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Why Calling Carmelo Anthony Overrated Is Pretty Overrated
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knicks1248
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9/22/2015  1:29 PM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2570352-why-calling-carmelo-anthony-overrated-is-pretty-overrated

Why Calling Carmelo Anthony Overrated Is Pretty Overrated
By Dan Favale , Featured Columnist Sep 22, 2015

Carmelo Anthony is not overrated.

Somewhere along the line, as heightened attacks on his individual status became an NBA pastime, perception of the New York Knicks superstar started to move in the wrong direction. And while these routine critiques have become matter-of-fact, they're mostly mistaken.

And yet they live on, from season to season, feeding off an unending supply of detractive inspiration. Whether it's Anthony play style, something he or someone else said, an injury or his contract, there's always enough fodder to perpetuate this notion that he's overrated.

Most recently, Colin Cowherd of Fox Sports' The Herd saw fit to take this unremitting discussion one step further:


For such a claim to fall under the radar, as this one did, says a lot.

Sports radio's hopes of inciting shock can be counterproductive. The sheer volume of its attempts lead to generally harmless, sometimes dismissive interpretations of featured opinions. But in this case, there's also the possibility that Anthony's pumped-up standing is so accepted that there is no need to reaffirm a majority assumption.

In some ways, though, that's understandable. Anthony hasn't exactly earned the unconditional benefit of the doubt.

Almost everything Anthony does is polarizing and (rightly) subject to deeper dissection. He forced a trade to the Knicks in 2011 rather than wait to sign with them in free agency—a move no doubt shaped by the impending lockout, but one that nevertheless cost New York assets it could have placed around Anthony or used as bait in a future blockbuster for, say, Chris Paul.

Last summer, as an unrestricted free agent, Anthony eschewed championship-ready opportunities, electing instead to sign a near-max deal with the rebuilding Knicks. For a player fast approaching his twilight who was presumably looking to win, that decision sent mixed signals at best.

When it became clear midway through last season that a left knee injury required extensive rehabilitation, Anthony didn't immediately shut it down. He played on, delaying surgery so that he could participate in the All-Star Game, a glorified exhibition contest that meant nothing to what was, at the time, a 10-win Knicks team.

The list goes on. Anthony is still viewed as a ball-stopper. His teams are 23-43 in the postseason. He appeared obsessed with off-court fame in an article Elis Saslow penned for ESPN The Magazine last November.

Even the way he randomly pops up on social media to defend himself against critics has an unflattering feel to it. A fan recently asked the question "Is Carmelo Anthony still an elite player?" on Instagram, and Anthony, who is 31 years old and coming off major knee surgery, responded with, "That may be the dumbest question ever asked."

To make matters easier for his faultfinders, Anthony's leadership methods, or lack thereof, are seldom praised. Where the transitioning Knicks need an outspoken commander, he is painted as an introvert.

"Melo is more of an 'I'll show you' [leader]," J.R. Smith would say after being traded from the Knicks to the Cleveland Cavaliers, via NBA writer Ethan Skolnick, "as opposed to Bron is more of an 'I'll tell you, then I'll show you."

“He’s not that guy,” his former teammate, Chauncey Billups, told The Knicks Blog with Anthony Donahue in April (via ESPN.com's Ian Begley). “Melo’s a good friend of mine, one of the best players I ever played with, but he’s not the guy who’s going to stand up in the locker room and give this rah-rah speech and get the team to rally. That’s not who he is."

Therein lies the problem with Anthony—or rather, with those who argue that he's grossly overvalued.

Anthony is not LeBron James. He is not Chris Paul. He is not Kevin Durant. We know this. We have known this.

Flawed, But Elite


Anyone who judges Anthony against these preferred leaders and perennial MVP candidates is getting it all wrong by getting him all wrong. He has been in the league for 12 years, and after all that time, imperfect as he may be, it's unfair to demand that he become someone he's clearly not.

This, for the record, is not to be confused with letting Anthony off the hook. Longstanding imperfection is not a stock-saving defense. And if he hadn't made an effort to evolve over the past few years, this wouldn't even be worth mentioning.

