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Melo era: chapter 2
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EnySpree
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7/12/2014  8:14 PM
What's next?

The triangle is here.

Probable starting 5 is Amare, Melo, Dalembert, Calderón and Jr Smith

we have good youth on the bench....

how do we use the exemptions?

Speak on it

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RonRon
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7/12/2014  8:53 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/12/2014  9:00 PM
Plan A
=========

Lebron CAN OPT out after this season, we can offer a near max extension if we can recruit him
Can Carmelo Anthony/Phil Jackson/ The Triangle/ and our YOUNG players/ BRIGHT LIGHTS attract him?
BFF, with their children could help, in addition to the chances of even GREATER endorsements if they could bring Championships to NYK

Plan B
==========

could be Kevin Love

or

Rhondo/Marc Gasol, who I don't think are actually "WORTH" max contracts for their next contracts but are still good players

Plan C
=============

could be depth with combinations

Dragic/Parker
Ginobili/Gereld Green
Thad Young/Jeff Green
Asik/DeAndre Jordan/Hibbert/Vareajo

a return of LIN at a Raymond Felton type of friendly contract???

Possible Trades
======================

Bledsoe
We also have quite a few young players as assets and fill ins as expirings to upgrade talents in the trade deadline, in addition to the draft rights of next summers 1st round draft rights on DRAFT NIGHT to trade
Bledsoe would be a strong PG though not sure if he would "fit" the triangle to it's full strength
Though he could be slightly overpaid at a near max contract, his potential on OFFENSE/DEFENSE because of his athleticism/strength/ability to penetrate would fit greatly with Calderon's ability to facilitate/shoot

We have too many players and need to dilute some rosters, some can raise in value due to a new system basketball, some could be part of our future plans at the right price
AB, Tyler, STAT, Cole Aldrich, Dalembert, possibly JR/Iman/Ellington and in addition to our young talents in Tim Hardaway JR/Early/Thiannis/Larkin/2015 1st round pick

Tyler needed to get in better shape and continue his development in addition to his potential that he showed flashes on
However, Cole Alrich has shown his value and consistency, while Tyler has yet to show his WORK ETHIC/DEVELOPMENT to his "potential"

EnySpree
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7/13/2014  1:12 PM
I only agree with that last paragraph Ron Ron.....
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EnySpree
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7/13/2014  1:13 PM
Anybody have any realistic ways we can improve this off season and beyond?
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CrushAlot
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7/13/2014  1:19 PM
EnySpree wrote:Anybody have any realistic ways we can improve this off season and beyond?
I think the team has already improved a lot. I do think Jax will explore trades to lighten the log jam at two guard and also to move Amare. I think he wants to see what he has in Bargs and likes him in the triangle. The Knicks probably aren't big players this offseason but I think Jax is opportunistic and minimally makes some small additions.
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smackeddog
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7/13/2014  1:21 PM
I don't think we do much else this offseason. Next offseason I guess Phil wants Marc Gasol, however Marc Gasol seems to love Memphis and said he wants to stay their. It's going to be very hard, but you never know what can happen.
toodarkmark
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7/13/2014  1:22 PM
I really think they can improve psychologically, and build something this season. Although another special player gets them to the next level, changing the culture and surrounding Melo with players and system that works can get them into contention.
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Nalod
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7/13/2014  1:36 PM
EnySpree wrote:Anybody have any realistic ways we can improve this off season and beyond?

Wasn't Ron Ron real real istic?

H1AND1
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7/13/2014  1:36 PM
RonRon wrote:Plan A
=========

Lebron CAN OPT out after this season, we can offer a near max extension if we can recruit him
Can Carmelo Anthony/Phil Jackson/ The Triangle/ and our YOUNG players/ BRIGHT LIGHTS attract him?
BFF, with their children could help, in addition to the chances of even GREATER endorsements if they could bring Championships to NYK

Plan B
==========

could be Kevin Love

or

Rhondo/Marc Gasol, who I don't think are actually "WORTH" max contracts for their next contracts but are still good players

Plan C
=============

could be depth with combinations

Dragic/Parker
Ginobili/Gereld Green
Thad Young/Jeff Green
Asik/DeAndre Jordan/Hibbert/Vareajo

a return of LIN at a Raymond Felton type of friendly contract???

