[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

The Case for Willie Trill Cauley Stein
Author Thread
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
5/25/2015  4:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/25/2015  4:52 PM
Realized we didn't have one of these for Stein. We get so caught up in potential, we might be ignoring a guy who has demonstrated absolutely elite, all world talent in a few key areas. Defense, pick and roll defense, passing lane defense, rebounding, offensive rebounding, fast break... this kid is not a complete weapon in the post and likely won't be, but he can be an elite defensive weapon like Draymond Green and also an elite rebounder. Put him next to Monroe in the post and you've got a big mobile target for Melo and Monroe to hit when they're doing their thing in the Triangle.

Dennis Rodman was limited offensively, but fit next to the post offense of late period Michael Jordan like a glove. I think WCS could be a great great player - we've already seen how Melo thrives next to big centers and I think Stein could arguably be better than Tyson Chandler.

I might just be leaning towards Willie Cauley Stein at 4 at this point. He's better than Tyson was as a kid. He's so quick on the pick and roll. He's going to win at least one Defensive Player of the Year award.

It's disappointing to not get Towns, but Cauley Stein will be a dominant defensive pressence and a dominant offensive rebounder in this league for years.

Try to add Greg Monroe and maybe DeMarre Carroll or Khris Middleton (though I doubt Milwaukee lets him go, but maybe with Parker in the wings) and you've got a long, defensive team with Melo and Monroe and Middleton as offensive options.

Galloway
Middleton or Carroll or Danny Green
Melo
Monroe
WCS

¿ △ ?
AUTOADVERT
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
5/25/2015  5:22 PM
I like your proposed lineup. Good defense mixed in with some reliable offense. If you're gonna go with WCS it's a pretty good group. Middleton would be super sweet to add to this team. I don't know how far the Bucks are willing to go but i'd go real high to get that kid away from them.

WCS is probably the least sexy of all the options. It's so hard to sell a defensive specialist as a #4 pick the city can get behind. I do think he would make an immediate positive impact on the defense, but when you have only one shot at the high 1st rd pick, most people would want a 2 way player that high or a really elite offensive player. There's just not the same love for an elite defensive player.

WaltLongmire
Posts: 27623
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/28/2014
Member: #5843

5/25/2015  5:27 PM
You just lose so much on the offensive end with Stein, unless the Knicks saw some offensive potential in all those KU practices they watched during their season.

His FT shooting improved somewhat, but other than that, he is essentially the same player he was 3 years ago. Seems like a good guy and a warrior, but his game is limited in many ways.

Does everyone forget that he is a 3 year player who has played with some very good bigs at Kentucky and yet, seemingly, he has not shown significant offensive development, at least in the games we see on TV.

Porzingis is already infinitely better on offense, and as he gets stronger, he will be comparable on the defensive end.

Kaminsky is infinitely better on the offensive end, a decent rebounder, and while he doesn't have Stein's defensive versatility, he is not chopped meat, IMO.

Stein might be someone you take if you trade down and pick up another 1st round pick this year or next, and in the trade you get a younger player who can help the Knicks immediately, but I just don't think he is worthy of the 4 slot. Had his chance to be at that level, but he's never upped his game enough, and I would even go as far as to say that if he had played on another college team he might not even be considered a top ten pick.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
5/25/2015  5:51 PM
I just watched a video of him - I'm not sure I'd discount what he could do for an offense - being able to get out on the break, attack and finish in traffic.

Get me Jeremy Lin, Stein and D'Antoni, and let Melo and filler round out the roster - you'd get 40 wins next year!

nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
5/25/2015  6:46 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:You just lose so much on the offensive end with Stein, unless the Knicks saw some offensive potential in all those KU practices they watched during their season.

His FT shooting improved somewhat, but other than that, he is essentially the same player he was 3 years ago. Seems like a good guy and a warrior, but his game is limited in many ways.

Does everyone forget that he is a 3 year player who has played with some very good bigs at Kentucky and yet, seemingly, he has not shown significant offensive development, at least in the games we see on TV.

Porzingis is already infinitely better on offense, and as he gets stronger, he will be comparable on the defensive end.

Kaminsky is infinitely better on the offensive end, a decent rebounder, and while he doesn't have Stein's defensive versatility, he is not chopped meat, IMO.

