when you are not competing... you have to tank.

Knicks could have easily tanked in the early 2000s and it would have saved the team from a decade of mediocrity.... That is how it goes in the NBA...

nyvector16 wrote:Losing on purpose is how Lebron ended up in Cleveland...
Losing on purpose is how Tim Duncan ended up with the Spurs...
Losing on purpose is how the 76ers have a high pick this year...

when you are not competing... you have to tank.

Knicks could have easily tanked in the early 2000s and it would have saved the team from a decade of mediocrity.... That is how it goes in the NBA...

Precisely tanking is a GMs strategic tool. The Knicks should have engaged in the practice while they were giddy getting 27-35 wins over a decade just what we're they trying to prove. The Knicks were caught again and again no mans land of drafting. Not good enough to get the prized picks and not good enough to get into the playoffs.

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Read this article in the times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/sports/basketball/knicks-are-changing-with-or-without-carmelo-anthony.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0

The clarity is really quite simple:

Tank and get a top lottery pick next year while having the ability to sign free agents.

IF Lebron and Love are patient, they can join us.

Really quite simple. Dump Amare and Bargs for a pick or two and start a yoot development and simply Tank.

Run the the triangle and nothing else. Lose every game if need be. Be ready for 2015. Should have a top 3 pick in the draft.

Let Melo go, get the euro from Chicago. We can take Boozer. Have to have bodies. Trade Tyson for a low 1st rounder or for a yoot to a team that wants to win now. OKC? Chicago? Golden state?

Small moves add up. Let the coaches do their thing and let the culture begin.

Year two could be huge fun, year three we compete. No lebron or Love? We can make trades with cap space and yoots.

Its the concept, no guarantees, no starphuch and no hype. I can't sell it but it makes sense. You get Melo in a bad contract with bad injury and we are done for years. Can't tie up an asset like him at his age. Dice killed us, Amare kills us. Enough!

Relax Starphuchers, we'll have plenty to cheer. To win we'll have players who will be stars not because we annoint them, but because they produce WINNING.

If Mooby needs to go, so be it. We learned our lesson. If he stays, I think the triangle with the talent we have could be a good team if Melo wants to have his ZEN baptism and give him self to the force. The reality is Melo and Phil might not think that is a good idea and we are in fact trying to help him move and recieve something in return.

As the ZenMaster says, We move forward either way.

The future is bright but we can't see it.

I don't like losing on purpose.. develop a plan, stick to it and try to win and if you don't, the draft is your reward..

lebron and love can stay where they are for all I care.. love is a good player, but I have my reservations.. lebron is a douchebag and I have a hard time rooting for him to win..

hoping for lebron is no different to me, than him trying to stack the deck in miami to win..

I appreciate the struggle and the rebuilding... I appreciate the way dirk did it.. he earned it.. I appreciate that Ewing and Barkley got close but just couldn't win it.. I appreciate the struggle..

i want to beat lebron... End of story..

what's the difference between trading your assets like Melo, Chandler and anything else to get youthier and picks and starting anew with Triangle, new coach and 2) tanking?

Seems like that is the plan or should be.

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Read this article in the times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/sports/basketball/knicks-are-changing-with-or-without-carmelo-anthony.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0

The clarity is really quite simple:

Tank and get a top lottery pick next year while having the ability to sign free agents.

IF Lebron and Love are patient, they can join us.

Really quite simple. Dump Amare and Bargs for a pick or two and start a yoot development and simply Tank.

Run the the triangle and nothing else. Lose every game if need be. Be ready for 2015. Should have a top 3 pick in the draft.

Let Melo go, get the euro from Chicago. We can take Boozer. Have to have bodies. Trade Tyson for a low 1st rounder or for a yoot to a team that wants to win now. OKC? Chicago? Golden state?

Small moves add up. Let the coaches do their thing and let the culture begin.

Year two could be huge fun, year three we compete. No lebron or Love? We can make trades with cap space and yoots.

Its the concept, no guarantees, no starphuch and no hype. I can't sell it but it makes sense. You get Melo in a bad contract with bad injury and we are done for years. Can't tie up an asset like him at his age. Dice killed us, Amare kills us. Enough!

Relax Starphuchers, we'll have plenty to cheer. To win we'll have players who will be stars not because we annoint them, but because they produce WINNING.

If Mooby needs to go, so be it. We learned our lesson. If he stays, I think the triangle with the talent we have could be a good team if Melo wants to have his ZEN baptism and give him self to the force. The reality is Melo and Phil might not think that is a good idea and we are in fact trying to help him move and recieve something in return.

As the ZenMaster says, We move forward either way.

The future is bright but we can't see it.

I don't like losing on purpose.. develop a plan, stick to it and try to win and if you don't, the draft is your reward..

lebron and love can stay where they are for all I care.. love is a good player, but I have my reservations.. lebron is a douchebag and I have a hard time rooting for him to win..

hoping for lebron is no different to me, than him trying to stack the deck in miami to win..

I appreciate the struggle and the rebuilding... I appreciate the way dirk did it.. he earned it.. I appreciate that Ewing and Barkley got close but just couldn't win it.. I appreciate the struggle..

i want to beat lebron... End of story..

what's the difference between trading your assets like Melo, Chandler and anything else to get youthier and picks and starting anew with Triangle, new coach and 2) tanking?