Possible Trades
======================

Bledsoe
We also have quite a few young players as assets and fill ins as expirings to upgrade talents in the trade deadline, in addition to the draft rights of next summers 1st round draft rights on DRAFT NIGHT to trade
Bledsoe would be a strong PG though not sure if he would "fit" the triangle to it's full strength
Though he could be slightly overpaid at a near max contract, his potential on OFFENSE/DEFENSE because of his athleticism/strength/ability to penetrate would fit greatly with Calderon's ability to facilitate/shoot

We have too many players and need to dilute some rosters, some can raise in value due to a new system basketball, some could be part of our future plans at the right price
AB, Tyler, STAT, Cole Aldrich, Dalembert, possibly JR/Iman/Ellington and in addition to our young talents in Tim Hardaway JR/Early/Thiannis/Larkin/2015 1st round pick

Tyler needed to get in better shape and continue his development in addition to his potential that he showed flashes on
However, Cole Alrich has shown his value and consistency, while Tyler has yet to show his WORK ETHIC/DEVELOPMENT to his "potential"

If Lebron was coming here why would he make a huge hullabaloo about going home only to ditch them again after one year? He'd come off even worse than before. Not gonna happen.

EnySpree
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7/13/2014  2:17 PM
Nalod wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Anybody have any realistic ways we can improve this off season and beyond?

Wasn't Ron Ron real real istic?

We can't be in the business of what ifs waiting for stars to decide if they wanna come here every of season. We have to maintain cap flexibility but we can't put every season on hold hoping someone comes

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Anji
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7/13/2014  2:27 PM
There Is No Turning Back Now
Carmelo Anthony, the Triangle Offense, and the Art of What Comes Next for the New York Knicks.

After days — really, on some level, months — of speculation about the future of the Knicks’ relationship with Carmelo Anthony, after reading smoke signals from his camp and the camp of any other free agent whose decision seemed like it might have an impact on Melo’s, after analyzing cap situations and potential sign-and-trade pieces in Texas and California and Illinois and Florida, after denial and frustration and acceptance and equal measures of anticipation and angst at the prospect of starting from scratch; after all of those things, the Knicks and their fans now find themselves back where they started: with a great scorer and a high payroll and the sincere hope that they can find a way to make it all work.

Carmelo Anthony is coming back to the Knicks.

He is theirs and they are his, for better or for worse, for richer and for cap poorer. And like any marriage, when the pomp and romance and celebration of the reception ends, the truly beautiful and difficult part begins: the act of learning to live and flourish together despite their flaws. In the Knicks’ and Melo’s case, their potentially incongruous parts make the union imperfect to objective eyes, yet oddly perfect for one another.


For Carmelo, moving forward means a new coach and system, a roster in transition, and a fan base that will expect not only leadership and patience in the season to come, but also some affirmation of Anthony’s commitment to the franchise. Many are now left with the distinct impression that his free agency tour ended with a somewhat reluctant return to Gotham — even if there is no direct evidence to substantiate that sentiment.

For the Knicks, the task at hand is largely no simpler, nor more complex than it was when ‘Melo first arrived in that now-infamous trade from the Denver Nuggets back in 2011. New York must (again) construct a championship-caliber roster that relies on a centerpiece whose past deficiencies are as notorious as his considerable gifts are undeniable. Tempting though it might be to say that New York would have been better off protecting its financial and roster flexibility — cliché though it is to suggest that a Melo-led team absolutely cannot win a title — Anthony’s retention was the most prudent available option for a franchise whose recurrent and compounding mistakes had completely blocked all less crooked paths to glory.


Even the naysayers — and there are many of them — will be hard-pressed to refute Anthony’s fit within Phil Jackson’s paradigm. The Zen Master’s approach to building a winner will begin with his system, the battle-tested triangle offense. And triangle teams rely on the presence of one dynamic, versatile wing scorer.