But he has tried to change, and he has altered his play style, even if reluctantly.

Re-signing with the Knicks last summer meant Anthony would have to function without the ball more, something for which he isn't known. Elements of the triangle offense, as endorsed by team president Phil Jackson and head coach Derek Fisher, will forever remain part of New York's attack, and they'll demand additional passing.

Although the Knicks offense was largely lifeless last season, Anthony did show he can operate within a passing-packed system. The team ranked in the top 10 of assist percentage, and Anthony averaged more passes per minute in 2014-15 than he did in 2013-14.

That part of his game has always fallen by the wayside. Anthony has been known to fall in love with isolations, but he has never been a bad passer.

Over the last 10 years, Anthony's assist percentages have typically outpaced the average for all players to qualify for the minutes-per-game leaderboard:


Melo's AST% vs. League Average | Create infographics
There's something specifically to be said about the effects of Anthony's ball movement. His Knicks teammates shot nearly 51 percent (Anthony's assists/Anthony's assist opportunities) off his passes last season, up from the 42.8 percent New York shot overall.

Anthony is at the height of his drive-and-kick superpowers, which should allow his assist totals to climb with time and surrounding talent. He still sucks in two defenders when operating from either block and is smart enough nowadays to fling a pass toward the open shooter, who, depending on the defensive scheme, is usually located just above the break:

Defenses send even more help at Anthony when he's on the move. He's able to slip past bodies and outstretched arms when working off the slightest screens, and upon reaching the paint, two, three and four players converge to stop him.

At that point, all Anthony needs to do is roll the dice on one of his many open shooters:

Those are passes he will make, many of them coming within the flow of the offense, some of them admittedly coming after he burns time off the shot clock in isolation. But he will still make them.

Certain sets will even see Anthony act as one of the orbiting shooters. He has gradually learned to play off the rock more, not only making him a more dangerous scorer but ensuring he can effectively complement other ball-dominant stars, should the Knicks ever hit it big in free agency:


Melo's Assisted and Unassisted Field Goals Since Joining NYK | Create infographics
Forty-five percent of Anthony's made baskets came off assists last season, his highest mark since joining New York for 27 games in 2010-11. And it came while playing for the worst Knicks team ever, albeit over a mildly warped sample size.

Nevertheless, Anthony's mixed bag of offensive weapons has never been more expansive, which is saying something. He ranks 14th in offensive win shares since entering the league (11th among active players). He is one of only 35 players in league history to maintain an offensive box plus/minus of at least 2.5 through 30,000 minutes of action.

Last season's Knicks, the team that won just 17 games and fielded a bottom-two offense, scored at the rate of a top-10 point-piling machine when Anthony was in the game. That's absurd, and it's not an impact any ol' player can have. Anthony is special in that way.

As Joe Flynn wrote for Posting and Toasting:

The whole "does Melo make his teammates better" argument, which will continue to rage on for the rest of eternity, misses the point. What he does is lessen the burden on his other teammates. Scoring enough points against NBA defenses is incredibly difficult. A healthy, effective Carmelo Anthony mitigates much of that difficulty -- he gets tons of buckets at a fairly efficient rate, with minimal help from others. He throws the defense out of whack, which leads to open shots for others. All that he needs to build an above-average NBA offense is a group of guys who hit open shots, know where to stand and cut, and who aren't actively tripping over their own d***s for 48 minutes.

The ability to carry an offense toward adequacy or sometimes elitism, irrespective of its dead weight, does not make Anthony the ideal superstar. But it is an important context.

A Complicated Reputation


So too is the fact that Anthony's contract, while still expensive, will look like a stronger investment next summer. He will go from representing 36.6 percent of the Knicks' cap space in 2015-16 to taking up just 29.5 percent or less in 2016-17. And that's additional wiggle room New York can leverage against roster improvements.

Most importantly, for all the deserved leadership flack Anthony generates, he is making a concerted effort to improve.

Despite initial reports that declared he was unhappy with the Knicks' drafting a long-term project like Kristaps Porzingis, Anthony has taken the rookie under his wing well ahead of training camp and the NBA's preseason, according to ESPN.com's Ian Begley.

