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NYKBocker
Posts: 38420 Alba Posts: 474 Joined: 1/14/2003 Member: #377 USA |
7/25/2014 3:20 PM
I agree except I want Shump instead of JR Smith.
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callmened
Posts: 24448 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 5/26/2012 Member: #4234 |
7/25/2014 3:54 PM
OMG...stop with bargnani. LOL. hes not a good player. Yes i can acknowledge his offensive skills. but hes absolutely lost on defense. If his offense was far above average (i.e. melo or prime stat), then i could tolerate his mediocre defense. but its not. in the meantime, bargs should be "hidden" on the 2nd team (or even the bench) so that he wont be exposed on defense
Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
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newyorknewyork
Posts: 30167 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 1/16/2004 Member: #541 |
7/25/2014 4:30 PM
callmened wrote:OMG...stop with bargnani. LOL. hes not a good player. Yes i can acknowledge his offensive skills. but hes absolutely lost on defense. If his offense was far above average (i.e. melo or prime stat), then i could tolerate his mediocre defense. but its not. in the meantime, bargs should be "hidden" on the 2nd team (or even the bench) so that he wont be exposed on defense You would have the same problems with Stat in the starting lineup and if you have Dalembert or Cole they aren't strong enough defenders to cover for everyone else anyway and there offensive games would just limit the offense. Bargnani got the nod over Stat because he at this moment is the better shot blocker. I figure he and Smith could offer shot blocking and spacing as a duo. https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
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H1AND1
Posts: 21747 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 9/9/2013 Member: #5648 |
7/25/2014 4:30 PM
callmened wrote:OMG...stop with bargnani. LOL. hes not a good player. Yes i can acknowledge his offensive skills. but hes absolutely lost on defense. If his offense was far above average (i.e. melo or prime stat), then i could tolerate his mediocre defense. but its not. in the meantime, bargs should be "hidden" on the 2nd team (or even the bench) so that he wont be exposed on defense Hate to say it but I agree 100%. Bargs is a huge net negative until he puts up sustained good offensive numbers over a large number of games (as in, a season!). Except for that stretch of 17 games where he shot the ball well last season he has pretty much been putrid on offense for the past 4 years! That's a trend and the realty is players rarely just snap out of years long skids like that. It's more likely he is simply not ever going to be a meaningful nba player ever again than that he'll all of a sudden he a major contributor next season as a Knick. Bargs isn't even a great shooter overall and is a horrible rebounded for his size/ position to boot. |
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
7/25/2014 4:34 PM
callmened wrote:OMG...stop with bargnani. LOL. hes not a good player. Yes i can acknowledge his offensive skills. but hes absolutely lost on defense. If his offense was far above average (i.e. melo or prime stat), then i could tolerate his mediocre defense. but its not. in the meantime, bargs should be "hidden" on the 2nd team (or even the bench) so that he wont be exposed on defense Just so you know that you DON'T know what you're talking about. It's more about how you use Bargs than that he just can't play. Bargnani was part of 2 of our better producing lineups last year. The question is why didn't we run those lineups more last year as opposed to the ones that clearly didn't work? It wasn't so much Bargs as it was Woodson not checking his own teams stats to see what was working and what wasn't. Woody stubbornly trottd out lineups that SUCKED!!!
Bargs and Chandler together didn't work. It makes no sense that Woody played that lineup the 7th most minutes, given how bad it looked. Felton, THJ, JR and STAT was HORRENDOUS.
Why did Woody have trot out so many crazy lineups that clearly didn't work when he had evidence of the ones that DID WORK? It's easy to just blame Bargs, but really it's imperative that a COACH puts his players in the best position to succeed. Clearly Woody didn't do that. He made things worse with his indecisive lineup changes. This is why it is in fact possible for Fish to get more out of Bargs than we saw last year. |
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Sangfroid
Posts: 24681 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/7/2009 Member: #2784 |
7/25/2014 4:37 PM
H1AND1 wrote:callmened wrote:OMG...stop with bargnani. LOL. hes not a good player. Yes i can acknowledge his offensive skills. but hes absolutely lost on defense. If his offense was far above average (i.e. melo or prime stat), then i could tolerate his mediocre defense. but its not. in the meantime, bargs should be "hidden" on the 2nd team (or even the bench) so that he wont be exposed on defense From what we saw from Bargs last season, he was a capable shooter once he warmed up. The problem was the distance that the Woodson offensive schemes ( "We are playing a game. We are playing at not playing a game..."
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) placed him, and the him being frozen out by the PG (
) Felton. He deserves a shot in the triangle before he is buried away in Knick lore.|
arkrud
Posts: 32217 Alba Posts: 7 Joined: 8/31/2005 Member: #995 USA |
7/25/2014 4:38 PM
Defense... what defense...