Stein might be someone you take if you trade down and pick up another 1st round pick this year or next, and in the trade you get a younger player who can help the Knicks immediately, but I just don't think he is worthy of the 4 slot. Had his chance to be at that level, but he's never upped his game enough, and I would even go as far as to say that if he had played on another college team he might not even be considered a top ten pick.

I'm not sure. I actually think he'd be asked to do more on another team and that might have made him look like a better prospect. KU is a horrible spot to really show what you can do cuz they have too many players. You can't feature anyone. I believe that with higher use WCS could be a more effective offensively. He's too athletic and too big to not be able to be useful at the next level. If Lou Amundson could show a little growth offensively in the Triangle then WCS should be able to find a niche as well.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 39944
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

5/25/2015  6:51 PM
crzymdups wrote:I might just be leaning towards Willie Cauley Stein at 4 at this point. He's better than Tyson was as a kid.

Not really a fair comparison. Tyson was a high school senior while Stein is coming in as a junior. I Like Stein, but he's bad value. I'd only consider him if we trade down.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
5/25/2015  7:44 PM
This is a pretty good article by Chris Herring. It was from a little while back, but he did a good job of covering the idea of WCS at #4.

But what if the ping-pong balls don’t bounce the Knicks’ way, and they slip to No. 4? That’s where Kentucky center Willie Cauley-Stein becomes an interesting candidate.

The 7-footer is wildly athletic, and may be college basketball’s best defensive player. Even with those strengths, though, there are questions about Cauley-Stein’s offense, and whether his skill set on that end would fit with the Knicks’ triangle offense.

For Part 3 in our series on college prospects whom the Knicks should consider drafting (the first two focused on Okafor and Russell), we went on the road to watch Cauley-Stein up close and analyze how he might look in orange and blue.

Versatility: Opposing teams often abandon the pick-and-roll against Kentucky because Cauley-Stein’s quickness and ability to defend guards as well as centers allow the Wildcats to switch without being at a disadvantage. Cauley-Stein often guards the opposing team’s best scorer, regardless of position. The most recent example: He limited Auburn point guard K.T. Harrell, the SEC’s leading scorer, to 1-of-12 shooting.

Doesn’t have ‘off’ switch: It wasn’t a shock to see Cauley-Stein dive onto the hardwood for a loose ball in a hard-fought overtime win over Mississippi. But it was eye-opening to see him launch himself onto the floor during the closing stages of a 48-point victory over Texas-Arlington. He also takes the task of closing out on jump shooters seriously, and always gets a hand in the shooter’s face. That would help the Knicks, who allow the highest 3-point percentage in the NBA and contest just 20% of their opponent’s attempts from deep, according to SportVU.

Efficient without controlling the ball: While Kentucky lists Cauley-Stein as a forward, likely due to his defensive versatility, talent evaluators draw comparisons between he and Dallas Mavericks center Tyson Chandler. Both frequently serve as big, athletic target for alley-oops. Cauley-Stein dunks considerably less—according to StatSheet, 50% of his baskets are slams, as opposed to 65% of Chandler’s—and takes more jumpers, giving him a lower field-goal percentage than the ex-Knick, at 57%. But a stopwatch analysis of each of Kentucky game this season reveals that Cauley-Stein possesses the ball for just 1.46 seconds on average each time he touches it in the frontcourt—a rate that would make him less stingy than Quincy Acy, who has the shortest average time of possession on the Knicks roster, per NBA Savant.

Premier shot-blocking instincts: Between his athleticism and uncanny timing, Cauley-Stein makes life difficult for opposing guards, both as a primary and roving help defender. Watching film, it almost looks as if he sometimes wants shorter players to get a half step on him, in hopes of inducing a shot. That’s how much Cauley-Stein trusts his length and foot speed: He knows he’ll be able to catch players from behind to get a block as their shots are being released. His 7% block rate is a career-low, but some of that can be overlooked since he’s playing alongside Towns (12.2%), who serves as a more traditional anchor and erases several shots that Cauley-Stein would otherwise block himself.

Not strong with ball in his hands: Cauley-Stein usually loses the ball when a second defender provides help and reaches in to disrupt him. Almost half his turnovers this season were the result of being stripped. When he manages to hold on to the rock, he often jackknifes and double-clutches around instead of simply going straight into a defender’s body to assure a trip to the free-throw line.

