who are currently playing and look like they could be long-term starters and foundation players. So not only he is not improving a team 3 years into a plan, but the core of players isn't even in place yet. Sixer's ownership could have hired any of us to go into that job and collected and recycled assets without any roster construction or moves that actually require players playing and showing competitive basketball. His plan has been inconsistent as well. I really felt like he would pass over Okafor for Porzingis. Porzingis was labeled as an unknown with great upside, but 3+ years away from contributing. That seems to fit Hinkie's vision. Okafor was expected to be too good too soon for a team like the Sixers not ready to win games yet. In addition, Porzingis was a better fit with their personnel, Embiid and Noels. Hinkie also traded MCW, rookie of the year, for a future unprotected draft pick because he admitted that those don't come around that often, so he had to have it. No real thought process. He seems like when he was a kid he had to have the shiny new toy before everyone else, regardless of what it cost him or if it was even something he was into.

Looking at other teams around the league who have adding young talent/assets around the league; Boston has managed to not only build a gradually improving team from the bottom to a playoff team, but they have also collected as good or better assets than the Sixers. They own control over the Nets picks the next 3 years, either outright or right to swap. So they are a playoff team with a top 5 pick likely the next 3 years. That doesn't count the other picks. Ainge has done it again. Hinkie should take notes, just in case he gets another job in the league when this is all done for him. Minn has a great young team, although they got lucky with 2 #1 picks, that should be taken into account. Even the Knicks, who try to be good every year, and fell hard enough into the fourth pick, managed to draft a player that has more upside than anyone the Sixers have drafted in the past 3 years. That's sad.

To be fair, Hinkie has not had the ping pong balls fall in his favor, nor has he missed out on any stars drafted behind his picks, but that is on him as well, because that is the chance he signed up for when he committed to this process, so he needs to own the fact that the draft has yet to carry the talent level capable of turning his team around where he has selected the past 3 years. And here he is 3 years down, 2 players on the team who might be there for the long-haul, or maybe not. Maybe Okafor and Noels get traded for future draft picks. How long does this last? How long does the Sixers ownership and fan base put up with that? Is 5 years or more of really terrible basketball worth what seems to be the same chance at success as every other team? Do you see any light at the end of the tunnel for them while Hinkie is still employed?

AUTOADVERT
mreinman
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11/17/2015  2:26 PM
Its always good to have a new bumpable post that I can bookmark
so here is what phil is thinking ....
Knixkik
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11/17/2015  2:46 PM
mreinman wrote:Its always good to have a new bumpable post that I can bookmark

So, what is your opinion?

mreinman
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11/17/2015  2:55 PM
Knixkik wrote:
mreinman wrote:Its always good to have a new bumpable post that I can bookmark

So, what is your opinion?

I stated my opinion ad nauseum in the NBA game thread yesterday. I will copy my post in here a bit later.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
mreinman
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11/17/2015  2:56 PM
mreinman wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
mreinman wrote:Its always good to have a new bumpable post that I can bookmark

So, what is your opinion?

I stated my opinion ad nauseum in the NBA game thread yesterday. I will copy my post in here a bit later.


Hinkie is extremely polarizing, there are those who despise him and those who are enamored by what he is doing (many of them geeks) and are watching closely to see what will be the outcome. I am one of those who are watching them closely. I could care less about philly, never have. I find this quite intriguing. I followed Morey the same way and love that he is doing a lot of experimenting, especially with his D-league team.
10 years ago, 95 percent of NBA fans (and teams) would have said that advanced analytics in bball was stupid. Today, 95% have jump on the bandwagon. I think that Hinkie is testing waters that nobody dared to test. Is he flailing a bit? Perhaps he is, but he has also pulled off some stunners. And he is also extremely data driven (which I really like).
I don't care if this takes a number of years, perhaps because I am not a philly fan. I am glad that this is being done even it is experimental. Its fascinating.
Chucking up 40 threes a game maybe considered insane too but I would love to see it tried (morey is testing this in the d-league). Who would have thought that we would be where we are now with the 3 point attempt rate? Everyone thought that it was stupid ... they were all wrong.
Hinkie is running a controversial experiment. Many think it is brilliant and many think that it is insane. Perhaps its a little of both ... lets see how it plays out.
so here is what phil is thinking ....
newyorknewyork
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11/17/2015  2:58 PM
If Embild panned out....

