Harris, Butler, & Jackson are going to get huge paydays this coming off season. And Faried already got his. All of these guys have established stronger careers so far over our own Iman Shumpert.

At first I was thinking how Walsh blew it. But then it hit me that Iman Shumpert coming out had just as much talent, potential, & athleticism as any of these guys.

So the question is, did Walsh choose an inferior prospect or is NY not capable of really developing and growing young players? With the NY night life it could be really hard for young players to come to NY and focus on basketball and developing there games. Not to mention the short rope and pressure put on them due to the constant desire to win now. At the same time Shump was given 29mins a game his rookie yr which he got hurt in. 22mins a game as he recovered from injury and got hurt again and 27 mins a game these last 2 yrs as well as starting since his 2nd yr. But at the same time he hasn't really been given the freedom to grow with the ball in his hands which at the start of the yr this yr he was given this opportunity and played really well.

Do we have the proper player development platform here in NY? Because I want to be able to draft guys like Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler, and Perry Jones and Kyle Anderson type guys when they fall and have them turn into something.

One a side note looking at the 2011 draft its amazing how many players have carved out solid careers or look on the way to doing so out of this draft.

Kyrie Irving
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Markieff Morris
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vucevic
Tobias Harris
Kenneth Faried
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Chandler Parsons
Isaiah Thomas

honorable mention: Enes Kanter, Nikola Mirotic, Iman Shumpert, Bojan Bogdanovic
still have a chance: Corey Joseph, Marcus Morris, Donatas Motiejunas,

newyorknewyork wrote:No this isn't about a fantasy trade paring all these players. Looking back at the 2011 draft. Tobias Harris, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, and Jimmy Butler were all taken after Iman Shumpert.

Harris, Butler, & Jackson are going to get huge paydays this coming off season. And Faried already got his. All of these guys have established stronger careers so far over our own Iman Shumpert.

At first I was thinking how Walsh blew it. But then it hit me that Iman Shumpert coming out had just as much talent, potential, & athleticism as any of these guys.

So the question is, did Walsh choose an inferior prospect or is NY not capable of really developing and growing young players? With the NY night life it could be really hard for young players to come to NY and focus on basketball and developing there games. Not to mention the short rope and pressure put on them due to the constant desire to win now. At the same time Shump was given 29mins a game his rookie yr which he got hurt in. 22mins a game as he recovered from injury and got hurt again and 27 mins a game these last 2 yrs as well as starting since his 2nd yr. But at the same time he hasn't really been given the freedom to grow with the ball in his hands which at the start of the yr this yr he was given this opportunity and played really well.

Do we have the proper player development platform here in NY? Because I want to be able to draft guys like Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler, and Perry Jones and Kyle Anderson type guys when they fall and have them turn into something.

One a side note looking at the 2011 draft its amazing how many players have carved out solid careers or look on the way to doing so out of this draft.

Kyrie Irving
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Markieff Morris
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vucevic
Tobias Harris
Kenneth Faried
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Chandler Parsons
Isaiah Thomas

honorable mention: Enes Kanter, Nikola Mirotic, Iman Shumpert, Bojan Bogdanovic
still have a chance: Corey Joseph, Marcus Morris, Donatas Motiejunas,

I don't think the people who worked for the Knicks have put the correct emphasis and importance on this aspect of team building. If you look at ALL of the good teams there is one common denominator--they all have their own flock of drafted players that are core guys. We have not done that.

BigDaddyG wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No this isn't about a fantasy trade paring all these players. Looking back at the 2011 draft. Tobias Harris, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, and Jimmy Butler were all taken after Iman Shumpert.

Harris, Butler, & Jackson are going to get huge paydays this coming off season. And Faried already got his. All of these guys have established stronger careers so far over our own Iman Shumpert.

At first I was thinking how Walsh blew it. But then it hit me that Iman Shumpert coming out had just as much talent, potential, & athleticism as any of these guys.