The Knicks could have all the cap room in the world for the next 10 summers, and they still might not be able to acquire a player who fits that role better than Anthony.
Consider this: after shooting just 31 percent from three-point range in seven-plus seasons as a Nugget, Carmelo’s efficiency from downtown has skyrocketed. He’s hit his triples at a 38.5 percent clip as a Knick, and his 40.2 percent mark in 2013-14 was the best of his career. He has adjusted his shot selection accordingly, too, attempting over 400 threes in each of his last two seasons after never taking more than 214 in a season in Denver.

Accordingly, the shift of Carmelo’s heat map from the super-inefficient long-two-point range to beyond the arc has not only made him a more efficient scorer, it should (theoretically) reap team-wide benefits in an offensive system that relies heavily on good spacing. That teams need to respect Melo 25 feet from the rim should create scoring opportunities for shooters and slashers alike; that he can also punish defenses off the dribble and in the post should make New York’s offense particularly tough to defend. That is, if Jackson can surround Anthony with the proper teammates.


The triple-threat wing — ‘Melo’s role — is one of two integral components of the triangle offense. The other is a versatile post presence who can pass. As presently constituted, the Knicks have no such player and — with Pau Gasol’s reported signing with Chicago on Saturday — will almost certainly not be able to acquire one before the upcoming season, given their salary cap woes.

Luckily for Jackson and Anthony, however, Pau’s younger brother, Marc, is set to hit unrestricted free agency in next summer. Coincidentally, the Knicks figure to have ample cap space after the expiration of Amar’e Stoudemire’s and Andrea Bargnani’s debilitating contracts. And Marc Gasol, 30 years old and with a game that should age quite well, might fit the prototypical mold of a triangle big better than any other in-prime player in the league.

Complicating matters — because: Knicks — is the fact that Memphis will be able to offer Gasol a more lucrative contract than any other franchise in the league. There’s absolutely no way of knowing whether Gasol will have any interest in rolling the dice on leaving for a less-established Knicks team to play with a star who has a reputation for selfishness, but should the Spaniard be amenable to New York, he should be the Jackson’s Plan A. (Kevin Love, currently slated to be a free agent in 2015, would be an ideal fit for this role as well, too — at least on offense — but it seems far more likely that he will be traded and signed to a long-term deal before the Knicks would have a chance to land him.)

Gasol’s passing, mid-range game, and ability to command a double-team in the post fit the triangle perfectly and complement Melo’s greatest strengths, while his rim protection and defensive savvy protect against Melo’s worst habits.
With Anthony and Gasol, the Knicks would likely have to commit $40 million or so to just two players, but the pair would be ideal matches both for one another and in collectively fulfilling the most important system roles for Derek Fisher.

The beauty of the triangle lies largely in allowing for teams to be top-heavy as long as the players brought in to support its stars properly fit the roles they’re assigned. For example, the system de-emphasizes the need for a star point guard who can engineer the offense off the dribble. In the triangle, the point guard serves as more of a conduit, camping at the top of the key as a release valve, looking to shoot open threes when available or switch the play to attack over-shifted defenses.

Newly-acquired point guard Jose Calderon should fit that role nicely. He’s better than a 40-percent three-point shooter for his career and, as traditional point guard skills go, he’s far more accomplished as a passer than a dribble-penetrator. Calderon will 34 by the time the Knicks could sign Gasol, but the limited need for athleticism from a triangle point guard should hide his advancing years fairly well; anyone who doubts that should look to the example of his new coach, who manned that post in Los Angeles well into his thirties. But whether Calderon ages well or not is secondary to the more general benefit of the system — namely, that in a league with an unprecedented supply of explosiveness at the 1, floor generals whose value derives more from minimizing mistakes and hitting open looks can be had at a bargain.

Similarly, the presence of Melo and Gasol would greatly mitigate the need for the Knicks to look for an additional star on the wing. The triangle offense would place such heavy playmaking emphasis on those two players that the Knicks need only look for wings who can hit open looks and defend to fill out their rotation.

