Right off the bat, I much would've preferred signing Alexis Ajinca over Robin Lopez to be my starting 5, esp. when you look at what each guy signed for. Same age (27), Ajinca's slightly bigger/longer, better offensive skills/upside and arguably the better shot-blocker and rebounder if given comparable minutes. The major difference here is the price tag: Ajinca got 4-yrs/$20mm from NO to return as a backup C (fair value--that's exactly what a few of us thought he'd get); we gave Lopez $54mm over 4 yrs. That's a lot for Lopez, man -- dude got more per yr than Tyson Chandler and Omer Asik. Now I understand there are variables: I know N.O. locked up Ajinca early on in FA which tells me he wanted to return and they obviously wanted him back and I know we had to overpay to a degree to get players to come here, but did we really have to? What if we had Ajinca high on our board and reached out to him early on in the process ourselves (safe to assume we never even considered him/reached out to him)? What if we offered him similar money, maybe a tad more, and the starting C spot along with more mins, more touches, etc.? I think we could've got him. He wouldn't have turned that down. Now you're talking an average of $8.5mm (a little less in yr one) available to divert toward shoring up other weaknesses, namely the backcourt which, despite using up all our cap room, is still a major question mark.

I'd even argue that with Ajinca in place, we then could've saved even more money reshaping the frontcourt. On a smaller scale, I like Kyle O'Quinn and I think based on age, projection and upside, 4-yrs/$16mm is a fair contract (I certainly like that better than what we gave Lopez). But if you compare him to Kevin Seraphin and what we just picked him up for (1-yr/$2.8mm), it looks like a questionable deal, esp. considering they're very comparable players (age, size, stats, ability and projection are all very similar). Did we really need both guys, O'Quinn and now Seraphin, at the expense of using every last dollar in cap room without enhancing the backcourt any further?

I'll just start with those frontcourt signings -- I'll be taking a closer look at backcourt alternatives when I have some more time. Again, I know there are variables to consider but just looking at it in terms of value and what we spent over what we could've spent, right off the bat, I see at least $10mm we could've saved if we had gone Ajinca/Seraphin/??(Jerrelle Benimon? Darion Atkins?) over Lopez/O'Quinn/Seraphin.

Just to be clear, I'm no fan of Phil Jackson at all--but this isn't about that. This is just an honest to goodness reflection/evaluation of the offseason we had, the money we spent and the roster we now have going into next season vs. what we could've had.

Thoughts?

I'll just start with those frontcourt signings -- I'll be taking a closer look at backcourt alternatives when I have some more time. Again, I know there are variables to consider but just looking at it in terms of value and what we spent over what we could've spent, right off the bat, I see at least $10mm we could've saved if we had gone Ajinca/Seraphin/??(Jerrelle Benimon? Darion Atkins?) over Lopez/O'Quinn/Seraphin.

To me, Lopez always played the protection role for Aldridge, a no frills center who could body up, set picks, block out and do all of the mundane things for the all-star PF who preferred to play the high post. Dependable, steady, solid, proven but nothing spectacular. And I think this is the same role he will play for KP while he adjusts and gains strength.

The Knicks also need to grow as a team and win games ASAP if they plan to be able to attract a high-level free agent of worth next summer, have to keep that in mind. Ajinca/Seraphin/? does not bring any type of consistency at the C position with a rookie who is probably slated for the starting PF position and is a shaky big rotation at best. Ajinca/Seraphin are not starters and have a LONG way to go to even coming close to that level. Lopez/O'Quinn/Seraphin gives you a solid player at C with upside off the bench at 4/5 and a banger third guy for the rotation.

martin wrote:

I'll just start with those frontcourt signings -- I'll be taking a closer look at backcourt alternatives when I have some more time. Again, I know there are variables to consider but just looking at it in terms of value and what we spent over what we could've spent, right off the bat, I see at least $10mm we could've saved if we had gone Ajinca/Seraphin/??(Jerrelle Benimon? Darion Atkins?) over Lopez/O'Quinn/Seraphin.

To me, Lopez always played the protection role for Aldridge, a no frills center who could body up, set picks, block out and do all of the mundane things for the all-star PF who preferred to play the high post. Dependable, steady, solid, proven but nothing spectacular. And I think this is the same role he will play for KP while he adjusts and gains strength.

The Knicks also need to grow as a team and win games ASAP if they plan to be able to attract a high-level free agent of worth next summer, have to keep that in mind. Ajinca/Seraphin/? does not bring any type of consistency at the C position with a rookie who is probably slated for the starting PF position and is a shaky big rotation at best. Ajinca/Seraphin are not starters and have a LONG way to go to even coming close to that level. Lopez/O'Quinn/Seraphin gives you a solid player at C with upside off the bench at 4/5 and a banger third guy for the rotation.