So the question is, did Walsh choose an inferior prospect or is NY not capable of really developing and growing young players? With the NY night life it could be really hard for young players to come to NY and focus on basketball and developing there games. Not to mention the short rope and pressure put on them due to the constant desire to win now. At the same time Shump was given 29mins a game his rookie yr which he got hurt in. 22mins a game as he recovered from injury and got hurt again and 27 mins a game these last 2 yrs as well as starting since his 2nd yr. But at the same time he hasn't really been given the freedom to grow with the ball in his hands which at the start of the yr this yr he was given this opportunity and played really well.

Do we have the proper player development platform here in NY? Because I want to be able to draft guys like Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler, and Perry Jones and Kyle Anderson type guys when they fall and have them turn into something.

One a side note looking at the 2011 draft its amazing how many players have carved out solid careers or look on the way to doing so out of this draft.

Kyrie Irving
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Markieff Morris
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vucevic
Tobias Harris
Kenneth Faried
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Chandler Parsons
Isaiah Thomas

honorable mention: Enes Kanter, Nikola Mirotic, Iman Shumpert, Bojan Bogdanovic
still have a chance: Corey Joseph, Marcus Morris, Donatas Motiejunas,

I don't buy the idea that the NYC environment is an impediment to the development of our young players. David Lee, Gallinari, Wilson Chandler and Nate Robinson were all able to develop different aspects of their game while Knickerbockers. Shump just isn't on the level of Butler, Harris, Jackson and Faried. Butler had the season from hell last season and he came back stronger this year. He's mentally tough. Shump has not been able to show that level of toughness. You ever wonder why those stacked Georgia Tech basketball teams Shump played on underachieved? Bad decision making and shot selection from the guards. Shump is destined to be a Pete Myers/Devan George type. It's not physical talent that holds him back, but lack of focus. He still settles for contested shots when he should focus on taking advantage of his physical gifts and getting inside the paint. Jimmy Butler and Harris have developed their offensive games to the point where they can still contribute when their Js are off. Shump still hasn't learned to do that.

Good points, maybe mental toughness should be one of the key factors in evaluating prospects when coming to NY as they will probably have to endure a lot.

Also David Lee might be the only player that developed to his full potential.

yellowboy90 wrote:The one glaring thing I see is that the other players had a pretty good track record of scoring/shooting or at least showed promise while being able to do other things at their position but Shump did not have that offensive track record. The highest he ever shot was 40% from the field with a TS% of 52. That's awful for a college 1st rounder

newyorknewyork wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:How did Chris Singleton pan out? The guy everyone wanted over Shump? You could probably cherry pick players you should've taken from every draft in history.

This thread isn't about cherry picking prospect but a legit question if new york is capable of developing players properly.

If Reggie Jackson was drafted by he Knicks would he be in line for the payday he is in line for right now? Or would his inability to shoot consistently become magnified and ran out of town?

oh my bad. We definitely suck at developing prospects. If not traded guys like Jimmy Butler & Reggie Jackson would not be the same players they are are today if they were Knicks

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No this isn't about a fantasy trade paring all these players. Looking back at the 2011 draft. Tobias Harris, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, and Jimmy Butler were all taken after Iman Shumpert.

Harris, Butler, & Jackson are going to get huge paydays this coming off season. And Faried already got his. All of these guys have established stronger careers so far over our own Iman Shumpert.

At first I was thinking how Walsh blew it. But then it hit me that Iman Shumpert coming out had just as much talent, potential, & athleticism as any of these guys.

So the question is, did Walsh choose an inferior prospect or is NY not capable of really developing and growing young players? With the NY night life it could be really hard for young players to come to NY and focus on basketball and developing there games. Not to mention the short rope and pressure put on them due to the constant desire to win now. At the same time Shump was given 29mins a game his rookie yr which he got hurt in. 22mins a game as he recovered from injury and got hurt again and 27 mins a game these last 2 yrs as well as starting since his 2nd yr. But at the same time he hasn't really been given the freedom to grow with the ball in his hands which at the start of the yr this yr he was given this opportunity and played really well.

Do we have the proper player development platform here in NY? Because I want to be able to draft guys like Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler, and Perry Jones and Kyle Anderson type guys when they fall and have them turn into something.

One a side note looking at the 2011 draft its amazing how many players have carved out solid careers or look on the way to doing so out of this draft.