Not a traditional rebounder: Cauley-Stein’s rebound rate, at 17.4% on defense and just under 15% overall, is lackluster for someone his size. Again, Towns’s presence partly explains that. But the low defensive rebound mark may stem from Cauley-Stein’s versatility. A center obviously can’t collect many rebounds when he’s tasked with guarding (or constantly switching onto) a wing player for an entire game. Still, if the Knicks—with a defensive-rebounding rate that ranks third-worst in the league—drafted Cauley-Stein, they’d be wise to sign free agents who not only can switch on defense, but also rebound well for the positions they play.

Willing shooter, but inaccurate: The 21-year-old hasn’t been shy about pulling the trigger this year when left open along the baseline or at the elbow. But he’s made just 32% of his attempts from seven feet and beyond this season—almost identical to last year, when he hit 31% of his attempts from that range, according to Shot Analytics.

Questionable fit for triangle offense: Unlike Okafor and Towns, both ideal for the triangle because of their ability to play with their backs to the basket, posting up may never be Cauley-Stein’s forte on offense. He doesn’t look lost while trying to post up, but he’s scored on just a third of his looks in post-ups, and is far more of a threat when he lurks along the baseline behind a defense that has been distracted by a driving guard. His skill set may be better suited for an up-tempo team that runs frequent pick-and-rolls—not a Knick club that ranks third-to-last in both pace and pick-and-roll frequency, per Synergy Sports.

Free-throw improvement is unusual: Cauley-Stein shot 37% from the line as a freshman, 48% last season and now is at 62% this season—a very drastic set of year-to-year increases. Just three players in NBA history have ever seen 10-percentage-point improvements at the line in consecutive years, per Stats LLC. Among them: Karl Malone, who began his career as a very poor foul shooter, but later became solid at the stripe and a threat from midrange.

Blocks often go back to offense: Cauley-Stein is an intimidating shot-blocker, but he has a tendency to throw the shots out of bounds, usually giving opposing teams a second chance. Opponents have recovered 53.4% of Cauley-Stein’s blocks, per Hoop-Math—a drastic difference from the 34.9% rate at which they recover rejections by Towns. (In fairness, he makes up for this by leading his team in steals, with 45, despite playing center.)

Film study may be new concept: Asked how he goes about staying engaged during film review, since his team remains undefeated—and therefore shouldn’t have all that much to improve upon—Cauley-Stein said he really doesn’t have to. “We don’t watch a lot of film. We just watch maybe four or five clips before a game,” he said with a laugh. “We don’t really have a chance to get bored watching film, because it’s such a short amount of time that we’re doing it for.”

Older than other prospects: At 21, Cauley-Stein is about two years older than the other top prospects who are eligible to declare for this year’s draft—a fact that may make him more NBA-ready than the other players. On the other hand, though, some may argue that he has less upside than the younger prospects for that same reason.

Accelerates the game at both ends: Cauley-Stein is always a threat to fly down the court—and finish with a highlight-reel dunk—as 20% of his shot attempts have come in transition, per Hoop-Math. Kentucky coach John Calipari’s has enjoyed great success by putting the 7-footer on the ball during press situations. In a game against Montana State, Cauley-Stein’s length and quickness on the press repeatedly stifled the inbounder, and it took the Bobcats a whopping eight tries before they managed to cross half-court against Cauley-Stein and the Kentucky defense.

Cauley-Stein’s agility, particularly in today’s pick-and-roll heavy NBA, is incredibly valuable and would provide the Knicks with different options as to how they structure their defense. He’s more than just a rim protector, and can guard multiple positions with great energy while making the Knicks more athletic and up-tempo.

The bigger question, and the greater unknown, is on the offensive end.

Jackson’s decision to trade Chandler—which he has acknowledged was at least partly rooted in the fact that he didn’t see Chandler as an ideal fit in the triangle—makes the Cauley-Stein situation more interesting from a philosophical standpoint, since he lacks what many would perceive to be necessary triangle skills.

Still, we can’t assume that Jackson would pass on a prospect with this kind of talent simply because of the Chandler trade. Chandler was a 31-year-old player with a history of injuries that was set to make almost $15 million in the final year of his contract.

Passing on Cauley-Stein if the Knicks draft No. 4 would be understandable. Another player might strike them as more talented, and most prospects would probably fit their offense better. But taking him would help clarify where the organization stands on the “fit versus talent” question that figures to shape the team’s summer plans.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/in-defense-of-taking-willie-cauley-stein-1427401619
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
5/25/2015  9:06 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:You just lose so much on the offensive end with Stein, unless the Knicks saw some offensive potential in all those KU practices they watched during their season.