And yet, no matter the change, the "overrated" stance will live on, because Anthony isn't James. He isn't Durant. He isn't Paul. He isn't someone who has shown he can be the lone star on a title contender.

Even though we must nod to the fact that Anthony entered the league around the same time as those guys, with stronger college credentials than many of them, it doesn't justify holding him to an identical scale. They're all different. Anthony has wedged his way into their bubble as an Olympics teammate, as an off-court friend and as a member of the All-Star Brat Pack, but he is not the same.

Once upon a time, when it wasn't yet known Anthony was different, perhaps he was overrated. And the Knicks, as currently constructed, in need of a steadying guide, pose a test he has never quite passed. But the assaults on his superstardom are railing against an outdated enemy.

Antony is not overrated. He's just someone still being targeted for all that he's not.

Stats courtesy of Basketball-Reference.com and NBA.com unless otherwise cited. Salary information via Basketball Insiders.

Dan Favale covers the NBA for Bleacher Report. Follow him on Twitter, @danfavale.

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holfresh
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9/22/2015  1:38 PM
I'm am thoroughly amazed at Melo's following/discussions..Amazed..ESPN this summer reported Melo was their number one search topic one day this year...Forget that every thread here almost certainly turns in a Melo discussion...
ChuckBuck
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9/22/2015  1:48 PM
Who overrates him though? Most logical basketball fans see him for what he is.

Good offensive player though not efficient, average rebounder, limited playmaking ability for others, and mediocre to average defender. No leadership skills at all, but also not a total team cancer at the same time. He is what he is to this point entering his 13th year in the league.

http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2015/9/2/9248157/carmelo-anthony-ranks-15th-on-sports-illustrateds-top-100-list

15th best player overall in the NBA is about right. Not quite elite, not quite rat poop. No one overrates him really, just the homers that ball wash him.

nixluva
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9/22/2015  2:30 PM
I actually hope Melo can find success in NY. I have had my issues with him in the past but it's clear to me that the problems with this team have little to do with Melo and his flaws. This team has failed because of the other factors and not because of Melo. I believe Phil is looking to try and put a functional team around Melo which in the past has been enough to win 50 games and get to the playoffs. The key components are having a solid PG, SG and Big Man around Melo. When the production is high enough from those positions Melo's teams have been more successful.

2012-13 Knicks 54-28  Eastern Conference Semis
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 67 67 37.0 28.7 2.0 4.9 6.9 2.6 0.78 0.48 2.6 3.1 1.0 24.8
J.R. Smith, SG 80 0 33.5 18.1 0.8 4.5 5.3 2.7 1.25 0.30 1.7 2.8 1.6 17.7
Raymond Felton, PG 68 68 34.0 13.9 0.8 2.1 2.9 5.5 1.38 0.21 2.3 1.9 2.4 15.2
Tyson Chandler, C 66 66 32.8 10.4 4.1 6.6 10.7 0.9 0.64 1.14 1.3 2.8 0.7 18.9

2008-09 Nuggets 54-28 Western Conference Finals
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 66 66 34.5 22.8 1.6 5.2 6.8 3.4 1.14 0.36 3.0 3.0 1.1 19.1
Chauncey Billups, PG 77 77 35.3 17.9 0.4 2.6 3.0 6.4 1.17 0.22 2.2 2.1 2.8 18.9
J.R. Smith, SG 81 18 27.7 15.2 0.5 3.1 3.7 2.8 0.96 0.17 1.9 2.3 1.5 16.8
Nene Hilario, PF 77 76 32.6 14.6 2.4 5.4 7.8 1.4 1.23 1.31 1.9 3.6 0.7 18.8

2007-08 Nuggets 50-32 Western Conference 1st Round
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Allen Iverson, SG 82 82 41.8 26.4 0.6 2.4 3.0 7.1 1.95 0.15 3.0 1.3 2.4 21.1
Carmelo Anthony, SF 77 77 36.4 25.7 2.3 5.1 7.4 3.4 1.27 0.51 3.3 3.3 1.0 21.3
Kenyon Martin, PF 71 71 30.4 12.4 1.5 5.0 6.5 1.3 1.24 1.20 1.3 3.3 1.0 14.8
J.R. Smith, SG 74 0 19.2 12.3 0.6 1.5 2.1 1.7 0.84 0.16 1.5 1.9 1.1 18.3

knickscity
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9/22/2015  6:26 PM
Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.
nixluva
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9/22/2015  7:51 PM
knickscity wrote:Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.

