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How long will it take for the Knicks to be a real contender? How come other teams with no cap can make deals & we can,t
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Papabear
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12/24/2014  1:17 AM
Papabear Says

I see Houston, Dallas and other teams still making deals and we a stuck in mud. We gave up so many draft picks that we are messed up for the next 5 years. I now can't see Melo staying here because he will be wasting his time. Woody last year looks real good now and it will be just a matter on time before he gets another head coaching job. New York Knicks basketball is in bad shape and the way the NBA laws are made makes it hard on the Knicks. We have the most money but the worst in making a winner. Phill Jackson is my man but I guess even he cant save the Knicks.

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BRIGGS
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12/24/2014  3:16 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2014  3:22 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Papabear wrote:How long will it take for the Knicks to be a real contender?


IMHO, from the time Melo is traded off the roster, and if Phil Jackson accepts that he needs to hire a real GM ( someone with real scouting and analytics experience and has paid their dues up the ranks in some other winning franchise) instead of playing bump and go at age 70, I would say 6 years.

One thing that some Knicks fans here do is make the assumptions that

1) The Knicks will get the ideal "draft pick" slot, no matter what
2) Said player will IMMEDIATELY make a massive impact
3) There exists no chance for the player to bust or not work out for the Knicks

The Knicks need to build through the draft, but fans have to accept that even if you do everything you can, you will hit on some picks and you will miss on some picks.

IMHO, right now, the Knicks have the least talented 15 man roster in the entire NBA. When you consider long term potential. It will take time to restock the talent larder.


The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
Drafting: They have a VERY high draft pick coming up--I think there will be a 70% chance that it will be top 3 and a 20-25% chance that its 1. If that is the case--I think we walk out with either of Okafor or Stein and each has a case to be an impact NBA player right away.The bust factor with Ok4 is zero and very low with Stein. I think sans injury that Stein will be a diverse version of Tyson Chandler with more potential on the offensive end. Ok4--he will score 20-22 points a night right away ion the NBA and grab 8-10 boards. I also believe that IF we are savvy and aggressive--we can enhance our position by adding a couple of picks as in a later 1 and an early 2.

Free Agency We have roughly 30-45mm to spend depending on the JR Smith 6.3 Jose Calderon 7.5 and Pablo Prigs 2mm contracts. I think we can acquire one extremely valuable player here. Other than 1 we might want to save the position for 2016 or we may find a great secondary player--but I think we get 1. We may over pay but that is ok.

We can develop from within/be opportunistic in small trades. The Knicks are not a good BIG trade team. Weve been routinely killed for over a decade. From the owner on down big trades have not been executed well. But we can be opportunistic from players off someones bench the d league our own guys etc... small trades

Can we compete in the playoffs next year--YES. How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.
Rright now Phil Jackson can only do the following--dump anything we can get vet wise Jason Smith Prigs Dalembart are all 2nd round possibilities. Can we snag a Nate Wolters off of the Bucks bench--something of the ilk? Make sure Carmelo sits 20+ games cut Bargs and even Amare if need be. Let them go to contenders AFTER we try to trade our vets.

RIP Crushalot😞
Bonn1997
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12/24/2014  5:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2014  6:00 AM
My guess is 4 or 5 years if they're patient. If they try to get it done in 1 or 2 years, then it will probably take dozens of years.
Bonn1997
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12/24/2014  6:05 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2014  7:46 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.


^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.


This is exactly correct. People don't realize that when you make several assumptions, the probability of it all happening is the *product* of each specific event. So, you can do the following math:
Likelihood of a top 2 draft pick: Maybe 1 in 3
Likelihood that pick becomes an all star in 2 years: Again maybe 1 in 3
Likelihood Melo is still an all star by then (his 14th season): Again maybe 1 in 3
What's 1/3*1/3*1/3? Already, you're at a 1 in 27 chance and there are still many more assumptions you'd have to make for this team to be a contender - like another top FA signing here and a strong support cast. The 2 year rebuild based on the plan that these posters are laying out strikes me as having at best a 1 in 100 or maybe 1 in a thousand chance of working. Of course, if you just focus individually on each element I laid out, you can feel like it has a 1 in 3 shot, but that's just a misunderstanding of probability.
Bonn1997
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12/24/2014  6:14 AM
How come other teams with no cap can make deals & we can,t

This is probably because
1) almost every player on our roster is overpaid and undesirable
2) we don't have Phil and Dolan available as trade partners
Bonn1997
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12/24/2014  7:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2014  7:57 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Papabear wrote:How long will it take for the Knicks to be a real contender?