To win some games this team must outscore other team. There is no other way... If Bargs can score play him and may be he can trip somebody out by mistake. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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arkrud
Posts: 32217 Alba Posts: 7 Joined: 8/31/2005 Member: #995 USA |
7/25/2014 4:41 PM
nixluva wrote:callmened wrote:OMG...stop with bargnani. LOL. hes not a good player. Yes i can acknowledge his offensive skills. but hes absolutely lost on defense. If his offense was far above average (i.e. melo or prime stat), then i could tolerate his mediocre defense. but its not. in the meantime, bargs should be "hidden" on the 2nd team (or even the bench) so that he wont be exposed on defense Pure genius: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
7/25/2014 4:50 PM
arkrud wrote:nixluva wrote:callmened wrote:OMG...stop with bargnani. LOL. hes not a good player. Yes i can acknowledge his offensive skills. but hes absolutely lost on defense. If his offense was far above average (i.e. melo or prime stat), then i could tolerate his mediocre defense. but its not. in the meantime, bargs should be "hidden" on the 2nd team (or even the bench) so that he wont be exposed on defense When Phil was talking about the Knicks being clumsy he could see how certain lineups just didn't work and made no sense. Woody didn't have such clear vision. He had some lineups that were so putrid that they should NEVER have seen the court in a real game. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH COMMON BASKETBALL SENSE TO KNOW THAT YOU DON'T PUT BARGNANI AND STAT IN THE SAME LINEUP... |
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tj23
Posts: 21851 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 4/20/2010 Member: #3119 |
7/26/2014 2:19 AM
Bargnani needs to change his entire game. Terrible chucker from 3, awful turnovers, wild shots, poor numbers on the boards, and the guy is one of the worst help defenders i've ever seen. I actually liked the pick up when we acquired him but after last season I have very little faith in this guy. The only thing he's really got going for him is an excellent mid range game but all of his other negatives vastly outweigh any positive impact he has. FishyPhil has a big project on their hands, and it's not like he's a young player who can be easily groomed. Any lineup we had success with didn't benefit because of AB being in it.
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Cartman718
Posts: 29069 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/12/2007 Member: #1694 |
7/26/2014 8:44 AM
nixluva wrote:When Phil was talking about the Knicks being clumsy he could see how certain lineups just didn't work and made no sense. Woody didn't have such clear vision. He had some lineups that were so putrid that they should NEVER have seen the court in a real game. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH COMMON BASKETBALL SENSE TO KNOW THAT YOU DON'T PUT BARGNANI AND STAT IN THE SAME LINEUP... agree with you completely. interestingly in the top 10, melo-chandler frontcourt worked well. i'd expect melo to play SF this year. this would mean we cannot reference the insight you pasted to build upon it. Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL
So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
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babyKnicks
Posts: 22486 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/31/2006 Member: #1191 USA |
7/26/2014 8:49 AM
I see dalembert starting and bargs and amare battling for the 4 spot.
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
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callmened
Posts: 24448 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 5/26/2012 Member: #4234 |
7/26/2014 9:52 AM LAST EDITED: 7/26/2014 9:54 AM
@nixluva...you know i respect your posts and insight but im sorry, i cannot agree regarding bargani..no need to insult me ("Just so you know that you DON'T know what you're talking about.")
1. you use stats for your argument for the best lineup. Im not a big stats guy when it comes to basketball (too many moving parts. stats are better for sports like baseball where you can analyze "repeated events" consistently - like at bats. stats are useful for basketball but i dont rely on them. all those +/- stats just tell me was the score difference. it doesn't acknoweldge, WHO they played, HOW they played, HOW they were coached, WHO they were guarding, WHO was guarding them, WHAT defense was being played, WHEN they scored, WHY they scored, etc etc). too many confounding variables to rely on stats in basketball. baseball has less moving parts 2. was Bargnani misused last yr? probably. but it still doesnt change the fact that he just isnt a good player. will he be used better this yr, i think/hope so. but it still doesnt change the fact that he just isnt a good player 3. i will never deny that bargnani knows how to score. I think his game would be perfect for the high pinch post and the mid range jumper. I also think hell be great setting picks and coming off of picks. its his LACK OF DEFENSE that im worried about. besides one on one post defense vs centers (like hibbert and dwight), bargs is a horrible defender and rebounder. that is why i cringe at him getting mins 4. Im looking forward to Jason smith getting those minutes. why? more defensive presence and better rebounder. I think he has a nice mid range game but hes not the offensive threat like bargnani overall - this team has WAY TOO many one dimensional players (including melo) which is why its flawed. I think you can make up for this with BALANCE (ie playing defensive players with offensive players). and yes, thats why to dont paid amare and bargnani together - one just doesnt understand defense, the other is allergic to it. Bargnani isnt good on defense (PERIOD) but he has offensive talent. so use him to score but also hide his defensive deficiencies by playing him vs 2nd stringers who arent as good offensively (especially big men). Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
7/26/2014 12:44 PM
callmened wrote:@nixluva...you know i respect your posts and insight but im sorry, i cannot agree regarding bargani..no need to insult me ("Just so you know that you DON'T know what you're talking about.") I will say it again if you refuse to come up with something that is more concrete than how you may feel. The fact is that I showed you Bargnani was indeed capable of being part of our most productive lineups and thus he wasn't detrimental to us winning if used properly.
