The Knicks start off the season with Lopez, O'Quinn, Melo, Afflalo, and Calderon as the starters.

Our two rookies, Kris and Grant, are the first to come off the bench to replace O'Quinn and Calderon, thus getting playing time with three-fifths of the starting lineup. The timing of the substitution should become earlier and earlier through the first 30 games, with the goal of the rookies eventually becoming starters by the end of the season-- just so long as the playoffs are still a possibility. Either way, the rookies should not be played more than 24 minutes a game by the end of the season.

That accounts for seven players in a system-based offense and a philosophy that stresses defense. A deep and effective bench is crucial, just so the starters are never averaging more than 32 minutes a game-- especially Calderon and Melo, which is why acquiring Grant and Kris was a good move. Therefore, Fisher must identify those three other Knick players who are better than average defenders and who have grasped the Triangle sufficiently.

My vote is Seraphin for Lopez, Galloway for Afflalo, and Williams, although if Williams doesn't cut it, Lance Thomas should be given minutes.

Again-- although it would be a real accomplishment to reach the playoffs this season, the narrative should have a greater arc than just this season, ie the arc should extend over this season and the following season, or 184 games. In that time the team will have an opportunity to gel into something that is viable for several seasons beyond the next two, in which it should be expected that the Knicks are a top 6 team in the league. In order to get there, the Knicks from top to bottom should be preaching patience and stick-to-it-iveness.

It would be a mistake to think "playoffs this season or bust" or "all or nothing." Jackson is trying to nurture a sapling right now. Any free agent worth signing-- and make no mistake it's slim pickings as it is http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2016/-- should be able to recognize that the Knicks are developing something and are showing signs of improvement. At any rate, whoever may be available should not be older than 27-28 by the start of the 2016-2017 season.

I don't think the Knicks are taking a playoffs or bust tack although I think they would be disappointed if they didn't make it. This group seems to already be more unified than last years group. It seems like they've spent a lot more time together. This makes sense when you think of the players we had last year compared to this year. This group all came about the same time from the draft to Free Agency which created a "Summer 2015 Class". Many of them are in a closer age range as well. It's just a different dynamic and I think it will help with the overall team spirit and desire to win as a group.

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

i don't see where you come to this conclusion. the warriors just won a title and they were not an elite team two seasons ago. the landscape is changing in the nba. last season the final four was atlanta, cleveland, houston, and golden state. memphis clippers and spurs are up there somewhere. other than the spurs and lebron, who is the only genuine, proven franchise player, the nba is in flux.

hence there is no reason to conclude that the knicks, if they remain patient and build from within, cannot become a top 6 team three seasons from now. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 will be developmental seasons.

have a look at the list of summer 2017 free agents... it's eye-opening: http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2017/

Sangfroid wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

Gallo and Wilson went so that we could move towards our answer to Miami's "Big Three". Lee went so that we could make room for LBJ. When he didn't come, we got Amar'e. This time, it feels different. We've got two first rounders to work in, and a second rounder for next season. Hopefully, with the new culture that we are portraying, the new talent will get the opportunity to blossom,thereby becoming a part of our new foundation.

With regard to what knicks1248 wrote, we have an experienced Coach and staff at this point. IMO experienced enough to lead a quality team to wins. The roster is more important than the coach and always has been. The kids we have will be able to develop at their own pace because we do actually have some vets who can carry the bulk of the load. I don't see this team looking to trade away the kids we develop. I think there's a stronger possibility that our prospects will be developed as the core of the team going forward and sticking with them. In any event it's gonna take a few seasons before we'd even be considering trading such young prospects. We need to just enjoy the ride.

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

i don't see where you come to this conclusion. the warriors just won a title and they were not an elite team two seasons ago. the landscape is changing in the nba. last season the final four was atlanta, cleveland, houston, and golden state. memphis clippers and spurs are up there somewhere. other than the spurs and lebron, who is the only genuine, proven franchise player, the nba is in flux.

hence there is no reason to conclude that the knicks, if they remain patient and build from within, cannot become a top 6 team three seasons from now. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 will be developmental seasons.

have a look at the list of summer 2017 free agents... it's eye-opening: http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2017/

except for golden state, these teams were made up of trades, houston hasn't develop anyone since yao ming. Again, it was in the 90's when teams would develop their drafts and have patients. With the way things are now, your toast after 2 season of no playoffs.

Yes phil is trying to set a foundation of patients and trust, but how much trust did he have in THJ, or Shump, if it was all about a learning curb and build confidence and gelling.

So if for whatever reason grant is only a marginal upgrade over calderon, or KP is too much of a project, how patient will you be.

Im telling you now, the only way these players stay together for more than a season and a half, is if we make the playoffs. If someone comes to phil with a offer for a marquee player( paul george, CP3, ect) I can bet my life that KP or grant is gone.

I agree fully, and to be honest if the players arent developing what exactly are we keeping them for? Just because they are young? If our youngins look to be mediocre at best in two-three years and a team offers a solid player or picks, we should jump on that.