The only thing I don't like is decisions like when they traded MCW. Rather then getting a guard like Knight back who is a high quality guard in this league. They decided go again only look for future assets.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Knixkik
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11/17/2015  3:11 PM
mreinman wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
mreinman wrote:Its always good to have a new bumpable post that I can bookmark

So, what is your opinion?

I stated my opinion ad nauseum in the NBA game thread yesterday. I will copy my post in here a bit later.


Hinkie is extremely polarizing, there are those who despise him and those who are enamored by what he is doing (many of them geeks) and are watching closely to see what will be the outcome. I am one of those who are watching them closely. I could care less about philly, never have. I find this quite intriguing. I followed Morey the same way and love that he is doing a lot of experimenting, especially with his D-league team.
10 years ago, 95 percent of NBA fans (and teams) would have said that advanced analytics in bball was stupid. Today, 95% have jump on the bandwagon. I think that Hinkie is testing waters that nobody dared to test. Is he flailing a bit? Perhaps he is, but he has also pulled off some stunners. And he is also extremely data driven (which I really like).
I don't care if this takes a number of years, perhaps because I am not a philly fan. I am glad that this is being done even it is experimental. Its fascinating.
Chucking up 40 threes a game maybe considered insane too but I would love to see it tried (morey is testing this in the d-league). Who would have thought that we would be where we are now with the 3 point attempt rate? Everyone thought that it was stupid ... they were all wrong.
Hinkie is running a controversial experiment. Many think it is brilliant and many think that it is insane. Perhaps its a little of both ... lets see how it plays out.

You more-less omit, if you are going to refer to these types of threads in the future to see who is right or who is wrong, you should at least let us know if you think it will work the way it is designed, or will fail. I, for one, could care less who is right and who is wrong, i have never bumped a thread in my life, other than for nostalgic purposes. But i would love to hear where people stand with this today, yourself included.

ChuckBuck
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11/17/2015  3:25 PM
fishmike
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11/17/2015  3:38 PM
bad plan, bad execution.

team sports isnt a science experiment or an algo

Ignore the human element and you will fail entirely. Oh.. and dont tell me it *would* have worked if the guys they drafted didnt leave the team. Building a team worth sticking around for is part of the job.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knixkik
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11/17/2015  4:16 PM
fishmike wrote:bad plan, bad execution.

team sports isnt a science experiment or an algo

Ignore the human element and you will fail entirely. Oh.. and dont tell me it *would* have worked if the guys they drafted didnt leave the team. Building a team worth sticking around for is part of the job.

I agree, one area i meant to mention initially but did not is the human element. Hinkie has really treated a lot of players poorly during this process. It's not necessarily deliberate, but its something that has to be taken into account when responsible for building a team. Right now, no one takes that organization seriously, and why should they? What is the advantage of playing there, other than to stand out for an opportunity someplace else? That's not the way to have your organization viewed.

fishmike
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11/17/2015  4:26 PM
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:bad plan, bad execution.

team sports isnt a science experiment or an algo

Ignore the human element and you will fail entirely. Oh.. and dont tell me it *would* have worked if the guys they drafted didnt leave the team. Building a team worth sticking around for is part of the job.

I agree, one area i meant to mention initially but did not is the human element. Hinkie has really treated a lot of players poorly during this process. It's not necessarily deliberate, but its something that has to be taken into account when responsible for building a team. Right now, no one takes that organization seriously, and why should they? What is the advantage of playing there, other than to stand out for an opportunity someplace else? That's not the way to have your organization viewed.

like working for a bank (which I have). All they care about is assets. Zero loyaly and people dont hesitate for one second to leave and take more money. I dont have a problem with stinking and stockpiling picks. Whats the window? Does he not realize all he's doing is teaching these guys to hate the NBA and playing for Phili? what happens when stat guys try to manage humans...
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
mreinman
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11/17/2015  4:46 PM
Knixkik wrote:
mreinman wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
mreinman wrote:Its always good to have a new bumpable post that I can bookmark

So, what is your opinion?

I stated my opinion ad nauseum in the NBA game thread yesterday. I will copy my post in here a bit later.