IMHO, from the time Melo is traded off the roster, and if Phil Jackson accepts that he needs to hire a real GM ( someone with real scouting and analytics experience and has paid their dues up the ranks in some other winning franchise) instead of playing bump and go at age 70, I would say 6 years.

One thing that some Knicks fans here do is make the assumptions that

1) The Knicks will get the ideal "draft pick" slot, no matter what
2) Said player will IMMEDIATELY make a massive impact
3) There exists no chance for the player to bust or not work out for the Knicks

The Knicks need to build through the draft, but fans have to accept that even if you do everything you can, you will hit on some picks and you will miss on some picks.

IMHO, right now, the Knicks have the least talented 15 man roster in the entire NBA. When you consider long term potential. It will take time to restock the talent larder.


The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
Drafting: They have a VERY high draft pick coming up--I think there will be a 70% chance that it will be top 3 and a 20-25% chance that its 1. If that is the case--I think we walk out with either of Okafor or Stein and each has a case to be an impact NBA player right away.The bust factor with Ok4 is zero and very low with Stein. I think sans injury that Stein will be a diverse version of Tyson Chandler with more potential on the offensive end. Ok4--he will score 20-22 points a night right away ion the NBA and grab 8-10 boards. I also believe that IF we are savvy and aggressive--we can enhance our position by adding a couple of picks as in a later 1 and an early 2.

Free Agency We have roughly 30-45mm to spend depending on the JR Smith 6.3 Jose Calderon 7.5 and Pablo Prigs 2mm contracts. I think we can acquire one extremely valuable player here. Other than 1 we might want to save the position for 2016 or we may find a great secondary player--but I think we get 1. We may over pay but that is ok.

We can develop from within/be opportunistic in small trades. The Knicks are not a good BIG trade team. Weve been routinely killed for over a decade. From the owner on down big trades have not been executed well. But we can be opportunistic from players off someones bench the d league our own guys etc... small trades

Can we compete in the playoffs next year--YES. How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.
Rright now Phil Jackson can only do the following--dump anything we can get vet wise Jason Smith Prigs Dalembart are all 2nd round possibilities. Can we snag a Nate Wolters off of the Bucks bench--something of the ilk? Make sure Carmelo sits 20+ games cut Bargs and even Amare if need be. Let them go to contenders AFTER we try to trade our vets.


There's no such thing as a 0% bust risk. What risk would you have given Greg Oden? Christian Laettner? The risk of injury alone makes the risk a lot greater than that. Even signing Lebron would be a risk. But then when you're talking about players with zero data of NBA experience - their only data is when they were playing for their first NBA contract - the risk has to be much higher.
franco12
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12/24/2014  8:48 AM
I think we're honestly 3-5 years away from being able to undo the damage of the last 15 years of mismanagement.

Stop trading away draft picks.

Stop trading for marginal stars.

No more signing long term deals with/trading for players of questionable talent (Crawford, Curry, Jerome James) or injury history (Amar'e, Antonio McDyess).

We can certainly do a lot in this off season to fix our problems. But I'd say its five years out before we can be in a position to build a legit contender.

I hope I'm wrong!

Bonn1997
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12/24/2014  8:53 AM
franco12 wrote:I think we're honestly 3-5 years away from being able to undo the damage of the last 15 years of mismanagement.

Stop trading away draft picks.

Stop trading for marginal stars.

No more signing long term deals with/trading for players of questionable talent (Crawford, Curry, Jerome James) or injury history (Amar'e, Antonio McDyess).

We can certainly do a lot in this off season to fix our problems. But I'd say its five years out before we can be in a position to build a legit contender.