Only time he's been paired up with other Elite players. His teams haven't exactly been juggernauts. Unless you perhaps feel one of his team was a pre season pick to win a title and he just F'd up.

CrushAlot
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9/22/2015  8:02 PM
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.

Only time he's been paired up with other Elite players. His teams haven't exactly been juggernauts. Unless you perhaps feel one of his team was a pre season pick to win a title and he just F'd up.


He won at Syracuse and did go to the western conference finals. He hasn't had a lot of talent around him in his career. He has logged more minutes with undrafted free agents then any guy in the league that I can think of.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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9/22/2015  8:43 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.

Only time he's been paired up with other Elite players. His teams haven't exactly been juggernauts. Unless you perhaps feel one of his team was a pre season pick to win a title and he just F'd up.


He won at Syracuse and did go to the western conference finals. He hasn't had a lot of talent around him in his career. He has logged more minutes with undrafted free agents then any guy in the league that I can think of.

I'm convinced that Melo can win here in NY with this team. The history I posted above suggests that putting Melo with solid NBA level players will usually be enough to win games. Seems that the formula has been the top 4 players collective PER being over 73. IMO that is entirely possible that they could come close to that this year. Melo, RoLo, Afflalo are each capable of above 15.0 PER. We would need at least one or 2 more players to come close to a 15.0 PER. Clearly the more players you have with above league avg production it bodes well for your teams success. You've gotta have at least 4 above avg Production players getting big minutes in order to be one of the better teams. When Melo has had that level of help at the least he's been able to win. Obviously we want to have more than just 4 guys with above avg production in order to be a contender.

2012-13 Knicks 54-28  Eastern Conference Semis
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 67 67 37.0 28.7 2.0 4.9 6.9 2.6 0.78 0.48 2.6 3.1 1.0 24.8
J.R. Smith, SG 80 0 33.5 18.1 0.8 4.5 5.3 2.7 1.25 0.30 1.7 2.8 1.6 17.7
Raymond Felton, PG 68 68 34.0 13.9 0.8 2.1 2.9 5.5 1.38 0.21 2.3 1.9 2.4 15.2
Tyson Chandler, C 66 66 32.8 10.4 4.1 6.6 10.7 0.9 0.64 1.14 1.3 2.8 0.7 18.9 = 76.6

2008-09 Nuggets 54-28 Western Conference Finals
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 66 66 34.5 22.8 1.6 5.2 6.8 3.4 1.14 0.36 3.0 3.0 1.1 19.1
Chauncey Billups, PG 77 77 35.3 17.9 0.4 2.6 3.0 6.4 1.17 0.22 2.2 2.1 2.8 18.9
J.R. Smith, SG 81 18 27.7 15.2 0.5 3.1 3.7 2.8 0.96 0.17 1.9 2.3 1.5 16.8
Nene Hilario, PF 77 76 32.6 14.6 2.4 5.4 7.8 1.4 1.23 1.31 1.9 3.6 0.7 18.8 = 73.6

2007-08 Nuggets 50-32 Western Conference 1st Round
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Allen Iverson, SG 82 82 41.8 26.4 0.6 2.4 3.0 7.1 1.95 0.15 3.0 1.3 2.4 21.1
Carmelo Anthony, SF 77 77 36.4 25.7 2.3 5.1 7.4 3.4 1.27 0.51 3.3 3.3 1.0 21.3
Kenyon Martin, PF 71 71 30.4 12.4 1.5 5.0 6.5 1.3 1.24 1.20 1.3 3.3 1.0 14.8
J.R. Smith, SG 74 0 19.2 12.3 0.6 1.5 2.1 1.7 0.84 0.16 1.5 1.9 1.1 18.3 = 75.5

arkrud
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9/22/2015  11:03 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.