One of the main beneficiaries of the new system in New York stands to be Iman Shumpert. The Knicks have spent three years changing their mind about precisely what he is, but, given their current offense and personnel, they can abandon their misguided intentions to turn him into a point guard or a slasher and try to help him develop into a more consistent deep threat.

Two 2014 draft picks — Cleanthony Early and Thanasis Antetekounmpo — project to be a shooter and a wing defender, respectively. In the best-case scenario, Early’s ceiling could even see him develop into something of a mini-Melo who could take on increased minutes as the strong-side wing as he develops and Melo ages.

On the interior, New York will be priced out of the bidding for high-flyers and additional post scorers, but should be able to beef up their rotation with rebounders and defenders who can play the potentially low-usage weak-side post role in the triangle while contributing in the areas that their skill sets suggest. In Cole Aldrich, Jeremy Tyler, and Samuel Dalembert, the Knicks already have a handful of guys who could fill those roles. But, again, the larger point is that these player types tend to come fairly cheap, which great news for a team whose best option is to use nearly two-thirds of the salary cap on two players.

J.R. Smith is a wild card, but at his best, he also could prove to be a significant asset in the triangle. His primary job should be to sit either in the strong-side corner or on the weak-side wing and wait for the offense to produce good long-range looks for him. But, given that Melo can’t play 48 minutes, he could also see a couple of shifts per night as the team’s primary perimeter threat, with the hope that could be enough to sate his appetite for ball-domination in a role that actually suits his skills fairly well.

If all of this seems a bit starry-eyed, that’s really fine. The last and best part of the deal for New York is that the player they just retained is one who commanded interest from nearly every team that had cap space and for whom he expressed some willingness to play. This isn’t Amar’e Stoudemire and his uninsurable knees, or Andrea Bargnani, Allan Houston, Eddy Curry, or any of a handful of other players for whom the Knicks essentially bid against themselves.

Anthony is a gifted offensive talent who has been better than ever in the past two years. He is a legitimately valuable asset at any price, and his game relies on his skill, power, and smarts more than his quickness or vertical leap, all of which is to say that he’s likely to retain his value into his mid-thirties better than most elite wings. Barring injury, there should be contenders willing to trade assets for Anthony in seven months (if utter disaster strikes) or 18 months (if New York fails to complement Anthony with another star player and wants to start from scratch) or 30 months (if things simply aren’t working, and both player and team agree that it would be best to part ways). Even if the return in such a deal was underwhelming, it’s better to take a shot at the plan succeeding, knowing you can get something if it fails, than it would have been to let Carmelo walk for nothing this summer.

And, really, that’s what makes Melo and the Knicks so perfect for one another. They’re both taking calculated risks here — risks that New York’s youngsters will develop and that its system will work and that it will have better luck in the coming summers than it did the last time it had cap room to use. They both likely wish they could have done better than they did, but both realized they simply couldn’t. Now their interests are almost perfectly aligned. The circumstances (read: on-court failure) that would lead to Melo wanting out are largely the same ones that would make it wise for the Knicks to trade him.

There’s no more speculation, posturing, leverage, or negotiation. Melo and the Knicks are in this together. Now it’s time to see if it can work.

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/e947804d344

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meloshouldgo
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7/13/2014  2:31 PM
I am really afraid of what will happen if Melo gets injured. We couldn't even make the plaoyffs on his best season. If he gets hurt or misses a season we will be the worst team in the league.

So I would focus on maximizing what we can get thru the draft so we can create a team the Melo's new contact won't allow us to buy. Draft well and often. Not once every two or three years.

We should not try to win now like the last 4 years. We should build a Contending team from the ground up. I am really not interested in trading for any stars. Just get solid quality two way players that are hungry to compete and play around Melo

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
smackeddog
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7/13/2014  2:47 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:I am really afraid of what will happen if Melo gets injured. We couldn't even make the plaoyffs on his best season. If he gets hurt or misses a season we will be the worst team in the league.

So I would focus on maximizing what we can get thru the draft so we can create a team the Melo's new contact won't allow us to buy. Draft well and often. Not once every two or three years.