His FT shooting improved somewhat, but other than that, he is essentially the same player he was 3 years ago. Seems like a good guy and a warrior, but his game is limited in many ways.

Does everyone forget that he is a 3 year player who has played with some very good bigs at Kentucky and yet, seemingly, he has not shown significant offensive development, at least in the games we see on TV.

Porzingis is already infinitely better on offense, and as he gets stronger, he will be comparable on the defensive end.

Kaminsky is infinitely better on the offensive end, a decent rebounder, and while he doesn't have Stein's defensive versatility, he is not chopped meat, IMO.

Stein might be someone you take if you trade down and pick up another 1st round pick this year or next, and in the trade you get a younger player who can help the Knicks immediately, but I just don't think he is worthy of the 4 slot. Had his chance to be at that level, but he's never upped his game enough, and I would even go as far as to say that if he had played on another college team he might not even be considered a top ten pick.

I don't know how much you lose on offense. In the NBA you need a garbage man on the floor. A guy who gets offensive rebounds, hustles, etc. Stein is like that but he can finish over the top of most of the league. He's huge. Also, I think you could make a fair argument that with guys like Towns and Randle on the floor at Kentucky with Stein his numbers were probably tamped down a little. Also, Kentucky's platoon system kept all their numbers down.

And that's not even focusing on his defense. He's an all world defender. The Knicks were one of the worst defenses in the league the past year - particularly at guarding the pick and roll, the bread and butter of the league. He would help a ton on that end.

I actually think if you're looking at guys who could make an impact next season, Stein might be the biggest possible impact.

¿ △ ?
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
5/25/2015  9:10 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
crzymdups wrote:I might just be leaning towards Willie Cauley Stein at 4 at this point. He's better than Tyson was as a kid.

Not really a fair comparison. Tyson was a high school senior while Stein is coming in as a junior. I Like Stein, but he's bad value. I'd only consider him if we trade down.

I meant that Stein will have a quicker adjustment period to the league. It took Tyson a few years, really til he got to New Orleans, to make a big impact. I think by virtue of his being a junior he'll be able to adjust to the league more quickly. If you think Phil isn't considering that, I'd think again.

Also, most mocks have Stein slated at 6th, with at least one international ahead of him. So Stein is listed as the 4th or 5th best college player in the draft. Is that really a reach at 4? Particularly since he has an all world elite ability to guard the pick and roll, our single biggest defensive weakness AND he's elite at closing out on three point shooters, our second biggest defensive weakness?

I think Stein is tailor made to defend the way the NBA plays now. I think he'll be very good. And will probably be surprisingly effective on offense. He already has a better mid-range jumper than Tyson ever developed and he has an ability to drive the ball to the hoop, in a straight line at least, another offensive wrinkle Tyson never picked up in 10-12 years in the league.

¿ △ ?
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
5/25/2015  9:13 PM
Some of the draft arguments being made remind me of the 2003 draft. I was dead set on selecting David West at 9th for the Knicks. A lot of my friends were heart broken about missing out on Lebron and talked themselves into the upside of Sweetney.

Sometimes it's not about upside - if you see a guy and his skillset readily translates to the league without needing to add 20 lbs or muscle or better shot selection... when you see a guy like David West or Willie Cauley Stein, sometimes I think it just makes sense to take him.

Does he have upside? I mean, do multiple Defensive Player of the Year awards count as upside? Does the Knicks improving from 29th defense to say 15th defense in one year count as upside?

¿ △ ?
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
5/25/2015  9:21 PM
WCS is not totally devoid of offensive ability. It is odd that he hasn't gotten significantly better considering how he's improved his FT shooting. There has to be some talent there. Still DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler have made careers off mostly Alleyoop plays. I think WCS has a chance to do a little more.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
5/25/2015  9:26 PM
nixluva wrote:WCS is not totally devoid of offensive ability. It is odd that he hasn't gotten significantly better considering how he's improved his FT shooting. There has to be some talent there. Still DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler have made careers off mostly Alleyoop plays. I think WCS has a chance to do a little more.

DeAndre Jordan is likely going to get a five year $105M or so deal this off-season. I'd say the ability to lock in a cheaper version of Jordan for the next five years would be pretty nice.