Only time he's been paired up with other Elite players. His teams haven't exactly been juggernauts. Unless you perhaps feel one of his team was a pre season pick to win a title and he just F'd up.


He won at Syracuse and did go to the western conference finals. He hasn't had a lot of talent around him in his career. He has logged more minutes with undrafted free agents then any guy in the league that I can think of.

I'm convinced that Melo can win here in NY with this team. The history I posted above suggests that putting Melo with solid NBA level players will usually be enough to win games. Seems that the formula has been the top 4 players collective PER being over 73. IMO that is entirely possible that they could come close to that this year. Melo, RoLo, Afflalo are each capable of above 15.0 PER. We would need at least one or 2 more players to come close to a 15.0 PER. Clearly the more players you have with above league avg production it bodes well for your teams success. You've gotta have at least 4 above avg Production players getting big minutes in order to be one of the better teams. When Melo has had that level of help at the least he's been able to win. Obviously we want to have more than just 4 guys with above avg production in order to be a contender.

2012-13 Knicks 54-28  Eastern Conference Semis
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 67 67 37.0 28.7 2.0 4.9 6.9 2.6 0.78 0.48 2.6 3.1 1.0 24.8
J.R. Smith, SG 80 0 33.5 18.1 0.8 4.5 5.3 2.7 1.25 0.30 1.7 2.8 1.6 17.7
Raymond Felton, PG 68 68 34.0 13.9 0.8 2.1 2.9 5.5 1.38 0.21 2.3 1.9 2.4 15.2
Tyson Chandler, C 66 66 32.8 10.4 4.1 6.6 10.7 0.9 0.64 1.14 1.3 2.8 0.7 18.9 = 76.6

2008-09 Nuggets 54-28 Western Conference Finals
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 66 66 34.5 22.8 1.6 5.2 6.8 3.4 1.14 0.36 3.0 3.0 1.1 19.1
Chauncey Billups, PG 77 77 35.3 17.9 0.4 2.6 3.0 6.4 1.17 0.22 2.2 2.1 2.8 18.9
J.R. Smith, SG 81 18 27.7 15.2 0.5 3.1 3.7 2.8 0.96 0.17 1.9 2.3 1.5 16.8
Nene Hilario, PF 77 76 32.6 14.6 2.4 5.4 7.8 1.4 1.23 1.31 1.9 3.6 0.7 18.8 = 73.6

2007-08 Nuggets 50-32 Western Conference 1st Round
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Allen Iverson, SG 82 82 41.8 26.4 0.6 2.4 3.0 7.1 1.95 0.15 3.0 1.3 2.4 21.1
Carmelo Anthony, SF 77 77 36.4 25.7 2.3 5.1 7.4 3.4 1.27 0.51 3.3 3.3 1.0 21.3
Kenyon Martin, PF 71 71 30.4 12.4 1.5 5.0 6.5 1.3 1.24 1.20 1.3 3.3 1.0 14.8
J.R. Smith, SG 74 0 19.2 12.3 0.6 1.5 2.1 1.7 0.84 0.16 1.5 1.9 1.1 18.3 = 75.5

BBal is about team not about one player.
Even the game greats need to get together to win.
When Melo had real leaders and warriors on his team he was part of the success.
When he had non of that he was a part of the failure.
And every time he put himself in the position to fail himself by following his priorities - brand, stats, star attention, celeb status, and to get as much $$$ as he can.
I think the winning share he get is exactly what he deserved.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
GustavBahler
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9/23/2015  12:39 AM
http://www.designntrend.com/articles/61314/20150922/knicks-porzingis-praises-carmelo-anthony-for-training-him.htm

Knicks' Porzingis Praises Carmelo Anthony For Training Him: 'Playing One-On-One A Lot'


Cant cut and paste, but its good to know they're getting on the same page, and glad Melo is trying to help Porzingis get ready for the NBA.

StarksEwing1
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9/23/2015  7:26 AM
ChuckBuck wrote:Who overrates him though? Most logical basketball fans see him for what he is.