I hope I'm wrong!

I hope you're right and they actually do that!

newyorknewyork
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12/24/2014  9:11 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.


^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Nalod
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12/24/2014  9:20 AM
franco12 wrote:I think we're honestly 3-5 years away from being able to undo the damage of the last 15 years of mismanagement.

Stop trading away draft picks.

Stop trading for marginal stars.

No more signing long term deals with/trading for players of questionable talent (Crawford, Curry, Jerome James) or injury history (Amar'e, Antonio McDyess).

We can certainly do a lot in this off season to fix our problems. But I'd say its five years out before we can be in a position to build a legit contender.

I hope I'm wrong!

my hope this all started when we did not get Lowrey, Signed Phil, and started the cultural revolution.

nixluva
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12/24/2014  9:24 AM
MEH! The main improvement comes from your core. We have one player in Melo. Like him or not, he is a core player for this team. Next we have to find a PG and a Center to form the core of the team and carry the bulk of the action. A PG that is capable of scoring effectively inside and out as well as Pass. A well rounded Center who can man the middle but also pass effectively. It's not rocket science. Melo is a PF more than a SF and so it really is about just developing the young SG and SF's we have or finding replacements for them. I don't think it's a 3-5 year process. It's more about making smart decisions with finding your core players.

We know Melo's limitations and strengths. The trick is not to keep adding players who are similarly limited. We need smart ball moving Players. Two way players. If Phil can add those type of players from here on we should see results rather quickly. Who would suggest we can't find a PG capable of doing the things I listed? I think it's very realistic given the FA market. One of the available PG's is going to shake loose for us to get. If Phil does that then that's one key spot down. Then perhaps we can address the C spot with either a draft pick or a reasonable cost FA.

What if we signed Dragic and R. Lopez or Reggie Jackson and Milsap? It's a possibility. IMO the more settled the core of the team the better your role players tend to look and the team overall.

Nalod
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12/24/2014  9:45 AM
The fog of uncertainty blocks the path. One step at a time and success is realized. No anxiety can be cured until one begins down the path of enlightenment. Negative thoughts are from those insecure and do not see that a problem is an opportuntiy, not an event.
arkrud
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12/24/2014  9:55 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2014  9:56 AM
I am looking at Rangers as a benchmark. Same owner, same organization, same pattern.
Team was ruined by starpunching and mismanagement and became irrelevant from 1994 to 2004.
Then Dolan stepped out and culture change begins.
It took 10 years to create a contender and now powerhouse.
We used extensive development program, smart drafting, traded for star players and get one who was a fit (Nash) after 3-4 tries.
Different type of coaches were brought in for different stages of team development.
Organization stick to the plan and ignored crybaby fan types. Now we also have best fans of the world.
If Knicks stay the course I expect team to contend in 8-10 years depending on luck and commitment.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Bonn1997
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12/24/2014  10:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2014  10:10 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.


^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.


Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.
Vmart
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12/24/2014  10:24 AM
Papabear don't sweat it next year the Knicks start their move towards playoffs. A good draft pick and some solid FAs and maybe a trade or two and Knicks are right back in the thick of things.
Nalod
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12/24/2014  10:29 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.


^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

Well done!!!!!

A culture of building and development. Not starphuching to put a band aid on a previous failure. Phil might just be an advisor beyond his contract when we succeed.

VCoug
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12/24/2014  10:51 AM
The reason other teams can make big trades and we can't is because:

A. We have almost nobody on this team that would play regularly for a good team and almost everyone is overpaid

B. We treat draft picks as if they're worthless and have done so for well over a decade now. We constantly trade 1st and 2nd round picks in bad trades when we don't have to. There's literally no reason why we should have had to given up two 2nd round picks to acquire Camby, a 2nd round pick and the draft rights to Kostas Papanikoloau to acquire Felton, and a 1st and two 2nds to acquire Bargnani; Portland and Toronto didn't even want those guys, we could've offered them next to nothing and still acquired them.