And Stein is better than Jordan on FTs. Stein was 61.7% this past season, Jordan was 39.7% this past season. Tyson Chandler came into the league a 60% FT shooter and worked himself up to a respectable 70%.

Stein has the jumper that is not bad and his ability to dribble drive is something you don't often see in a big center.

But again, the defense is seriously ELITE. He is all world defensively. We absolutely 100% need that.

¿ △ ?
ramtour420
Posts: 26313
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 3/19/2007
Member: #1388
Russian Federation
5/25/2015  9:32 PM
I would have no problem at all if we got him. I don't think it's really a reach, just as was suggested. Either him or Winslow and I'd say we did the most we could this draft. Not counting trading the pick, cause that would be just silly
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
GustavBahler
Posts: 42864
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

5/25/2015  9:37 PM
Dont want him at 4, but WCS could help if we had a quality PG to get him the ball where he likes it. If we drafted a big, would rather it be a Towns or Okafor who can get buckets at will.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
5/25/2015  9:38 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:WCS is not totally devoid of offensive ability. It is odd that he hasn't gotten significantly better considering how he's improved his FT shooting. There has to be some talent there. Still DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler have made careers off mostly Alleyoop plays. I think WCS has a chance to do a little more.

DeAndre Jordan is likely going to get a five year $105M or so deal this off-season. I'd say the ability to lock in a cheaper version of Jordan for the next five years would be pretty nice.

And Stein is better than Jordan on FTs. Stein was 61.7% this past season, Jordan was 39.7% this past season. Tyson Chandler came into the league a 60% FT shooter and worked himself up to a respectable 70%.

Stein has the jumper that is not bad and his ability to dribble drive is something you don't often see in a big center.

But again, the defense is seriously ELITE. He is all world defensively. We absolutely 100% need that.

Defense is the one thing besides penetration that Phil has talked about. WCS could help solve a big part of the teams needs defensively. In terms of rim Protection and PnR defense he could hold down the D for this team and makes everyone else better. We know how that works cuz we've already seen it.

The offense thing is less important in the Triangle. It's a motion offense and WCS will get easy buckets if he keeps moving. Lou Amundson was able to find a niche offensively which gives me some confidence in WCS who has more talent.

crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
5/25/2015  9:51 PM
nixluva wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
nixluva wrote:WCS is not totally devoid of offensive ability. It is odd that he hasn't gotten significantly better considering how he's improved his FT shooting. There has to be some talent there. Still DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler have made careers off mostly Alleyoop plays. I think WCS has a chance to do a little more.

DeAndre Jordan is likely going to get a five year $105M or so deal this off-season. I'd say the ability to lock in a cheaper version of Jordan for the next five years would be pretty nice.

And Stein is better than Jordan on FTs. Stein was 61.7% this past season, Jordan was 39.7% this past season. Tyson Chandler came into the league a 60% FT shooter and worked himself up to a respectable 70%.

Stein has the jumper that is not bad and his ability to dribble drive is something you don't often see in a big center.

But again, the defense is seriously ELITE. He is all world defensively. We absolutely 100% need that.

Defense is the one thing besides penetration that Phil has talked about. WCS could help solve a big part of the teams needs defensively. In terms of rim Protection and PnR defense he could hold down the D for this team and makes everyone else better. We know how that works cuz we've already seen it.

The offense thing is less important in the Triangle. It's a motion offense and WCS will get easy buckets if he keeps moving. Lou Amundson was able to find a niche offensively which gives me some confidence in WCS who has more talent.

Yup, agree with that. I think this would be more of a no-brainer if there were a PG or playmaker we could sign.

That's why I'd aggresively target a guy like Khris Middleton.

I believe if we stretched Jose Calderon we could offer Middleton and Monroe both the max.

WCS, Middleton and Monroe would be a quality off-season. Not the superstar bonanza in the draft some of us hoped for (myself included), but that's the foundation of a very good team around Melo.

¿ △ ?
WaltLongmire
Posts: 27623
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/28/2014
Member: #5843

5/25/2015  9:53 PM
nixluva wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:You just lose so much on the offensive end with Stein, unless the Knicks saw some offensive potential in all those KU practices they watched during their season.

His FT shooting improved somewhat, but other than that, he is essentially the same player he was 3 years ago. Seems like a good guy and a warrior, but his game is limited in many ways.

Does everyone forget that he is a 3 year player who has played with some very good bigs at Kentucky and yet, seemingly, he has not shown significant offensive development, at least in the games we see on TV.