Kyrie Irving
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Markieff Morris
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vucevic
Tobias Harris
Kenneth Faried
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Chandler Parsons
Isaiah Thomas

honorable mention: Enes Kanter, Nikola Mirotic, Iman Shumpert, Bojan Bogdanovic
still have a chance: Corey Joseph, Marcus Morris, Donatas Motiejunas,

A lot of nice players but probably only 1 (Irving) worth tanking for.

Who said anything about tanking for those players? Also, Klay and Kawhai might be up there with Kyrie. Kyrie never displayed the ability to carry a team so maybe he is the perfect A-/B guy.

Side note: Wasn't there a big deal made about how MDA chose Shumpert and not Walsh? I could be confused though.

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No this isn't about a fantasy trade paring all these players. Looking back at the 2011 draft. Tobias Harris, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, and Jimmy Butler were all taken after Iman Shumpert.

Harris, Butler, & Jackson are going to get huge paydays this coming off season. And Faried already got his. All of these guys have established stronger careers so far over our own Iman Shumpert.

At first I was thinking how Walsh blew it. But then it hit me that Iman Shumpert coming out had just as much talent, potential, & athleticism as any of these guys.

So the question is, did Walsh choose an inferior prospect or is NY not capable of really developing and growing young players? With the NY night life it could be really hard for young players to come to NY and focus on basketball and developing there games. Not to mention the short rope and pressure put on them due to the constant desire to win now. At the same time Shump was given 29mins a game his rookie yr which he got hurt in. 22mins a game as he recovered from injury and got hurt again and 27 mins a game these last 2 yrs as well as starting since his 2nd yr. But at the same time he hasn't really been given the freedom to grow with the ball in his hands which at the start of the yr this yr he was given this opportunity and played really well.

Do we have the proper player development platform here in NY? Because I want to be able to draft guys like Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler, and Perry Jones and Kyle Anderson type guys when they fall and have them turn into something.

One a side note looking at the 2011 draft its amazing how many players have carved out solid careers or look on the way to doing so out of this draft.

Kyrie Irving
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Markieff Morris
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vucevic
Tobias Harris
Kenneth Faried
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Chandler Parsons
Isaiah Thomas

honorable mention: Enes Kanter, Nikola Mirotic, Iman Shumpert, Bojan Bogdanovic
still have a chance: Corey Joseph, Marcus Morris, Donatas Motiejunas,

A lot of nice players but probably only 1 (Irving) worth tanking for.

Who said anything about tanking for those players? Also, Klay and Kawhai might be up there with Kyrie. Kyrie never displayed the ability to carry a team so maybe he is the perfect A-/B guy.

Side note: Wasn't there a big deal made about how MDA chose Shumpert and not Walsh? I could be confused though.

I was putting 2 and 2 together. If you're talking about tanking this year, it makes sense to see whether it would have paid off in the past.

Okay, I get that but what the OP seemed to be saying/asking... That there maybe a systemic issue with Ny regardless of where a player is drafted tank or not. Even if the Knicks tanked and ended up with a talented player he would still not make it.

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:No this isn't about a fantasy trade paring all these players. Looking back at the 2011 draft. Tobias Harris, Kenneth Faried, Reggie Jackson, and Jimmy Butler were all taken after Iman Shumpert.

Harris, Butler, & Jackson are going to get huge paydays this coming off season. And Faried already got his. All of these guys have established stronger careers so far over our own Iman Shumpert.

At first I was thinking how Walsh blew it. But then it hit me that Iman Shumpert coming out had just as much talent, potential, & athleticism as any of these guys.

So the question is, did Walsh choose an inferior prospect or is NY not capable of really developing and growing young players? With the NY night life it could be really hard for young players to come to NY and focus on basketball and developing there games. Not to mention the short rope and pressure put on them due to the constant desire to win now. At the same time Shump was given 29mins a game his rookie yr which he got hurt in. 22mins a game as he recovered from injury and got hurt again and 27 mins a game these last 2 yrs as well as starting since his 2nd yr. But at the same time he hasn't really been given the freedom to grow with the ball in his hands which at the start of the yr this yr he was given this opportunity and played really well.