I've already outlined my best-case, somewhat realistic scenario for this Summer: draft a superstar big with our lottery pick and sign both Jimmy Butler and Tobias Harris. In this scenario I think we could be contenders by 2016-17 at the earliest. Of course, I don't think this is all that likely. I think Chicago matches any offer for Butler and unless we massively overpay Harris, like full max overpay, Orlando matches any offers for him. We end up striking out in free agency and only sign Al Jefferson at best. We barely improve over next season, Melo gets fed up and demands a trade, and we end up getting back pennies on the dollar for what we spent on him (think Toronto trading Vince Carter for Alonzo Mourning, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, and two protected 1st round picks) (and we probably wouldn't even get the two picks).

At that point I would hope that we can finally commit to a full rebuild which would take at least another 4 or 5 years to do correctly.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
newyorknewyork
Posts: 30166
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
12/24/2014  11:00 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2014  11:01 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.


^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.


Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.

The general principal of what he wrote I agree with in terms of building it over multiple yrs time and the time it will take to develop. What I don't like was that he quoted only part of what Briggs actually said. Then went on to challenge Briggs possibilities and fandom when Briggs clearly stated "we have to have a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now". "If it hits right then 2yrs".

"If it hits right" includes landing OK4 and him being a stud early. Signing one stud and mutiple other pieces over a 2 yr span. None of these things in Briggs post were said to be expected but only possibilities. Clearly he is stating best possible case scenario but I don't see Briggs claiming he expects these things to all happen like TT was trying to insinuate.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/24/2014  11:05 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
The Knicks can take a 3 tier approach to rebuilding/retooling.
...if its hits right--Id say 2.


^

Again, some fans will take the most unlikely scenario, where everything lines up and everything goes in an ideal sense. Big men ( not saying the Knicks will get any of the players that Briggs mention, but acknowledging that this draft class has a lot of pivot prospects) historically have taken much longer, than other skill positions in the NBA, to develop.

Briggs expect the Knicks to win the draft lottery and get rookie producing IMMEDIATELY at an All Star level and at a historic pace.

Is it possible? Well technically, it's in theory, possible for me to get double teamed tomorrow night by a pair of SI Swimsuit models. But is it likely? No, it's not likely.

No one knows for sure where the Knicks will end up in the draft conversation, all anyone can do is hope for the best and hope the Knicks select well and the best player available. ( That is realistic)

Briggs keeps talking about trading back into the first round to get another first round pick. And yet again, I challenge him, with WHAT ASSETS? How do you get back into the first round and get another pick without 1) Trading away future picks and 2) Taking on bad contracts ? Questions he refuses to answer. The Knicks are virtually barren of assets.

Briggs will also contend that the Knicks will get this guy or that guy in free agency, when the reality is the advantage in resigning belongs to the incumbent team, and that most young free agents with upside are usually restricted. Will the Knicks get a Tier 1 free agent? It's possible. But is it likely? Probably not. Even if the player moves on, there are 30 other teams out there.

Briggs also keeps pushing this two year time table. Again, this would require the 2015 pick to IMMEDIATELY play at an All Star and historic level, and since the Knicks have no 2016 picks, what are they going to do? There are only so many free agents and so many dollars to spend.

Stephen Curry is playing at an MVP level. He took time to develop.

Jimmy Butler, one of the apples of Brigg's eyes, took time to develop.

Reggie Jackson. Even Greg Monroe.

The Spurs. OKC. Warriors. Clippers. Bulls. Cavs. It took years for each of these teams to get to where they are now. Even the Cavs, it took years of stockpiling young assets to get to this place to entice LBJ. They drafted players, they tried to develop players, they tried to make smart trades, but they made mistakes along the way. But none of them made this major 2 year turnaround ( esp when year 2 would give them zero picks) on the fly from arguably the least talented roster in the NBA to a playoff contender.

To build something that stands the test of time, it takes time to establish that. Time and time again, NBA history has shown that massive change simply doesn't operate at the same timetable as a MLB and NFL team can.