Good offensive player though not efficient, average rebounder, limited playmaking ability for others, and mediocre to average defender. No leadership skills at all, but also not a total team cancer at the same time. He is what he is to this point entering his 13th year in the league.

http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2015/9/2/9248157/carmelo-anthony-ranks-15th-on-sports-illustrateds-top-100-list

15th best player overall in the NBA is about right. Not quite elite, not quite rat poop. No one overrates him really, just the homers that ball wash him.

Exactly. He definetly isnt overrated IF you accept him for what he is. If you are looking at his main strength which is scoring then he is one of the best in the league
dk7th
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9/23/2015  8:45 AM
here are the holes-- huge holes-- in the argument:

1) the author looks at anthiny's assist percentages and says they outpace the league's averages. what the author neglects to mention is that anthiny's usage rate is often double his assist rate percentage (far higher than the players he is all-too-often compared with), which pretty much negates his point, even as the author uses this sleight of hand methodology. nice try but strike one, mr. dan of belcher report.

2) more egregious, however, is the canard that "he is one of only 35 players in league history to maintain an offensive box plus/minus of at least 2.5 through 30,000 minutes of action." operative phrase here is "offensive." uhhh basketball is a game played on two ends of a court, and the author neglects to mention what anthiny's defensive box plus-minus is for his career: minus 1.2 (-1.2). this means he is closer to a zero-sum player than what the author wants to lead the reader to believe. bonus point: during the vaunted knicks playoff run under woodson, melo's offensive box plus-minus was 1.2 and his defensive box plus-minus was a whopping -2.9, which means he was a negative-sum player in the playoffs. if he were worth a damn, he would elevate his game in the playoffs, not shrink and disappear.

3) the author then quotes some gobblydygook: "The whole "does Melo make his teammates better?" argument, which will continue to rage on for the rest of eternity, misses the point. What he does is lessen the burden on his other teammates." come on now, dan-- it's a team sport and your argument here is an attempt to make a isolation scorer's vices into something of a virtue. that just doesn't fly.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
gunsnewing
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9/23/2015  9:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/23/2015  9:57 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.

Only time he's been paired up with other Elite players. His teams haven't exactly been juggernauts. Unless you perhaps feel one of his team was a pre season pick to win a title and he just F'd up.


He won at Syracuse and did go to the western conference finals. He hasn't had a lot of talent around him in his career. He has logged more minutes with undrafted free agents then any guy in the league that I can think of.

Mateen Cleaves won at Michigan St

ChuckBuck
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9/23/2015  10:20 AM
gunsnewing wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.

Only time he's been paired up with other Elite players. His teams haven't exactly been juggernauts. Unless you perhaps feel one of his team was a pre season pick to win a title and he just F'd up.


He won at Syracuse and did go to the western conference finals. He hasn't had a lot of talent around him in his career. He has logged more minutes with undrafted free agents then any guy in the league that I can think of.

Mateen Cleaves won at Michigan St

Darko Milicic won an NBA title before Melo too. Allen Iverson went to the NBA Finals with absolute dog shyt around him.

It's bad when the ball washers have to go deep into the well to defend his accomplishments or lack thereof.

Is Melo a hall of famer? Probably. First ballot? We'll see these next couple of seasons. All time great? Nope. All time great Knick? Nope. Not even in the same zip code as Frazier or Ewing.

nixluva
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9/23/2015  11:28 AM
arkrud wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knickscity wrote:Melo has only been successful with the Dream Team.

Only time he's been paired up with other Elite players. His teams haven't exactly been juggernauts. Unless you perhaps feel one of his team was a pre season pick to win a title and he just F'd up.


He won at Syracuse and did go to the western conference finals. He hasn't had a lot of talent around him in his career. He has logged more minutes with undrafted free agents then any guy in the league that I can think of.

I'm convinced that Melo can win here in NY with this team. The history I posted above suggests that putting Melo with solid NBA level players will usually be enough to win games. Seems that the formula has been the top 4 players collective PER being over 73. IMO that is entirely possible that they could come close to that this year. Melo, RoLo, Afflalo are each capable of above 15.0 PER. We would need at least one or 2 more players to come close to a 15.0 PER. Clearly the more players you have with above league avg production it bodes well for your teams success. You've gotta have at least 4 above avg Production players getting big minutes in order to be one of the better teams. When Melo has had that level of help at the least he's been able to win. Obviously we want to have more than just 4 guys with above avg production in order to be a contender.