Do we have the proper player development platform here in NY? Because I want to be able to draft guys like Reggie Jackson and Jimmy Butler, and Perry Jones and Kyle Anderson type guys when they fall and have them turn into something.

One a side note looking at the 2011 draft its amazing how many players have carved out solid careers or look on the way to doing so out of this draft.

Kyrie Irving
Tristan Thompson
Jonas Valanciunas
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker
Klay Thompson
Alec Burks
Markieff Morris
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vucevic
Tobias Harris
Kenneth Faried
Reggie Jackson
Jimmy Butler
Chandler Parsons
Isaiah Thomas

honorable mention: Enes Kanter, Nikola Mirotic, Iman Shumpert, Bojan Bogdanovic
still have a chance: Corey Joseph, Marcus Morris, Donatas Motiejunas,

A lot of nice players but probably only 1 (Irving) worth tanking for.

Who said anything about tanking for those players? Also, Klay and Kawhai might be up there with Kyrie. Kyrie never displayed the ability to carry a team so maybe he is the perfect A-/B guy.

Side note: Wasn't there a big deal made about how MDA chose Shumpert and not Walsh? I could be confused though.

I was putting 2 and 2 together. If you're talking about tanking this year, it makes sense to see whether it would have paid off in the past.

Okay, I get that but what the OP seemed to be saying/asking... That there maybe a systemic issue with Ny regardless of where a player is drafted tank or not. Even if the Knicks tanked and ended up with a talented player he would still not make it.

Fair enough. I went off on a tangent!

No need to yell. j/k/

I wonder how much the medical staff and trainers come into play with development. It seems like Dolan has not wanted to change from the guys he has in place even though they seemingly do a poor job.

fishmike wrote:interesting topic. First lets get one thing out of the way. Shump hasnt panned out because he plays with Melo. That aside...

When you project these prospects to the NBA they all have holes to fills and big hurdles to overcome. Some of those are accomplished by the player mostly, others with the help of the team and support and environment etc.

I think Shump was right up there in terms of talent with those guys mentioned. Ultimately he's just not as good.

Shump has moments of great defense but is not a good defensive player. He constantly loses his man. He's a terrible offensive player. I think everyone agrees the physical tools are there but he's a stupid player without the skill set to overcome that. How do you scout that? Its the real xfactor. The fail with Shump is he just cant do anything consistently. Cant shoot, cant defend, cant create, terrible open floor player, not much of a finisher... but we have seen him get hot, play great D, throw down sick dunks.. he just cant do it enough to be a good rotation guy.

I think his destiny is on the bench somewhere where a team can afford to yank him when he stinks and ride him when hes playing well

So Melo doesn't have the ability to make Shump better

But you feel aside from Melo Shump could be better

Although you don't think Shump is all that good

I'm not sure who that's more of an indictment on

Way to J.R. "Swisher Sweet" Smith up that post

fishmike wrote:interesting topic. First lets get one thing out of the way. Shump hasnt panned out because he plays with Melo. That aside...

When you project these prospects to the NBA they all have holes to fills and big hurdles to overcome. Some of those are accomplished by the player mostly, others with the help of the team and support and environment etc.

I think Shump was right up there in terms of talent with those guys mentioned. Ultimately he's just not as good.

Shump has moments of great defense but is not a good defensive player. He constantly loses his man. He's a terrible offensive player. I think everyone agrees the physical tools are there but he's a stupid player without the skill set to overcome that. How do you scout that? Its the real xfactor. The fail with Shump is he just cant do anything consistently. Cant shoot, cant defend, cant create, terrible open floor player, not much of a finisher... but we have seen him get hot, play great D, throw down sick dunks.. he just cant do it enough to be a good rotation guy.

I think his destiny is on the bench somewhere where a team can afford to yank him when he stinks and ride him when hes playing well

You think that one is on Walsh? or just that the draft being a crap shoot? As you said all players have skills and holes and its hard to know which ones are going to cover those holes. Bigdaddys point on Shump's lack of mental toughness was a good one as well. And something that might be necessary for all NY prospects going forward.