The Knicks are in their current hell because Dolan and Zeke made moves to appease fans like you. Unrealistic fans who demand unrealistic results in unrealistic timetables. I do like your strategy though of simply ignoring the logical counterpoints you don't like. When you have no answer how the Knicks are going to rebuild when Year 2 of your 2 year plan, they have no draft picks, you'll just turtle up.

One thing about Briggs is that he doesn't come to the board to argue about nonsense. He only cares about possibilities and angles the Knicks could try and take to improve the team. He is one of the most die hard Knick fans I have seen on any message board. There is no reason to try and attack him.

Briggs has only been bringing up possibilities for the Knicks to improve. He isn't going to hold Phil accountable if he doesn't complete every single one of his fantasy possibilities(except passing on an OK4 or trading the pickat the draft). He will just adapt to how it plays out and continue to look for ways to improve the team.

You wrote all this while ignoring

How long would it take for us to compete at a higher level. Well we cant make mistakes we have to a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now. 6 years--if its hits right--Id say 2.

And even if the draft pick took 3yrs to develop into an allstar. If in 2 yrs the Knicks have a good young foundation even if they aren't contender level yet, most Knick fans will take that and continue to look for ways for the Knicks to improve from there. There will be no outrage over not being a contender in 2yrs if we have a young player(top 5 pick) to look forward to over the next 10yrs.

Whats not productive is the whole as long as Carmelo is here we aren't going to do anything talk and all our moves are going to fail just because Carmelo Anthony is on the roster.


Triplethreat clearly put a lot of thought into that reply and I all I see is pretty mild criticism of Briggs' ideas. There are enough posts with name-calling and other crap that should be more alarming than anything he just wrote.

The general principal of what he wrote I agree with in terms of building it over multiple yrs time and the time it will take to develop. What I don't like was that he quoted only part of what Briggs actually said. Then went on to challenge Briggs possibilities and fandom when Briggs clearly stated "we have to have a lot of things go our way and that is unknown right now". "If it hits right then 2yrs".

"If it hits right" includes landing OK4 and him being a stud early. Signing one stud and mutiple other pieces over a 2 yr span. None of these things in Briggs post were said to be expected but only possibilities. Clearly he is stating best possible case scenario but I don't see Briggs claiming he expects these things to all happen like TT was trying to insinuate.


I think his point is that Briggs doesn't realize *how* unlikely it is for that path to work out, though. You start throwing in several things that each have low but reasonable probabilities and soon you're at a path that has a 1 in a thousand chance of working.
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
12/24/2014  11:05 AM
VCoug wrote:The reason other teams can make big trades and we can't is because:

A. We have almost nobody on this team that would play regularly for a good team and almost everyone is overpaid

B. We treat draft picks as if they're worthless and have done so for well over a decade now. We constantly trade 1st and 2nd round picks in bad trades when we don't have to. There's literally no reason why we should have had to given up two 2nd round picks to acquire Camby, a 2nd round pick and the draft rights to Kostas Papanikoloau to acquire Felton, and a 1st and two 2nds to acquire Bargnani; Portland and Toronto didn't even want those guys, we could've offered them next to nothing and still acquired them.

I've already outlined my best-case, somewhat realistic scenario for this Summer: draft a superstar big with our lottery pick and sign both Jimmy Butler and Tobias Harris. In this scenario I think we could be contenders by 2016-17 at the earliest. Of course, I don't think this is all that likely. I think Chicago matches any offer for Butler and unless we massively overpay Harris, like full max overpay, Orlando matches any offers for him. We end up striking out in free agency and only sign Al Jefferson at best. We barely improve over next season, Melo gets fed up and demands a trade, and we end up getting back pennies on the dollar for what we spent on him (think Toronto trading Vince Carter for Alonzo Mourning, Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, and two protected 1st round picks) (and we probably wouldn't even get the two picks).

At that point I would hope that we can finally commit to a full rebuild which would take at least another 4 or 5 years to do correctly.

The picks were included to show ourselves (Dolan and MSG bureaucrats) that we are getting some good valuable players.
This is how bureaucracy works. The reality is nothing and perception is everything.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
How long will it take for the Knicks to be a real contender? How come other teams with no cap can make deals & we can,t

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