Fair points and thanks for responding. I guess I see things a little differently -- I'm a fan of Ajinca's game/skills and I think if you gave that dude Lopez's mins. from a yr ago, I honestly believe he'd outproduce him. If and when that happened, Ajinca would then be looked at as an attractive piece to have in place moving forward, much like you're saying Lopez is/will be...I understand that's a leap of faith a little bit but I think it would've been a good gamble esp. when you consider the savings we could've then diverted toward our incomplete backcourt. Seraphin's very similar to O'Quinn when you really stop to compare the two, also turned out to be a lot cheaper. Seraphin's actually been in the NBA longer than O'Quinn too, something I didn't realize (5 years of service compared to 3 for KO). Even if we would've went with Ajinca/O'Quinn and Seraphin instead of Ajinca/Seraphin/?, there still would've been money left over to upgrade other areas. Maybe then we could've gotten a guy like Cory Joseph to be our starting PG. At the very least, there would've been more than enough money to bring Alexey Shved back. What if we could've had Ajinca/O'Quinn/Seraphin, Cory Joseph for $8mm/season and then Shved with the room exception along with the other additions Phil brought in (D-Will, Afflalo)? I would've preferred that over what we have now by a mile...That's how I'm looking at this...I just question whether we really maximized value with the cap room we had.

Finestrg wrote:Don't want to go nuts here--the roster Phil put together looks decent enough and workable and we should be better (hopefully). Just curious if anyone had players out there they wished Phil targeted/signed over what he brought in.

Just to be clear, I'm no fan of Phil Jackson at all--but this isn't about that. This is just an honest to goodness reflection/evaluation of the offseason we had, the money we spent and the roster we now have going into next season vs. what we could've had.

Thoughts?

Five critical issue I saw needing addressed with any player considered for free agency

1) Can the player play defense. (At the time, the locked in guys included Melo, Hardaway Jr and Calderon, the roster could not afford more defensive liabilities) A "plus" defender is always ideal, a player who can extend his defensive prowess outside of his own assignment. But at minimum, a player who can "defend his own weight" I.E. a player who can at least give you league average defense at his position consistently.

2) Can the player help the Knicks immediately given their practical floor, not their ceiling. Honestly, this isn't the kind of situation where you want veterans coming in hoping for their upside, what you want IMHO are veterans who can consistently give you their "floor", which is baseline production you can count on each and every night. I think this is critical for a team that was clearly the least talented 15 man roster in the league.

3) Is the player a practical target? I.E. do the Knicks actually have a chance at signing the player in question. They were not going to get Tier 1 and Tier 2 free agents and most likely would have to mine the Tier 4 and Tier 5 bracket ( which they did)

4) Can they get the player without a gross overpay. ( They just walked out of two massive dead weight contracts, to jump right into another would be brutal to the hopes of winning and the fanbase) Out of the range of players who would consider the Knicks, who can help, but who can come at a practical cost basis.

5) Does the player offer flexibility from an asset standpoint? ( i.e. Can I flip this guy later in a trade if I have to do it or if there is value to be had in the situation. At the trade deadline, historically what moves? Pivots. Shooters. Defense. Backup point guards. Wings. If Robin Lopez only cost you cap space, you can get one or two good years out of him, then trade him for positive assets, to me, that's a win. That's flexibility. Take something and generate more out of than when you started, this is what good franchises do. Finding a positive asset and losing it for nothing ( like Lin) is what bad franchises do.

Given that criteria, granted it's just my own but I find it to be pragmatic, I think bot Jae Crowder and Aaron Brooks could have helped this roster. Both would have been in the range of players they could get, I think both would have been trade feasible in the future and Crowder is a solid to plus defender and young. Brooks would have been a nice solid veteran to mentor Grant and give the backcourt more depth, would have rather spent some of the money used on DWill on him. I would have liked Crowder over Affalo.

I've also said consistently that to keep courting Larry Sanders, who the Bucks stretched out on a buyout, would have been a strong move. Yes its likely he will never return to the NBA, but he's a young potential DPOY candidate and pivot who could literally change an entire teams defense if motivated and playing tough. Given he'd only command a vets minimum at virtually no risk, I'd just say keeping pushing for it and keep courting him. As he's not in the NBA, no tampering involved here.

Would have preferred

Jae Crowder to Aaron Affalo
Aaron Brooks to Derrick Williams
Chuck Hayes to Kevin Seraphin
Larry Sanders to Lou Amundson
Robert Upshaw/Christian Wood ( soon to be cut) to Lance Thomas
Devin Booker and a future draft pick/other assets in a trade down ( 2016 to be ideal to flush out the Stepien Rule trap) to Zinger

Like the O'Quinn and Lopez signings.