Look around the league, unless you have a star type, the rest are expendable. Ask the Spurs should they have kept George Hill. Kawhi is a star type. Should Miami have kept Beasley and tell that trio "nah, we cant do that here, we have to develop youth? Titles are hard to get, but a competing roster actually isnt. Perhaps it never comes down to this and our guys pan out. If so, awesome for fans.

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

i don't see where you come to this conclusion. the warriors just won a title and they were not an elite team two seasons ago. the landscape is changing in the nba. last season the final four was atlanta, cleveland, houston, and golden state. memphis clippers and spurs are up there somewhere. other than the spurs and lebron, who is the only genuine, proven franchise player, the nba is in flux.

hence there is no reason to conclude that the knicks, if they remain patient and build from within, cannot become a top 6 team three seasons from now. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 will be developmental seasons.

have a look at the list of summer 2017 free agents... it's eye-opening: http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2017/

except for golden state, these teams were made up of trades, houston hasn't develop anyone since yao ming. Again, it was in the 90's when teams would develop their drafts and have patients. With the way things are now, your toast after 2 season of no playoffs.

Yes phil is trying to set a foundation of patients and trust, but how much trust did he have in THJ, or Shump, if it was all about a learning curb and build confidence and gelling.

So if for whatever reason grant is only a marginal upgrade over calderon, or KP is too much of a project, how patient will you be.

Im telling you now, the only way these players stay together for more than a season and a half, is if we make the playoffs. If someone comes to phil with a offer for a marquee player( paul george, CP3, ect) I can bet my life that KP or grant is gone.

I believe Phil would be very careful about trading KP. A trade for Paul George feels like the McDyess trade all over again. I believe he would trade for CP3 if Phil thought that the team now would be instant contenders, serious contenders. Not just a good showing. Paul is 30, he's been pretty healthy for the last few years, but that probably is going to change.

The Knicks have the highest pick since Ewing, KP looks like he could be something special. I want a very special player coming back in return who can give us more than one or two good seasons. Otherwise I would rather take my chances with KP, Grant, and some kind of long term plan.

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

i don't see where you come to this conclusion. the warriors just won a title and they were not an elite team two seasons ago. the landscape is changing in the nba. last season the final four was atlanta, cleveland, houston, and golden state. memphis clippers and spurs are up there somewhere. other than the spurs and lebron, who is the only genuine, proven franchise player, the nba is in flux.

hence there is no reason to conclude that the knicks, if they remain patient and build from within, cannot become a top 6 team three seasons from now. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 will be developmental seasons.

have a look at the list of summer 2017 free agents... it's eye-opening: http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2017/

except for golden state, these teams were made up of trades, houston hasn't develop anyone since yao ming. Again, it was in the 90's when teams would develop their drafts and have patients. With the way things are now, your toast after 2 season of no playoffs.

Yes phil is trying to set a foundation of patients and trust, but how much trust did he have in THJ, or Shump, if it was all about a learning curb and build confidence and gelling.

So if for whatever reason grant is only a marginal upgrade over calderon, or KP is too much of a project, how patient will you be.

Im telling you now, the only way these players stay together for more than a season and a half, is if we make the playoffs. If someone comes to phil with a offer for a marquee player( paul george, CP3, ect) I can bet my life that KP or grant is gone.

I believe Phil would be very careful about trading KP. A trade for Paul George feels like the McDyess trade all over again. I believe he would trade for CP3 if Phil thought that the team now would be instant contenders, serious contenders. Not just a good showing. Paul is 30, he's been pretty healthy for the last few years, but that probably is going to change.

The Knicks have the highest pick since Ewing, KP looks like he could be something special. I want a very special player coming back in return who can give us more than one or two good seasons. Otherwise I would rather take my chances with KP, Grant, and some kind of long term plan.

the operative question for me is if knicks1248 would feel the same had we drafted any one of the three players ahead of porzingis?

Nope! Cuz it's all about the sexy names in NY. You see it with SAS and the media in general and some fans are also stuck on that kind of thinking. It's like they can't see that our picks have just as much potential.

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

i don't see where you come to this conclusion. the warriors just won a title and they were not an elite team two seasons ago. the landscape is changing in the nba. last season the final four was atlanta, cleveland, houston, and golden state. memphis clippers and spurs are up there somewhere. other than the spurs and lebron, who is the only genuine, proven franchise player, the nba is in flux.

hence there is no reason to conclude that the knicks, if they remain patient and build from within, cannot become a top 6 team three seasons from now. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 will be developmental seasons.

have a look at the list of summer 2017 free agents... it's eye-opening: http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2017/

except for golden state, these teams were made up of trades, houston hasn't develop anyone since yao ming. Again, it was in the 90's when teams would develop their drafts and have patients. With the way things are now, your toast after 2 season of no playoffs.