Hinkie is extremely polarizing, there are those who despise him and those who are enamored by what he is doing (many of them geeks) and are watching closely to see what will be the outcome. I am one of those who are watching them closely. I could care less about philly, never have. I find this quite intriguing. I followed Morey the same way and love that he is doing a lot of experimenting, especially with his D-league team.
10 years ago, 95 percent of NBA fans (and teams) would have said that advanced analytics in bball was stupid. Today, 95% have jump on the bandwagon. I think that Hinkie is testing waters that nobody dared to test. Is he flailing a bit? Perhaps he is, but he has also pulled off some stunners. And he is also extremely data driven (which I really like).
I don't care if this takes a number of years, perhaps because I am not a philly fan. I am glad that this is being done even it is experimental. Its fascinating.
Chucking up 40 threes a game maybe considered insane too but I would love to see it tried (morey is testing this in the d-league). Who would have thought that we would be where we are now with the 3 point attempt rate? Everyone thought that it was stupid ... they were all wrong.
Hinkie is running a controversial experiment. Many think it is brilliant and many think that it is insane. Perhaps its a little of both ... lets see how it plays out.

You more-less omit, if you are going to refer to these types of threads in the future to see who is right or who is wrong, you should at least let us know if you think it will work the way it is designed, or will fail. I, for one, could care less who is right and who is wrong, i have never bumped a thread in my life, other than for nostalgic purposes. But i would love to hear where people stand with this today, yourself included.

I would say that he has a 25-35 percent chance to be the GM in 2 years. Too many in philly calling for his head and its almost impossible to be successful in philly with FA's. Can't remember the last big FA to land in Philly (and that has nothing to do with Hinkie).

If he does go, then the next GM will be more main stream and he will be handed a sh1t load of flexibility.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
mreinman
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11/17/2015  4:47 PM
fishmike wrote:bad plan, bad execution.

team sports isnt a science experiment or an algo

Ignore the human element and you will fail entirely. Oh.. and dont tell me it *would* have worked if the guys they drafted didnt leave the team. Building a team worth sticking around for is part of the job.

much science involved these days. Nobody says to ignore the human element.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Knixkik
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11/17/2015  4:52 PM
mreinman wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
mreinman wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
mreinman wrote:Its always good to have a new bumpable post that I can bookmark

So, what is your opinion?

I stated my opinion ad nauseum in the NBA game thread yesterday. I will copy my post in here a bit later.


Hinkie is extremely polarizing, there are those who despise him and those who are enamored by what he is doing (many of them geeks) and are watching closely to see what will be the outcome. I am one of those who are watching them closely. I could care less about philly, never have. I find this quite intriguing. I followed Morey the same way and love that he is doing a lot of experimenting, especially with his D-league team.
10 years ago, 95 percent of NBA fans (and teams) would have said that advanced analytics in bball was stupid. Today, 95% have jump on the bandwagon. I think that Hinkie is testing waters that nobody dared to test. Is he flailing a bit? Perhaps he is, but he has also pulled off some stunners. And he is also extremely data driven (which I really like).
I don't care if this takes a number of years, perhaps because I am not a philly fan. I am glad that this is being done even it is experimental. Its fascinating.
Chucking up 40 threes a game maybe considered insane too but I would love to see it tried (morey is testing this in the d-league). Who would have thought that we would be where we are now with the 3 point attempt rate? Everyone thought that it was stupid ... they were all wrong.
Hinkie is running a controversial experiment. Many think it is brilliant and many think that it is insane. Perhaps its a little of both ... lets see how it plays out.

You more-less omit, if you are going to refer to these types of threads in the future to see who is right or who is wrong, you should at least let us know if you think it will work the way it is designed, or will fail. I, for one, could care less who is right and who is wrong, i have never bumped a thread in my life, other than for nostalgic purposes. But i would love to hear where people stand with this today, yourself included.

I would say that he has a 25-35 percent chance to be the GM in 2 years. Too many in philly calling for his head and its almost impossible to be successful in philly with FA's. Can't remember the last big FA to land in Philly (and that has nothing to do with Hinkie).

If he does go, then the next GM will be more main stream and he will be handed a sh1t load of flexibility.

