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Sixers GM gave the best explanation yet for his radical tanking plan
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mreinman
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2/20/2015  2:18 PM
Exactly what I have been saying ... I absolutely love this guy

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sixers-gm-gave-best-explanation-181000082.html

The Sixers under Hinkie are the most radical experiment in American sports. Since he took over after the 2013 season, he has traded away the team's best players, refused to sign free agents, spent as little money as possible, drafted players who are injured or overseas, and hoarded picks through an unceasing series of trades.

It's blatantly anticompetitive on a night-to-night basis, and a lot of people — NBA fans and otherwise — hate it.

At his press conference, Hinkie explained his thinking.

He said that the only way to win an NBA title is to have a team that can win 55+ games every year. And the only way to have a team that can win 55+ games every year is to get great players. And the only way to get great players is to have enough picks to either 1) draft a great player, or 2) put together a trade package for a great player that can help you make a "big leap."

Here's what he said when asked why he doesn't try to get a little bit better every year:

"What we look at is, how do we add to what we're doing in a way that gets us closer to our goal? We don't think that it will necessarily be linear — that every year you will add five wins and after 10 years you will get to 50. That's not the way we think about the world. We think that it comes at fits and starts, and you have to be prepared to put yourself in a position that you might be able to make big leaps."

Here's how he described the overarching philosophy of how you win in the NBA:

"We're focused on how to put the building blocks in place that have a chance to compete in May. Those teams win in the high-50s. They don't win in the teens and they don't add two or three wins a year and they don't add a win a month for a little while to try and get to where they're going. They get all the way to the 50s. And they get there usually on the backs of great players. We are still — as much as I've talked about how we make decisions and as much as I've talked about our organizational goals and our player development — it is a players-driven league, still. When we have a set of players that can carry us deep, that's the only way, that's the only way to get where we're going."

A central component of the plan is acquiring draft picks. The Sixers could have as many as four top-20 picks in the 2015 draft.

Hinkie said part of the reason he hoards picks is that the draft is fundamentally a crapshoot. You can't draft better than the rest of the NBA, but you can more often than the rest of the NBA:

"We will not bat a thousand on every single draft pick. We also have them by the bushelful, in part, because of that. We don't have any hubris that we will get them all right. We're not certain that we have an enormous edge over anybody else. In some cases, we might not have an edge at all."

Hinkie is only trying to build a championship-level team. He's not interested in building a team that can just make the playoffs, or even win a series or two. He wants a juggernaut, even if it means Philly is the worst team in the NBA for a few years.

When asked when he'll know when the rebuilding process is complete and he has the right players in place, Hinkie responded ominously, "We'll all know. We'll all know."

so here is what phil is thinking ....
AUTOADVERT
StarksEwing1
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2/20/2015  2:22 PM
Gotta give him credit he is loading up with a ****load of picks which is always smart
yellowboy90
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2/20/2015  2:23 PM
Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.
nixluva
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2/20/2015  2:27 PM
Nothing earth shattering. He wants to build thru the draft and since the draft is in fact a crapshoot, the more rolls of the dice the greater his chances of finding a good player.

Here's my question for him. What exactly is his plan for building an actual team? It seems like talent for talent's sake. If I'm looking at Phil, I know that he's looking for specific types of players. Smart, skilled and talented players who are great in a team concept. That's what Phil is actually looking for. You can pretty much tell which players should fit in Phil's system and thus the draft isn't so much of a crapshoot for him. A player that can pass, shows high BB IQ and can score from different areas of the floor are gonna have a high chance of success here. The purely athletic types who don't have high BB IQ or passing ability aren't gong to be as successful. I don't know what Hinkie is actually looking for based on his draft picks so far.

crzymdups
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2/20/2015  2:28 PM
It sounds great... unless they get to like year 7 with no superstar in the draft. And what if MCW was that superstar?
¿ △ ?
BigDaddyG
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2/20/2015  2:35 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

Yeah, great players need development too. How are you going to develop anyone when you're constantly cashing guys in for more picks? Teams like the Spurs, the championship Lakers, the Pistons and the Celtics did try to stay competitive during their rebuilds.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
mreinman
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2/20/2015  2:37 PM
the goal is to stockpile picks for many shots and the draft (which is a crap shoot (even for Phil))

and ...

hope that you can strike it big with a Harden type of trade

and btw, lets not forget that they have cap room to sign anyone

So ... are they not in a billion times better position than we are? As I have said, if Hinke gets hit by a bus tomorrow, he has left his successor in a golden position. If people don't see this then they just don't want to.