Knicks simply are not going to run anyone off the floor by scoring more points. I saw no roster permutation with the draft and free agency and practical targets to do that. They could however, try to build around solid no frills defense. And shift Melo to a sixth man role, where he'd just have to worry about scoring and put defense and shooting around him. ( Sixth Man being a very loose term, many players like Manu Ginobili aren't technically starters but play starters minutes)

I see names thrown around, but one thing that's consistent with the players we brought in is charecter. We have a team full of team players. Selfless guys. Hard working, fundementally sound guys.

Can't say that about a lot the other players mentioned. Derrick williams is our only question mark on the roster, but his attitude suggests that he is a guy that wants to find his niche within the team concept.

Only Big Man I wanted was Seraphin. I knew we couldn't get LaMarcus and David West didn't want anything to do with us...i thought Seraphin was the 3rd best big for our team on the market.

So from my perspective, we did a fine job. We have a fine roster. Fisher has to bring it on his end.

EnySpree wrote:The market was out of control this year with the irresponsible signings. I thought the Knicks did the best they could considering.

I see names thrown around, but one thing that's consistent with the players we brought in is charecter. We have a team full of team players. Selfless guys. Hard working, fundementally sound guys.

Can't say that about a lot the other players mentioned. Derrick williams is our only question mark on the roster, but his attitude suggests that he is a guy that wants to find his niche within the team concept.

Only Big Man I wanted was Seraphin. I knew we couldn't get LaMarcus and David West didn't want anything to do with us...i thought Seraphin was the 3rd best big for our team on the market.

So from my perspective, we did a fine job. We have a fine roster. Fisher has to bring it on his end.

I thought the Seraphin pickup was just as good as the Lopez signing. I watched Seraphin a lot, since I live in Maryland and ran into him at local bars and casinos. I thought he played pretty well down the stretch, and even looked like a worthy starter, which is why he's requesting a starting role. Lopez game was so ugly to me, it was hard to watch. But I can't argue against his production as a rebounder / rim protector. And since Lopez isn't the offensive guy like his brother, it really gives Melo the opportunity to own the paint on offense. Theres no Amari around to take up space. The problem is when Lopez leaves the paint, his man will just double team Melo. But when you take Lopez out and bring in KP, it's a different story. Same with Seraphin.....he's a decent scorer as well. If he was the starter for us, he would have a career year, playing next to Melo. Based on Lopez injury history, Seraphins chances of starting is bound to happen.....Unless Fisher likes O'quinn at center, which is possible. Both are in their prime, with upside as a starter.

We have a high character ,leader who is a very solid rim protector-Lopez
We have O quinn who can be relied upon to protect the rim, be a really decent passer and score a little. The only thing that scares me is when he said in the Clyde interview.at Sl that he wants to take more longer twos.
Seraphin, who is a low risk high reward signing a really talented guy but has pretty poor Bball IQ.

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:I actually kind of like what we did with our center position.
Lopez
Quinn
Seraphin

We have a high character ,leader who is a very solid rim protector-Lopez
We have O quinn who can be relied upon to protect the rim, be a really decent passer and score a little. The only thing that scares me is when he said in the Clyde interview.at Sl that he wants to take more longer twos.
Seraphin, who is a low risk high reward signing a really talented guy but has pretty poor Bball IQ.

more long 2's. Perfect! Phil is gonna really love this guy and has him saying all the right things.

Kyle O’Quinn: “I’m working on the same things I always do. I’m trying to expand my game, learn from my mistakes last year and focus on little things like screen-setting, rolling out of screens faster, picking my spots on the pop shot. Of course, I’m working on my jump-shot, some go-to moves in the post, my conditioning and body, things like that. The biggest thing for me is sharpening up the things that I do well. I do want to get better at shooting corner threes. Last year, I was asked to do that and I want to keep working on that and expanding my range. I’m just sharpening everything so that I’m more comfortable and confident with my shot. At Impact, they help you become an all-around player, so I’ll be ready to play any role that’s asked of me. I’m following the Impact plan.”