2012-13 Knicks 54-28  Eastern Conference Semis
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 67 67 37.0 28.7 2.0 4.9 6.9 2.6 0.78 0.48 2.6 3.1 1.0 24.8
J.R. Smith, SG 80 0 33.5 18.1 0.8 4.5 5.3 2.7 1.25 0.30 1.7 2.8 1.6 17.7
Raymond Felton, PG 68 68 34.0 13.9 0.8 2.1 2.9 5.5 1.38 0.21 2.3 1.9 2.4 15.2
Tyson Chandler, C 66 66 32.8 10.4 4.1 6.6 10.7 0.9 0.64 1.14 1.3 2.8 0.7 18.9 = 76.6

2008-09 Nuggets 54-28 Western Conference Finals
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Carmelo Anthony, SF 66 66 34.5 22.8 1.6 5.2 6.8 3.4 1.14 0.36 3.0 3.0 1.1 19.1
Chauncey Billups, PG 77 77 35.3 17.9 0.4 2.6 3.0 6.4 1.17 0.22 2.2 2.1 2.8 18.9
J.R. Smith, SG 81 18 27.7 15.2 0.5 3.1 3.7 2.8 0.96 0.17 1.9 2.3 1.5 16.8
Nene Hilario, PF 77 76 32.6 14.6 2.4 5.4 7.8 1.4 1.23 1.31 1.9 3.6 0.7 18.8 = 73.6

2007-08 Nuggets 50-32 Western Conference 1st Round
PLAYER GP GS MIN PPG OFFR DEFR RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FPG A/TO PER
Allen Iverson, SG 82 82 41.8 26.4 0.6 2.4 3.0 7.1 1.95 0.15 3.0 1.3 2.4 21.1
Carmelo Anthony, SF 77 77 36.4 25.7 2.3 5.1 7.4 3.4 1.27 0.51 3.3 3.3 1.0 21.3
Kenyon Martin, PF 71 71 30.4 12.4 1.5 5.0 6.5 1.3 1.24 1.20 1.3 3.3 1.0 14.8
J.R. Smith, SG 74 0 19.2 12.3 0.6 1.5 2.1 1.7 0.84 0.16 1.5 1.9 1.1 18.3 = 75.5

BBal is about team not about one player.
Even the game greats need to get together to win.
When Melo had real leaders and warriors on his team he was part of the success.
When he had non of that he was a part of the failure.
And every time he put himself in the position to fail himself by following his priorities - brand, stats, star attention, celeb status, and to get as much $$$ as he can.
I think the winning share he get is exactly what he deserved.

My interest is in how he was most successful in the past and what it seems Phil is trying to do with the rest of the roster around him. As I posted above. Success seems to be less about what Melo does by himself as much as it is about how the rest of the team is able to perform around him. Put good players around him and he's able to win games. As this roster is built up and players develop we will win games. That's really all I care about when it comes to Melo. Nothing about him really is detrimental to winning when he has good players around him. It's ALWAYS been about TEAM more than the rare Elite individual. As flawed as Melo is, if we build a great team we will have a chance to win a Title.

CrushAlot
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9/23/2015  8:50 PM

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
dk7th
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9/23/2015  8:58 PM
chris herring is apparently rather busy gargling melo's nuts.
knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
CrushAlot
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9/23/2015  9:23 PM
dk7th wrote:chris herring is apparently rather busy gargling melo's nuts.

He got it from espn.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
dk7th
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9/23/2015  9:32 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:chris herring is apparently rather busy gargling melo's nuts.

He got it from espn.

you quote it you own it

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
WaltLongmire
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9/23/2015  9:47 PM
CrushAlot wrote:

Trying to be clever...or is he just an idiot?...neither played a minute in the NBA last year.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
Why Calling Carmelo Anthony Overrated Is Pretty Overrated

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