Of course he will need to hit big on some moves but he is giving himself 10 foul shots as opposed to 1 half court hook shot.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
mreinman
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2/20/2015  2:38 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

Yeah, great players need development too. How are you going to develop anyone when you're constantly cashing guys in for more picks? Teams like the Spurs, the championship Lakers, the Pistons and the Celtics did try to stay competitive during their rebuilds.

I don't think they want to develop. I think they want to do what the rockets did. who did they develop?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
StarksEwing1
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2/20/2015  2:39 PM
mreinman wrote:the goal is to stockpile picks for many shots and the draft (which is a crap shoot (even for Phil))

and ...

hope that you can strike it big with a Harden type of trade

and btw, lets not forget that they have cap room to sign anyone

So ... are they not in a billion times better position than we are? As I have said, if Hinke gets hit by a bus tomorrow, he has left his successor in a golden position. If people don't see this then they just don't want to.

Of course he will need to hit big on some moves but he is giving himself 10 foul shots as opposed to 1 half court hook shot.

agreed
nixluva
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2/20/2015  2:50 PM
mreinman wrote:the goal is to stockpile picks for many shots and the draft (which is a crap shoot (even for Phil))

and ...

hope that you can strike it big with a Harden type of trade

and btw, lets not forget that they have cap room to sign anyone

So ... are they not in a billion times better position than we are? As I have said, if Hinke gets hit by a bus tomorrow, he has left his successor in a golden position. If people don't see this then they just don't want to.

Of course he will need to hit big on some moves but he is giving himself 10 foul shots as opposed to 1 half court hook shot.

We fully understand that point of having a ton of draft picks. It's more than that tho. OKC hit big with KD and Westbrook, not to mention other picks. This is what Hinkie has done so far.

Year  Rd  Pk	Player		        G   MP    PTS	TRB   AST   FG%  3P%	FT%	MP	PTS	TRB	AST	WS	WS/48
2014 1 3 Joel Embiid -
2014 1 10 Elfrid Payton 56 1567 443 209 317 .423 .190 .546 28.0 7.9 3.7 5.7 0.7 .021
2014 2 32 K.J. McDaniels 52 1319 476 195 70 .399 .293 .756 25.4 9.2 3.8 1.3 0.6 .020
2014 2 39 Jerami Grant 38 710 218 113 32 .375 .387 .633 18.7 5.7 3.0 0.8 0.7 .050
2014 2 47 Russ Smith 7 33 10 3 3 .250 .167 .750 4.7 1.4 0.4 0.4 -0.2 -0.315
2014 2 52 Vasilije Micic -
2014 2 54 Nemanja Dangubic -
Year Rd Pk Player G MP PTS TRB AST FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST WS WS/48
2013 1 11 Michael Carter-Williams 111 3805 1780 691 743 .396 .261 .683 34.3 16.0 6.2 6.7 0.7 .009
2013 2 35 Glen Rice 16 152 43 24 9 .269 .250 .692 9.5 2.7 1.5 0.6 -0.2 -0.065
2013 2 42 Pierre Jackson -

He's gonna have a lot of chances to find winning talent. It's going to be interesting to see what he does in terms of actually building a team rather than collecting talent.

smackeddog
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2/20/2015  2:53 PM
At some point you have to cash in those picks and that potential for players- you have to draft guys. It's at that point the plan starts to fall apart. They picked MCW, ended up moving him, Noel's doesn't look that great, they moved their other PG before that, they moved KJ McDaniels for nothing. You can't be chasing dreams and potential forever. Sure, you have a better chance at getting it right with more picks, but it's still a crap chute.
Knixkik
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2/20/2015  2:55 PM
crzymdups wrote:It sounds great... unless they get to like year 7 with no superstar in the draft. And what if MCW was that superstar?

He said it himself, the draft is a crapshoot, which we all know, and so is his plan. He is going to just toss around players and picks and throw stuff at the wall hoping something eventually sticks with no end game or timeframe to which he is held accountable. The only thing that is definite in this whole process is his job security, so good for him. Trading MCW shows he is just going to delay the rebuild as far as he can. I was never sold on what he is doing, but i have to say if i were a part of sixers fanbase or ownership, i would be far less confident now. Trading players he drafted for future picks is not a good sign.

BigDaddyG
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2/20/2015  2:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/20/2015  2:58 PM
mreinman wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

Yeah, great players need development too. How are you going to develop anyone when you're constantly cashing guys in for more picks? Teams like the Spurs, the championship Lakers, the Pistons and the Celtics did try to stay competitive during their rebuilds.

I don't think they want to develop. I think they want to do what the rockets did. who did they develop?


Beverly, Parsons, Lowry, Dragic, Donatas Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, Chase Budinger etc. Even before Houston got Howard and Harden, they were looking for talented players who fit their system and you saw improvement from year to year. I don't see that with the 76ers.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
StarksEwing1
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2/20/2015  2:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/20/2015  2:59 PM
Knixkik wrote:
crzymdups wrote:It sounds great... unless they get to like year 7 with no superstar in the draft. And what if MCW was that superstar?