Yes phil is trying to set a foundation of patients and trust, but how much trust did he have in THJ, or Shump, if it was all about a learning curb and build confidence and gelling.

So if for whatever reason grant is only a marginal upgrade over calderon, or KP is too much of a project, how patient will you be.

Im telling you now, the only way these players stay together for more than a season and a half, is if we make the playoffs. If someone comes to phil with a offer for a marquee player( paul george, CP3, ect) I can bet my life that KP or grant is gone.

I believe Phil would be very careful about trading KP. A trade for Paul George feels like the McDyess trade all over again. I believe he would trade for CP3 if Phil thought that the team now would be instant contenders, serious contenders. Not just a good showing. Paul is 30, he's been pretty healthy for the last few years, but that probably is going to change.

The Knicks have the highest pick since Ewing, KP looks like he could be something special. I want a very special player coming back in return who can give us more than one or two good seasons. Otherwise I would rather take my chances with KP, Grant, and some kind of long term plan.

the operative question for me is if knicks1248 would feel the same had we drafted any one of the three players ahead of porzingis?

I would trade anyone who will make my team instantly better/contender, that's the bottom line.

It's point less having melo on the knicks without a 2nd scorer and a real vocal leader, and that goes for JORDAN, KOBE, WADE, SHAQ. Those guys by themselves will win you a some games and then breakdown form the overload.

I don't want seem to demanding of the rooks, but i'm expecting "1st all team rookie" or I'm exploring trades.

Dont believe Phil (or anyone else) is going to be able to build a team for the next 3 years who can beat both LeBron and friends in the East, and the Spurs and GS in the west. The odds are slim. LeBron will keep the team stocked with super friends until he starts slowing down.

A player with Porzingis's skill set and size does not come around often, maybe never like this before. I would rather give KP a chance to learn the NBA game and see what happens vs building a team that IMO wont be together or effective for very long, and wont be good enough to go all the way. Havent even brought up the Wiz/Hawks/Bucks to go through as well.

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:IDK, i keep seeing the same veteran teams win championship after championship, the teams like the hornets, raptors, celtics, wiz, ect that are developing their young talent for the last 2 to 3 yrs are only playoff teams that are done in rnd 1 or 2.

In 3 to 4 yrs we will be a 48 win team, with really no shot at being a contender if we go the development rout, if you don't believe me go look at the standings and see if any non playoff team in that time span are contenders now.

The teams that make significant jumps in the standings, are the teams that traded for marquee talent, veterans and have a really good experience coach. I would love to watch KP and grant grow, but they need to make significant strides, be above avg from the start, and the team needs to be winning big, or you'll get frustrated with them and trade them just like THJ, gallo, wilson, and lee

i don't see where you come to this conclusion. the warriors just won a title and they were not an elite team two seasons ago. the landscape is changing in the nba. last season the final four was atlanta, cleveland, houston, and golden state. memphis clippers and spurs are up there somewhere. other than the spurs and lebron, who is the only genuine, proven franchise player, the nba is in flux.

hence there is no reason to conclude that the knicks, if they remain patient and build from within, cannot become a top 6 team three seasons from now. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 will be developmental seasons.

have a look at the list of summer 2017 free agents... it's eye-opening: http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2017/

except for golden state, these teams were made up of trades, houston hasn't develop anyone since yao ming. Again, it was in the 90's when teams would develop their drafts and have patients. With the way things are now, your toast after 2 season of no playoffs.

Yes phil is trying to set a foundation of patients and trust, but how much trust did he have in THJ, or Shump, if it was all about a learning curb and build confidence and gelling.

So if for whatever reason grant is only a marginal upgrade over calderon, or KP is too much of a project, how patient will you be.

Im telling you now, the only way these players stay together for more than a season and a half, is if we make the playoffs. If someone comes to phil with a offer for a marquee player( paul george, CP3, ect) I can bet my life that KP or grant is gone.

I believe Phil would be very careful about trading KP. A trade for Paul George feels like the McDyess trade all over again. I believe he would trade for CP3 if Phil thought that the team now would be instant contenders, serious contenders. Not just a good showing. Paul is 30, he's been pretty healthy for the last few years, but that probably is going to change.

The Knicks have the highest pick since Ewing, KP looks like he could be something special. I want a very special player coming back in return who can give us more than one or two good seasons. Otherwise I would rather take my chances with KP, Grant, and some kind of long term plan.

the operative question for me is if knicks1248 would feel the same had we drafted any one of the three players ahead of porzingis?

I would trade anyone who will make my team instantly better/contender, that's the bottom line.

It's point less having melo on the knicks without a 2nd scorer and a real vocal leader, and that goes for JORDAN, KOBE, WADE, SHAQ. Those guys by themselves will win you a some games and then breakdown form the overload.

I don't want seem to demanding of the rooks, but i'm expecting "1st all team rookie" or I'm exploring trades.

Tim Jr was 1st team all rookie. Trust me, thats not a ringing endorsement, nor is that a high bar to achieve, dude was absolute garbage.