Porzingis is already infinitely better on offense, and as he gets stronger, he will be comparable on the defensive end.

Kaminsky is infinitely better on the offensive end, a decent rebounder, and while he doesn't have Stein's defensive versatility, he is not chopped meat, IMO.

Stein might be someone you take if you trade down and pick up another 1st round pick this year or next, and in the trade you get a younger player who can help the Knicks immediately, but I just don't think he is worthy of the 4 slot. Had his chance to be at that level, but he's never upped his game enough, and I would even go as far as to say that if he had played on another college team he might not even be considered a top ten pick.

I'm not sure. I actually think he'd be asked to do more on another team and that might have made him look like a better prospect. KU is a horrible spot to really show what you can do cuz they have too many players. You can't feature anyone. I believe that with higher use WCS could be a more effective offensively. He's too athletic and too big to not be able to be useful at the next level. If Lou Amundson could show a little growth offensively in the Triangle then WCS should be able to find a niche as well.


Yet his weaknesses, as well as Towns' I might add, were also minimized in a lineup blessed (especially this year) with so man good big men.

The flip side of your argument about being asked to do more on another team and being given more responsibility, is that it could have exposed more issues/weaknesses with his game. Are we to believe that Calipari would not have given Stein a greater role in the offense if Stein had showed him that he could handle the added responsibility?

Hard for me to understand people discounting a guy like Kaminsky and not Stein, when Kaminsky clearly upped his game while in college, and not only handled the greater responsibility, but thrived, to the point where his team defeated the team with Towns and Stein.


Many seem to believe that "elite athleticism" equals "elite player," or that a player cannot have an upside without said "elite athleticism." Not sure this is true.

Stein can be a nice part on a good team, or rather, an nice part of the right team, but he still has a lot of limitations, despite his propensity to get on the highlight reel every now and then.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
5/25/2015  10:30 PM
At the next level WCS is still an elite athlete at 7' and a rim protector. That is a very real and clear role. Guys get paid BIG dollars to do just that in the NBA. Kaminsky is very skilled but not elite in anyway physically. There have been lots of guys with his skill level that haven't really done much at the NBA level. The things WCS specializes in have always been prized by winning teams since Bill Russell. WCS will get points off hard work and not so much by featuring him offensively. We can get offensive bigs.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
5/25/2015  10:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/25/2015  10:45 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
Yet his weaknesses, as well as Towns' I might add, were also minimized in a lineup blessed (especially this year) with so man good big men.

The flip side of your argument about being asked to do more on another team and being given more responsibility, is that it could have exposed more issues/weaknesses with his game. Are we to believe that Calipari would not have given Stein a greater role in the offense if Stein had showed him that he could handle the added responsibility?

Hard for me to understand people discounting a guy like Kaminsky and not Stein, when Kaminsky clearly upped his game while in college, and not only handled the greater responsibility, but thrived, to the point where his team defeated the team with Towns and Stein.


Many seem to believe that "elite athleticism" equals "elite player," or that a player cannot have an upside without said "elite athleticism." Not sure this is true.

Stein can be a nice part on a good team, or rather, an nice part of the right team, but he still has a lot of limitations, despite his propensity to get on the highlight reel every now and then.

Fair point that his weaknesses may have been masked by the superior Kentucky roster and frontcourt. Though I don't know that Cal would've gone out of his way to develop Stein's offense if he didn't need to - I think Cal was probably more concerned with going undefeated and developing Towns this season and Randle the previous one.

And he's not just an elite athlete. He's an elite defender, which is a definite and insanely valuable skill. Particularly his ability to cover the pick and roll and his speed on closing out on shooters with his length.

Defense is a skill, like shooting is a skill or dribbling is a skill - theoretically everyone can work on it and get better, but the fact is they are skills some guys are just good at to begin with or have a natural predilection towards. It's something guys have to want to be good at - Stein relishes it and is really really good at it.

¿ △ ?
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
5/25/2015  10:54 PM
IMO defense is also a talent. People don't respect it enough. To have quick reaction time, lateral quickness, length, anticipation etc. Some guys have more talent in those areas. Some guys are born with a high motor and competitive spirit that make them great defenders. You look at Noah and you can see his motor is at another level. WCS is blessed with a lot of those qualities.
The Case for Willie Trill Cauley Stein

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy