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Can Melo Learn How Too Contribute When His Shot Is Off?
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mreinman
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12/4/2014  11:03 PM
Why do we have to live and die with his jumper? Can't he find another way to help the team and stop shooting us out of games when he is off?

Tonight's performance was disgusting!

I am really getting tired off his narcissism.

If he is on, he is amazing, if his shot is off, he is awful and gets stupider and more selfish.

Phil better kick him in the head if we are stuck with this for 5 years.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
AUTOADVERT
StarksEwing1
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12/4/2014  11:11 PM
At this point in his career...no. he is what he is.
Splat
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12/4/2014  11:12 PM
Coaching has to mitigate the bad tendencies too. Unless Melo broke ranks and went commando, there was no play run at the end. Fisher needs to put his foot down or else this becomes Woodson II.
I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
NardDogNation
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12/4/2014  11:12 PM
You can't show an old dog new tricks. He is what he is at this point. But the beauty about that is that we know exactly what we need to put around him to make his stay here worthwhile. The downside is that the players who mesh with his skillset are rare and not easily acquired. We'd literally have to find a primed Lamar Odom type that could defend the better forward at 6"11' and who could shoot (Boris Diaw might work but in a perfect world, it would be Anthony Davis). We'd also need a primed Chauncey Billups type PG that is an elite defender who can run an offense when necessary but be able to play off the ball as well. He'd need to have the gumption to waive Melo off and check him when he gets too trigger happy aka the consummate leader type. At the 5 spot, we'd need a Marc Gasol clone with better rim protection. In Phil we trust.
Splat
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12/4/2014  11:14 PM
And Woodson II is a distinct possibility. Melo just may be uncoachable. All the blah blah coming into this season, but there is little reason to believe Melo studies off the court. He punches the clock and does what he does. He doesn't give a chit.
I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
StarksEwing1
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12/4/2014  11:15 PM
NardDogNation wrote:You can't show an old dog new tricks. He is what he is at this point. But the beauty about that is that we know exactly what we need to put around him to make his stay here worthwhile. The downside is that the players who mesh with his skillset are rare and not easily acquired. We'd literally have to find a primed Lamar Odom type that could defend the better forward at 6"11' and who could shoot (Boris Diaw might work but in a perfect world, it would be Anthony Davis). We'd also need a primed Chauncey Billups type PG that is an elite defender who can run an offense when necessary but be able to play off the ball as well. He'd need to have the gumption to waive Melo off and check him when he gets too trigger happy aka the consummate leader type. At the 5 spot, we'd need a Marc Gasol clone with better rim protection. In Phil we trust.
when you give away many assets and give a flawed player 124 million its nearly impossible to acquire all that in order to make him successful
F500ONE
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12/4/2014  11:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/4/2014  11:21 PM
mreinman wrote:Why do we have to live and die with his jumper? Can't he find another way to help the team and stop shooting us out of games when he is off?

Tonight's performance was disgusting!

I am really getting tired off his narcissism.

If he is on, he is amazing, if his shot is off, he is awful and gets stupider and more selfish.

Phil better kick him in the head if we are stuck with this for 5 years.


Is this your way of coming

Out the closet of feeling it's okay to bash him


Just checking to see if this thread is based on emotion

Or something you for the first time discovered tonight


Or maybe just maybe finally fed up with his horse feces play

gunsnewing
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12/4/2014  11:17 PM
Knicks made an effort to go back to executing the triangle problem is Melo does not like system ball. It's why Dantoni had to go and replaced by Woodson. Melo is comfortable when he is dominating and pounding the ball.

He was struggling early in the season too. Once they abandoned the Triangle Melo got back to getting his 30pts

arkrud
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12/4/2014  11:19 PM
But he can drop buckets...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
mreinman
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12/4/2014  11:30 PM
F500ONE wrote:
mreinman wrote:Why do we have to live and die with his jumper? Can't he find another way to help the team and stop shooting us out of games when he is off?

Tonight's performance was disgusting!

I am really getting tired off his narcissism.

If he is on, he is amazing, if his shot is off, he is awful and gets stupider and more selfish.

Phil better kick him in the head if we are stuck with this for 5 years.


Is this your way of coming

Out the closet of feeling it's okay to bash him


Just checking to see if this thread is based on emotion

Or something you for the first time discovered tonight


Or maybe just maybe finally fed up with his horse feces play

I am not a hater or a lover. I am a frustrated fan that wants to see a very talented player play smarter. This is where I want our leadership to lead. Phil was at the game and watched this ... what will he do? He, I am sure is pissed off.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
arkrud
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12/4/2014  11:38 PM
mreinman wrote:
F500ONE wrote:
mreinman wrote:Why do we have to live and die with his jumper? Can't he find another way to help the team and stop shooting us out of games when he is off?

Tonight's performance was disgusting!

I am really getting tired off his narcissism.

If he is on, he is amazing, if his shot is off, he is awful and gets stupider and more selfish.

Phil better kick him in the head if we are stuck with this for 5 years.


Is this your way of coming

Out the closet of feeling it's okay to bash him


Just checking to see if this thread is based on emotion

Or something you for the first time discovered tonight


Or maybe just maybe finally fed up with his horse feces play

I am not a hater or a lover. I am a frustrated fan that wants to see a very talented player play smarter. This is where I want our leadership to lead. Phil was at the game and watched this ... what will he do? He, I am sure is pissed off.

Phil was fully aware what he get in Melo.
He has no choice. You are not getting 60 mils for nothing.
Zen have to compromise with the employer.
The hope dies last.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
blkexec
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12/5/2014  1:14 AM
Melo was never and will never be the type of player to carry a team. Only players that are two way, can consistently carry a team. Melo is a jump shooter, that relies on buckets to make his money. While other superstars either bring more to the table, or simply scores at a better efficiency rating.
Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
Splat
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12/5/2014  5:22 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/5/2014  5:25 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
mreinman wrote:Why do we have to live and die with his jumper? Can't he find another way to help the team and stop shooting us out of games when he is off?


Melo has survived in the NBA on raw talent and instincts. He's not a cerebral player. He can't read a defense. He can't read the floor well. It impacts his ability to move off the ball, his passing ability and how to exploit defenses who have to double team him consistently.

If Chuck Hayes ( now a Raptor, but played mostly for the Rockets) was born seven feet tall, he'd be on his way to the Hall Of Fame. H sadly only grew to about 6'4. Dude however is very smart as a player. Can read the floor, can see how an offensive set is trying to attack his team and his position, can see things happening several seconds before they actually happen. In that way, it's like playing chess. Some players can think 8 moves ahead, many players simply cannot. Hayes has about 1/1000th of Melo's talent, however he knows where to be, what to do and why it's important. Any by watching other players, seeing tendencies and seeing how he had to defend other players, Hayes picked up enough in reverse to contribute a little offensively as well. If you understand defense as a core level, you understand how they will try to stop you. Then you learn how the other team adjusts and counter adjusts to you, you learn you have to do the same on the other side of the floor.

Being a better defender makes you a better offensive player. You realize how you would try to stop yourself, and you realize that's how teams are going to come at you, and you work on how to exploit that. Move. Counter move. Just like chess.

But Melo is a low IQ gunner who could care less about defense. He can't read a defense and he appears not to care to learn how.

It's sad too, because as a natural skill set, Melo is offensively complete and absolutely offensively lethal. If he put in the hard work, he'd be unstoppable with the ball in his hands. Because he has no functional weakness in creating his own shot on a 1 vs 1 level.

The only sports comparison I can find to Melo is Manny Ramirez. Born with incredible raw talent. 10 cent head. Given enough opportunity, will default to being a jerk.

This under-utilization of his talent is at the core of so many frustrations with Melo. I don't care how virulent the personal attacks are upon him (raises hand), I don't believe I've seen anyone say he is not gifted. If there were any signs of diligence on his part towards learning how to adapt his game, I'm sure the esteem towards him would go up even amongst his harshest critics.

But he doesn't apply himself. I also don't think I've seen even his biggest supporters claim he is a serious student of the game either. He doesn't seem interested in the nuances whatsoever.

Working hard at scoring does not have the same value as working hard on expanding your skill set. Working Hard does not = Working Smart.

After 20 games, I see a growing consensus that didn't exist before. Most people now concede:

Melo is not a leader
Melo lapses into ISO ball quickly
Melo might not be coachable in a system
Melo lacks situational awareness at key moments
Melo gives above average effort on defense only occasionally

Many of those bullet points were contested actively only six weeks ago. I see many conceding the above points now.

Why is this? I think it is obvious that Melo only knows how to get fully energized if he gets to play ball in the style he is accustomed to. That means if he goes back to being given the green light and he's feeling it, he can get on a roll and think everything is working out for himself, if not the team. But if his shot stops falling, he looks lost and is usually unproductive otherwise. It inspires confidence in no one. It's no wonder the team actually looked briefly energized while Melo was out.

This team meltdown has highlighted this pattern. The argument that he is not surrounded by enough talent has been discredited. Some of this season's losses are Melo's fault too. He is as often incompetent during crunch time as he is focused. His lack of team play is catching up to him late in the games and he has looked more single-minded than ever in his approach whether it works or not.

At a certain point, the consensus will decisively shift into the last frontier of opinion and the majority of fans will finally accept that:

CHARACTER = DESTINY.

If Melo plays like a narcissist on the court, it is because he is a narcissist in general. The impact of his low character on the club is significant. Even if we lack contender talent, we could still play .500 ball if were an actual team. But we're not a team. Melo is at the heart of that and it will remain that way until a dominant personality is on the team that takes responsibility for how all of his teammates play.

So far, no coach has held Melo accountable. That seems to remain the case now with Fish. That's bad news for the Knicks.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
IronWillGiroud
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12/5/2014  6:49 AM
I think Phil Jackson and melo should drop acid together so that melo will rewire his brain to be a team player
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Splat
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12/5/2014  6:53 AM
IronWillGiroud wrote:I think Phil Jackson and melo should drop acid together so that melo will rewire his brain to be a team player

Good idea. Go on an Ayahuasca journey in the Amazon together. Come back as great warriors.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
GoNyGoNyGo
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12/5/2014  9:10 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
mreinman wrote:Why do we have to live and die with his jumper? Can't he find another way to help the team and stop shooting us out of games when he is off?


Melo has survived in the NBA on raw talent and instincts. He's not a cerebral player. He can't read a defense. He can't read the floor well. It impacts his ability to move off the ball, his passing ability and how to exploit defenses who have to double team him consistently.

If Chuck Hayes ( now a Raptor, but played mostly for the Rockets) was born seven feet tall, he'd be on his way to the Hall Of Fame. H sadly only grew to about 6'4. Dude however is very smart as a player. Can read the floor, can see how an offensive set is trying to attack his team and his position, can see things happening several seconds before they actually happen. In that way, it's like playing chess. Some players can think 8 moves ahead, many players simply cannot. Hayes has about 1/1000th of Melo's talent, however he knows where to be, what to do and why it's important. Any by watching other players, seeing tendencies and seeing how he had to defend other players, Hayes picked up enough in reverse to contribute a little offensively as well. If you understand defense as a core level, you understand how they will try to stop you. Then you learn how the other team adjusts and counter adjusts to you, you learn you have to do the same on the other side of the floor.

Being a better defender makes you a better offensive player. You realize how you would try to stop yourself, and you realize that's how teams are going to come at you, and you work on how to exploit that. Move. Counter move. Just like chess.

But Melo is a low IQ gunner who could care less about defense. He can't read a defense and he appears not to care to learn how.

It's sad too, because as a natural skill set, Melo is offensively complete and absolutely offensively lethal. If he put in the hard work, he'd be unstoppable with the ball in his hands. Because he has no functional weakness in creating his own shot on a 1 vs 1 level.

The only sports comparison I can find to Melo is Manny Ramirez. Born with incredible raw talent. 10 cent head. Given enough opportunity, will default to being a jerk.

+1

Its interesting that so many of us think the same of Melo. Great Talent, bad head. We are not involved in the league but yet we can see it...it's obvious. What bugs me is why does he always seem to get his way? Why do teams allow him to dictate the terms? I mean, Phil should have just told him to go to Chicago. Do the S&T and get 2-3 team players back like Bulter, Gibson and a draft pick. He is Phil Jackson! Why did he not see that it was addition by subtraction? I know you need a superstar...blah blah blah...well he is not a superstar and if he doesn't make his shots then what is he?

You see talent and you think you can fix his head and make it work....but a Leaopard does not change his spots and he is what he is. I think he is trying at times but he reverts to what he knows. I coach soccer and I have had some kids since they were 6-7 and now they are 16-17. Its the same thing. Some kids get it, move the ball, move yourself and the team will be successful. But some kids, have the best talent but it seems to hinder them as they think they need to do it all rather than trust their WIDE OPEN teammates! I have explained it to them in many different ways over the 10 years but some just revert back to head down and do it themselves rather than a simple give and go.....very frustrating. I think Fish and PJax know it but for 124 Million reasons, they cant do anything about it.

SwishAndDish13
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12/5/2014  10:03 AM
[/quote]


Melo has survived in the NBA on raw talent and instincts. He's not a cerebral player. He can't read a defense. He can't read the floor well. It impacts his ability to move off the ball, his passing ability and how to exploit defenses who have to double team him consistently.

If Chuck Hayes ( now a Raptor, but played mostly for the Rockets) was born seven feet tall, he'd be on his way to the Hall Of Fame. H sadly only grew to about 6'4. Dude however is very smart as a player. Can read the floor, can see how an offensive set is trying to attack his team and his position, can see things happening several seconds before they actually happen. In that way, it's like playing chess. Some players can think 8 moves ahead, many players simply cannot. Hayes has about 1/1000th of Melo's talent, however he knows where to be, what to do and why it's important. Any by watching other players, seeing tendencies and seeing how he had to defend other players, Hayes picked up enough in reverse to contribute a little offensively as well. If you understand defense as a core level, you understand how they will try to stop you. Then you learn how the other team adjusts and counter adjusts to you, you learn you have to do the same on the other side of the floor.

Being a better defender makes you a better offensive player. You realize how you would try to stop yourself, and you realize that's how teams are going to come at you, and you work on how to exploit that. Move. Counter move. Just like chess.

But Melo is a low IQ gunner who could care less about defense. He can't read a defense and he appears not to care to learn how.

It's sad too, because as a natural skill set, Melo is offensively complete and absolutely offensively lethal. If he put in the hard work, he'd be unstoppable with the ball in his hands. Because he has no functional weakness in creating his own shot on a 1 vs 1 level.

The only sports comparison I can find to Melo is Manny Ramirez. Born with incredible raw talent. 10 cent head. Given enough opportunity, will default to being a jerk.
[/quote]

+1

Its interesting that so many of us think the same of Melo. Great Talent, bad head. We are not involved in the league but yet we can see it...it's obvious. What bugs me is why does he always seem to get his way? Why do teams allow him to dictate the terms? I mean, Phil should have just told him to go to Chicago. Do the S&T and get 2-3 team players back like Bulter, Gibson and a draft pick. He is Phil Jackson! Why did he not see that it was addition by subtraction? I know you need a superstar...blah blah blah...well he is not a superstar and if he doesn't make his shots then what is he?

You see talent and you think you can fix his head and make it work....but a Leaopard does not change his spots and he is what he is. I think he is trying at times but he reverts to what he knows. I coach soccer and I have had some kids since they were 6-7 and now they are 16-17. Its the same thing. Some kids get it, move the ball, move yourself and the team will be successful. But some kids, have the best talent but it seems to hinder them as they think they need to do it all rather than trust their WIDE OPEN teammates! I have explained it to them in many different ways over the 10 years but some just revert back to head down and do it themselves rather than a simple give and go.....very frustrating. I think Fish and PJax know it but for 124 Million reasons, they cant do anything about it.
[/quote]

I would tend to agree with this. However, I don't think you should expect anything that resembles team ball from this tank squad. Amare does the same thing. They are both low IQ players. I do think Melo has improved at aspects of his game (a sign of hope), but the roster is really bad so it is hard to judge. How is a good option to give the ball to on this team? They'll miss anyway so I'd rather get my own stats. Can't really blame him. Although, I'd personally love to watch someone like Shump airmail another wide open 3. I am concerned with bad habits for when (if) we build a credible roster.

mreinman
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12/11/2014  8:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/11/2014  8:00 PM
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
I would tend to agree with this. However, I don't think you should expect anything that resembles team ball from this tank squad. Amare does the same thing. They are both low IQ players. I do think Melo has improved at aspects of his game (a sign of hope), but the roster is really bad so it is hard to judge. How is a good option to give the ball to on this team? They'll miss anyway so I'd rather get my own stats. Can't really blame him. Although, I'd personally love to watch someone like Shump airmail another wide open 3. I am concerned with bad habits for when (if) we build a credible roster.

you were still half blaming and avoiding here

so here is what phil is thinking ....
CrushAlot
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12/11/2014  8:05 PM
He is going to need his teammates' shots not to be off if it is going to end up in a win.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
mreinman
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12/11/2014  8:06 PM
CrushAlot wrote:He is going to need his teammates' shots not to be off if it is going to end up in a win.

I think that the team will need his shot to be on and him to pass as well, no?

how is he shooting?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Can Melo Learn How Too Contribute When His Shot Is Off?

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