He said it himself, the draft is a crapshoot, which we all know, and so is his plan. He is going to just toss around players and picks and throw stuff at the wall hoping something eventually sticks with no end game or timeframe to which he is held accountable. The only thing that is definite in this whole process is his job security, so good for him. Trading MCW shows he is just going to delay the rebuild as far as he can. I was never sold on what he is doing, but i have to say if i were a part of sixers fanbase or ownership, i would be far less confident now. Trading players he drafted for future picks is not a good sign.

i would say the sixers are in a better position than we are. We basically have one pick the next 2 years so we better hit a homerun. Cap space doesnt mean we will win in free agency either
fishmike
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2/20/2015  3:07 PM
Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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2/20/2015  3:08 PM
crzymdups wrote:It sounds great... unless they get to like year 7 with no superstar in the draft. And what if MCW was that superstar?
thank you. This. Sometimes selling is stupid. Like Apple. In 2000
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
StarksEwing1
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2/20/2015  3:09 PM
fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse
mreinman
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2/20/2015  3:10 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
mreinman wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

Yeah, great players need development too. How are you going to develop anyone when you're constantly cashing guys in for more picks? Teams like the Spurs, the championship Lakers, the Pistons and the Celtics did try to stay competitive during their rebuilds.

I don't think they want to develop. I think they want to do what the rockets did. who did they develop?


Beverly, Parsons, Lowry, Dragic, Donatas Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, Chase Budinger etc. Even before Houston got Howard and Harden, they were looking for talented players who fit their system and you saw improvement from year to year. I don't see that with the 76ers.

none of those guys besides Beverly is here. The guys they have now were attained through asset compilation.

Philly is gonna also have to hit in the draft but they are giving themselves a chance to do so.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Knixkik
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2/20/2015  3:17 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
crzymdups wrote:It sounds great... unless they get to like year 7 with no superstar in the draft. And what if MCW was that superstar?

He said it himself, the draft is a crapshoot, which we all know, and so is his plan. He is going to just toss around players and picks and throw stuff at the wall hoping something eventually sticks with no end game or timeframe to which he is held accountable. The only thing that is definite in this whole process is his job security, so good for him. Trading MCW shows he is just going to delay the rebuild as far as he can. I was never sold on what he is doing, but i have to say if i were a part of sixers fanbase or ownership, i would be far less confident now. Trading players he drafted for future picks is not a good sign.

i would say the sixers are in a better position than we are. We basically have one pick the next 2 years so we better hit a homerun. Cap space doesnt mean we will win in free agency either

We aren't in great shape either, but at least our GM/Prez want to put a winning team out there. We have free agency and draft to improve, not putting it all in the draft. And teams turn around quicker retooling thru free agency. Sixer have been at this for 2 years and still don't have 1 definite player to build with as part of their core. I'm talking a proven young player. I would rather build the Atlanta way, thru a combination of draft and smart free agent signings and win 45-50 wins at first, but improve and be in the mix each year, until the core really establishes great chemistry. Atlanta has been in the playoffs each year, didn't need a full rebuild, they just made sound decisions. Let's sign the right players this summer, make the most of our single draft choice, and i guarantee we will be in better shape than the sixers who for the 3rd straight year will attempt to have the worst record in the league.

nixluva
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2/20/2015  3:19 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
crzymdups wrote:It sounds great... unless they get to like year 7 with no superstar in the draft. And what if MCW was that superstar?

He said it himself, the draft is a crapshoot, which we all know, and so is his plan. He is going to just toss around players and picks and throw stuff at the wall hoping something eventually sticks with no end game or timeframe to which he is held accountable. The only thing that is definite in this whole process is his job security, so good for him. Trading MCW shows he is just going to delay the rebuild as far as he can. I was never sold on what he is doing, but i have to say if i were a part of sixers fanbase or ownership, i would be far less confident now. Trading players he drafted for future picks is not a good sign.

i would say the sixers are in a better position than we are. We basically have one pick the next 2 years so we better hit a homerun. Cap space doesnt mean we will win in free agency either

In terms of Draft picks the Sixers are world champs. We can't compete on their level in terms of draft picks. In terms of Free Agents that's a bit more in the Knicks control. Not just the big names but the smaller pick ups that add to the overall team production. Here's the one advantage the Knicks have. We have a system which has very clear and specific roles. When we go after players we're very clearly going after players who can fit a given role. It makes things far less of a crap shoot or winging it approach.
Sixers GM gave the best explanation yet for his radical tanking plan

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