Finestrg wrote:I really wish we could hit the rewind button and get the Lopez move back. Decent player although he feels like a glorified backup 5 to me. He'll fit in--I guess I'm just hung up on the money we gave him more than anything else. To give that guy 4 yrs/$13.5mm per on average was pretty ridiculous. I know Phil, Steve and co. didn't have the luxury of looking into a crystal ball right before FA hit and that FA didn't go according to plan, but I wish they didn't settle for Robin Lopez on that gross overpay. When all the big FAs spurned us, I think it would've been wise to maintain flexibility. The Lopez signing feels real impulsive and reactionary to not being able to reel in one of the big fish...It would've been nice to have at least reached out to Alexis Ajinca early on in the process to gauge his intentions and to see if he would've been open to the possibility of joining the Knicks. 4 yrs/$20mm for Ajinca is a STEAL. MUCH MUCH BETTER buy over the 4 yrs/$54mm we gave Lopez imho. Ajinca would've been on my FA shopping list, ahead of Lopez, ahead of Kyle O'Quinn (and I like O'Quinn). In an alternate universe somewhere, we could've had Ajinca/O'Quinn/Seraphin, Cory Joseph, Alexey Shved, D-Will & Afflalo to go along with the very good draft we had. That would've felt like a much more complete revamp than what we wound up doing in actuality..When you look at it like that, the Lopez signing feels like a big-time misappropriation of funds. Just mho...We'll see how it goes.

I like Ajinca, but I think he was probably lower on the list because of he has never been a full time starter for a complete season. It's hard to rely on a guy that has never done it when you have the option to get a guy who has at least done it a few times. He had 2 consecutive 82 game seasons and then last year he broke his hand rebounding and only played 59 games.

Unfortunately Ajinca hasn't had a stretch like that so far. Maybe he can do it but so far he hasn't. RoLo gets a bit of a bad rap offensively. He had a TS% of 57.3, 60.5 and 57.4 the last 3 yrs. RoLo's WS/48 has been .129, .176 and .150. He had a down year last year IMO, I think he could really have a very good year this coming season and get back to the level he was at the year before last.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:I actually kind of like what we did with our center position.
Lopez
Quinn
Seraphin

We have a high character ,leader who is a very solid rim protector-Lopez
We have O quinn who can be relied upon to protect the rim, be a really decent passer and score a little. The only thing that scares me is when he said in the Clyde interview.at Sl that he wants to take more longer twos.
Seraphin, who is a low risk high reward signing a really talented guy but has pretty poor Bball IQ.

more long 2's. Perfect! Phil is gonna really love this guy and has him saying all the right things.

Man you guys need to get a grip with this Triangle hate stuff. O'Quinn said that he had been working on his 3pt shot and was trying to extend his range. He's already good from midrange but was asked to shoot more corner 3's.

Kyle O’Quinn: “I’m working on the same things I always do. I’m trying to expand my game, learn from my mistakes last year and focus on little things like screen-setting, rolling out of screens faster, picking my spots on the pop shot. Of course, I’m working on my jump-shot, some go-to moves in the post, my conditioning and body, things like that. The biggest thing for me is sharpening up the things that I do well. I do want to get better at shooting corner threes. Last year, I was asked to do that and I want to keep working on that and expanding my range. I’m just sharpening everything so that I’m more comfortable and confident with my shot. At Impact, they help you become an all-around player, so I’ll be ready to play any role that’s asked of me. I’m following the Impact plan.”

What's funny is I remember this but I believe it came before he sat down with Phil. lol. So after phil he went from working on hitting 3s to talking about long twos. lol. Hopefully, they will ask him to shoot more 3s like jason Smith did late in the year.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

TPercy wrote:I actually kind of like what we did with our center position.
Lopez
Quinn
Seraphin

We have a high character ,leader who is a very solid rim protector-Lopez
We have O quinn who can be relied upon to protect the rim, be a really decent passer and score a little. The only thing that scares me is when he said in the Clyde interview.at Sl that he wants to take more longer twos.
Seraphin, who is a low risk high reward signing a really talented guy but has pretty poor Bball IQ.

more long 2's. Perfect! Phil is gonna really love this guy and has him saying all the right things.

Man you guys need to get a grip with this Triangle hate stuff. O'Quinn said that he had been working on his 3pt shot and was trying to extend his range. He's already good from midrange but was asked to shoot more corner 3's.

Kyle O’Quinn: “I’m working on the same things I always do. I’m trying to expand my game, learn from my mistakes last year and focus on little things like screen-setting, rolling out of screens faster, picking my spots on the pop shot. Of course, I’m working on my jump-shot, some go-to moves in the post, my conditioning and body, things like that. The biggest thing for me is sharpening up the things that I do well. I do want to get better at shooting corner threes. Last year, I was asked to do that and I want to keep working on that and expanding my range. I’m just sharpening everything so that I’m more comfortable and confident with my shot. At Impact, they help you become an all-around player, so I’ll be ready to play any role that’s asked of me. I’m following the Impact plan.”