You are right, Philly is not a popular free agent destination, however, he is sorely hurting that aspect of their franchise and city, not helping it at all. As we saw in Milwaukee this summer, if it's done correctly, any place can become a good destination for a top free agent. It's all about how you treat people and showing you are progressing towards a winning situation. Sixers do neither.

bigbasketballs
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11/17/2015  5:01 PM
My problem with his plan is I don't think it has any long-term viability.

Veterans win NBA championships. It even took guys like James and Curry to their 6-7th years and they're transcendent players.

Hard to see a core of top 5 picks staying together for any length of time, or the Philly payroll will be astronomical.

In the best case scenario (and not suggesting they're even on that road), what he's breeding is a recipe for constant turnover.

Maybe in a few year they'll be a 45-50 win team that's constantly turning over and that's a plan. But hard to see anything but a fluke long playoff run, and again, that's in the hardly guaranteed best case scenario.

crzymdups
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11/17/2015  5:07 PM
I think Okafor and Nerlens Noel is the beginning of an interesting foundation.

If they strike gold in the lotto this year, they could have three very good young players. Or possibly four if they get that Lakers pick, too.

That said, I think his overall strategy has included a lot of dumb moves. And I think intentionally spending top three picks on injured guys is a foolhardy move.

I think you have to give him through the draft this year and see what their team looks like.

¿ △ ?
knicks1248
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11/17/2015  5:10 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/17/2015  5:13 PM
It's a classic case of drafting talent over need, once you do that, you have no direction. IMO it's way more important to have a balance team as oppose to a talented roster. Thats the reason teams like Mini and phili who sort of stock pile assets, have a hard time putting a quality unit on the floor.

The lakers seem to be headed in that same direction, they have a coach who has a system that doesn't fit his players. That's ass backwards, it's like having stephon marbury and then trading for steve francis, two shoot first pg.

Russel is a lot better than he's playing, but he's not on boadr with byron scott, the same way Lin wasn't on board

ES
bigbasketballs
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11/17/2015  5:14 PM
mreinman wrote:If he does go, then the next GM will be more main stream and he will be handed a sh1t load of flexibility.

As opposed to a roster capable of winning NBA basketball games.

Which again speaks to the new NBA question - is the purpose of your roster to win games, or is the purpose of your roster to be able to be turned over?

CrushAlot
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11/17/2015  6:21 PM
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:bad plan, bad execution.

team sports isnt a science experiment or an algo

Ignore the human element and you will fail entirely. Oh.. and dont tell me it *would* have worked if the guys they drafted didnt leave the team. Building a team worth sticking around for is part of the job.

I agree, one area i meant to mention initially but did not is the human element. Hinkie has really treated a lot of players poorly during this process. It's not necessarily deliberate, but its something that has to be taken into account when responsible for building a team. Right now, no one takes that organization seriously, and why should they? What is the advantage of playing there, other than to stand out for an opportunity someplace else? That's not the way to have your organization viewed.

I agree. But he also has done right by some guys. I know he paid for Pierre Jackson's rehab after he tore his acl and was waived by the sixers. His annual manipulation of the salary cap has to be frustrating to his players as well. The Sixers are always well below the set point of the salary cap where they have to pay money out to their current players to get that point and Hinkie makes a deadline deal to bump his cap number up so that he doesn't have to pay out extra money to his players while only owning the player he traded for a fraction of his actual cap number.
I don't think it works out for him. He has been given an incredibly long amount of time to build a winner without building one. He has accumulated assets but he has not transitioned them to a winning program, he instead transitions them to more assets. Sixers fans that I know don't watch a lot anymore. At some point you have to build a team. He ended up having to waive some of the second round assets he accumulated this past training camp.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
mreinman
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11/17/2015  7:11 PM
crzymdups wrote:I think Okafor and Nerlens Noel is the beginning of an interesting foundation.

If they strike gold in the lotto this year, they could have three very good young players. Or possibly four if they get that Lakers pick, too.

That said, I think his overall strategy has included a lot of dumb moves. And I think intentionally spending top three picks on injured guys is a foolhardy move.

I think you have to give him through the draft this year and see what their team looks like.

Don't forget Saric.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Hinkie's Sixers: Bad Plan, Bad Execution, or both?

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