The top 2 lineups that Woody played the most minutes weren't even our best lineups!!! For major minutes from last year Bargs was in lineups that were PLUS and that means winning!!! I chose this stat because it's really basic and tells us a lot. It's saying what happened when these certain lineups were on the floor over the course of the season. Two of our top lineups were with Bargs on the floor at Center!!! This just tells us that these lineups should've been used more. So despite how you may feel, the truth is that Woody failed to avoid lineups that were less productive given the players flaws. I'm not saying that Bargs is a perfect player. I'm merely saying that he can be a productive player for this team when used properly. You and many others are blaming Bargs and it may not be that he's the reason the team was losing. This breaks down just what was really happening when he was on the floor so you can't mistake him for being THE reason the team was losing. IMO those stats that say the team was Minus this or that when Bargnani was on the court are only saying one thing, but you don't learn who else was on the court with him when that poor play was happening. So it seems easy to just blame him. My contention is that you can't put him on the floor with certain players. It's the same with STAT. Udrih was really bad last year in certain lineups. There's a lot more to the equation than just Bargs. |
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callmened
Posts: 24448 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 5/26/2012 Member: #4234 |
7/26/2014 2:18 PM LAST EDITED: 7/26/2014 2:23 PM
1. just because you use stats doesnt make your argument concrete. For the confounding factors, i mentioned, id argue they make things less concrete
2. I think we both agree that its all about HOW bargnani is used. last yr he was used poorly i agree. i cant defend woody or the lineups he used 3. i think bargnani can help a team, hes too skilled offensively however i also have to acknowledge that hes awful defensively. Now maybe a lineup can work where he comes off the bench. i think hed be better used defending lesser offensive talent than defensive ones 4. I refuse to blame bargnani for why the team lost. hes not significant enough to blame for any team's fate on him. the team lost for several reasons but hes far down the list. so please dont put me in that category of blaming bargnani for the bad season. all i can say was that it was a stupid trade giving up those picks. thats not his fault though. bargnani can be used...and at $11 million he probably should be. my point is that - i think he could be best used off the bench. 5. i also think STAT should be off the bench for the same reason. all offense & NO defense! but i agree, just dont pair him with bargnani some how 6. You gave a perfect example of Udrih. was/is he a bad player? NOPE. he was just used incorrectly. What was his +/-? i dont know?!!? all i know is when he was on memphis he helped them alot Overall = i value defensive players over offensive players (especially when our best offensive player is so lazy on defense). Shumpert is a horrible offensive player but i value his defense, therefore he should start. Hardaway is going to be a great offensive player but until he learns defense (challenging shots), he shouldnt start. good teams set the tone DEFENSIVELY FIRST, then they can bring offensive sparkplugs off the bench. now thats my opinion...is it fact? right? wrong? nope. just an opinion Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
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H1AND1
Posts: 21747 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 9/9/2013 Member: #5648 |
7/26/2014 2:30 PM
tj23 wrote:Bargnani needs to change his entire game. Terrible chucker from 3, awful turnovers, wild shots, poor numbers on the boards, and the guy is one of the worst help defenders i've ever seen. I actually liked the pick up when we acquired him but after last season I have very little faith in this guy. The only thing he's really got going for him is an excellent mid range game but all of his other negatives vastly outweigh any positive impact he has. FishyPhil has a big project on their hands, and it's not like he's a young player who can be easily groomed. Any lineup we had success with didn't benefit because of AB being in it. You hit the nail on the head. |
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Bonn1997
Posts: 58654 Alba Posts: 2 Joined: 2/2/2004 Member: #581 USA |
7/26/2014 2:38 PM
I love it!
We have our own draft pick this year! |
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nyvector16
Posts: 21324 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/9/2001 Member: #130 USA |
7/26/2014 2:41 PM LAST EDITED: 7/26/2014 2:42 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:I love it! Besides 2 summers from now (Bargnani trade) we have all our 1st round picks going forward. Not to mention they traded the 1st rounder that turned into Lillard for a washed-up Gerald Wallace!!! ROFL |