We should not try to win now like the last 4 years. We should build a Contending team from the ground up. I am really not interested in trading for any stars. Just get solid quality two way players that are hungry to compete and play around Melo

Remember the cba is up in 2017 so they may add another amnesty provision then.

StarksEwing1
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7/13/2014  2:48 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:I am really afraid of what will happen if Melo gets injured. We couldn't even make the plaoyffs on his best season. If he gets hurt or misses a season we will be the worst team in the league.

So I would focus on maximizing what we can get thru the draft so we can create a team the Melo's new contact won't allow us to buy. Draft well and often. Not once every two or three years.

We should not try to win now like the last 4 years. We should build a Contending team from the ground up. I am really not interested in trading for any stars. Just get solid quality two way players that are hungry to compete and play around Melo

Injury is a risk for any player makig a lot of money but it does get scarier when tehy are in tehir 30's. hopefully it wont happen to melo at leats until his last year
dk7th
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7/13/2014  3:11 PM
so basically the article is saying that the plan is based on acquiring marc gasol and that we needn't concern ourselves with melo breaking down.

yay

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
meloshouldgo
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7/13/2014  6:03 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:I am really afraid of what will happen if Melo gets injured. We couldn't even make the plaoyffs on his best season. If he gets hurt or misses a season we will be the worst team in the league.

So I would focus on maximizing what we can get thru the draft so we can create a team the Melo's new contact won't allow us to buy. Draft well and often. Not once every two or three years.

We should not try to win now like the last 4 years. We should build a Contending team from the ground up. I am really not interested in trading for any stars. Just get solid quality two way players that are hungry to compete and play around Melo

Injury is a risk for any player makig a lot of money but it does get scarier when tehy are in tehir 30's. hopefully it wont happen to melo at leats until his last year

I am especially scared because they mentioned a no-trade clause. I mean all he has to do is hot a fire extinguisher on the way out and we are basically screwed for 5 years!!!

Well to be fair. We are basically screwed anyways.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
EnySpree
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7/13/2014  8:49 PM
You guys suck
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CrushAlot
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7/13/2014  10:00 PM
dk7th wrote:so basically the article is saying that the plan is based on acquiring marc gasol and that we needn't concern ourselves with melo breaking down.

yay

He is a legitimately valuable asset at any price, and his game relies on his skill, power, and smarts more than his quickness or vertical leap, all of which is to say that he’s likely to retain his value into his mid-thirties better than most elite wings
Interesting take. Did you miss this?
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nixluva
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7/13/2014  10:38 PM
Those who are taking the scared and naysayer angle on this need to keep one thing in mind, Phil Jackson is saying that he believes in Melo in this system. If he didn't think Melo would thrive in the Triangle there's no way he'd risk his reputation on him like this. One thing about Phil is that he wants to win and won't mess around with a player who he doesn't believe in. So all the things this article covers are true and most likely how Phil sees things based on his moves so far.

Playing in the Triangle and trusting your teammates takes pressure off the top player. That can help with health and longevity. It will also save Melo for the end of games when we need him to step up, whereas Woody wore him out early in games and Melo had nothing left and was getting injured. There's a method to the madness of Phil and eventually doubters will see that.

dk7th
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7/13/2014  11:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/13/2014  11:06 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:so basically the article is saying that the plan is based on acquiring marc gasol and that we needn't concern ourselves with melo breaking down.

yay

He is a legitimately valuable asset at any price, and his game relies on his skill, power, and smarts more than his quickness or vertical leap, all of which is to say that he’s likely to retain his value into his mid-thirties better than most elite wings
Interesting take. Did you miss this?

first of all his footwork is vastly overrated. that first step will be increasingly harder to summon now that he is 30.

second of all he is dumb not smart. smart players don't take dumb shots.

third "power" means "leading with the shoulders and initiating contact."

and that means shouldergate.

he becomes the invisible man in the playoffs because he never elevates his game against playoff competition.

we are paying max money for a regular season jv superstar that everyone is praying will be able to conform himself to a system.

i will believe it when i see it-- meanwhile he will always be a one-way player no matter how much he gets paid.

he will need to earn my respect as a knick fan.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Melo era: chapter 2

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