Seems like that is the plan or should be.

the difference is the Houston rockets and the Denver nuggets... The nuggets traded carmelo got youth and picks, they used all of that plus cap space to get naturally better and they did in their first few seasons, actually set a franchise record in wins.... last year was an injury riddled year, so it was a down year, but you get the point..

what they didn't do was keep making trades to ensure they would lose.. Denver tried to win... same thing with the rockets..

To me tanking involves taking premeditated steps, to ensure losing. Not using cap space when you can, not giving out contracts to good players that deserved it.. cleveland did that... true they got lebron, but what happened, how well did that work out for cleveland? They actually got the top pick trying to win, trading for deng, and still won the lottery.. but they tried to win, that is all you can ask for...

jrodmc wrote:Did we tank during the Donnie Walsh era? Maybe. But Jimmie had that forced on him and waited for his moment to kick the old man aside.
Will Double Dealin Dolan sit on his guitar strings watching some 0-13 start for $60 million? Really?

Be real.

The bottom of the league says hello.
The Bucks tank.
The Hawks GM said they were going to tank.
The Jazz still suhuck.
The Kings still suhuck.

Don't act like tanking always works, because you have three examples, and one that hasn't even begun to pan out yet.

A wise man once mentioned that depending on the lottery is for losers.

If you truly suhuck and get ping pong balls, fine. Don't start your every day hoping and pining for them.

This is still the Knicks. They will likely tank 1 year, next, because they have a pick in 2015 and have a bunch of horrible contracts next season limiting flexibility now. Add to this the likelihood that Melo is walking this offseason.

But anyway, I dont see the Knicks tanking and being awful every year going forward, just next due to the confluence of circumstances listed above.

Im all for tanking next season for a top pick then using the financial flexibility of 2015 and beyond to build the team with quality FA's to add alongside the prospect garnered with the 2015 lottery pick.

Nalod wrote:
Read this article in the times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/sports/basketball/knicks-are-changing-with-or-without-carmelo-anthony.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0

The clarity is really quite simple:

Tank and get a top lottery pick next year while having the ability to sign free agents.

IF Lebron and Love are patient, they can join us.

Really quite simple. Dump Amare and Bargs for a pick or two and start a yoot development and simply Tank.

Run the the triangle and nothing else. Lose every game if need be. Be ready for 2015. Should have a top 3 pick in the draft.

Let Melo go, get the euro from Chicago. We can take Boozer. Have to have bodies. Trade Tyson for a low 1st rounder or for a yoot to a team that wants to win now. OKC? Chicago? Golden state?

Small moves add up. Let the coaches do their thing and let the culture begin.

Year two could be huge fun, year three we compete. No lebron or Love? We can make trades with cap space and yoots.

Its the concept, no guarantees, no starphuch and no hype. I can't sell it but it makes sense. You get Melo in a bad contract with bad injury and we are done for years. Can't tie up an asset like him at his age. Dice killed us, Amare kills us. Enough!

Relax Starphuchers, we'll have plenty to cheer. To win we'll have players who will be stars not because we annoint them, but because they produce WINNING.

If Mooby needs to go, so be it. We learned our lesson. If he stays, I think the triangle with the talent we have could be a good team if Melo wants to have his ZEN baptism and give him self to the force. The reality is Melo and Phil might not think that is a good idea and we are in fact trying to help him move and recieve something in return.

As the ZenMaster says, We move forward either way.

The future is bright but we can't see it.

+1. I wholeheartedly agree. I just hope 2015 has decent players in the draft. If we get stuck with another 2013 draft, that could really throw a wrench into our plans.

it seems like people like to throw the word "tank" out there because it sounds cool.

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:i don't understand tanking. does that mean players are throwing games? that coaches are deliberately putting out the worst rotations and not holding anyone accountable? at the very least players are paid to compete and coaches are paid to teach and lead.

it seems like people like to throw the word "tank" out there because it sounds cool.

yea I don't get it, and I think some people's version of tank may not be the same as others.... for me, I do not approve of intentionally losing...

Im sure in the "art of war" there is a section on it. But if losing can help you achieve the ultimate goal perhaps the sacrifice is worth it?

perhaps losing is enevitable and in the longer run you can reverse your fortunes with less damage by a shorter term sacrifice?

So while there is a morality question to resolve (not our decison BTW) in the face of deliberate losing, then one must look at the value of winning?

I suggest you field a team that will try 100% but can benefit from time playing and being leaders. Give Evan Turner a contract and a chance to relax, start and not worry about playing time. Let him Play thru it! At some point he will show what he is made of. A player like that. If he gets on the court and starts Stat whoring jonesing for a new contract then waive him. Team first.

Im using this as one example. Look what happend to Lin when given a chance in the righ system.

Thats "Tanking" because winning not defined game by game. At the same time you get a better chance to draft a franchise type player. Rather than give minutes to Amare, who might help win today, give the chance to a "Royce white" type player who can help win tommorow.

Fans won't like this, but ultimate ones should!!!

At some point you can recruite better players because we build a nice roster for top players. Rebuilding has many faces to it. This has not been the KNick way for a long time!

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:i don't understand tanking. does that mean players are throwing games? that coaches are deliberately putting out the worst rotations and not holding anyone accountable? at the very least players are paid to compete and coaches are paid to teach and lead.

it seems like people like to throw the word "tank" out there because it sounds cool.

yea I don't get it, and I think some people's version of tank may not be the same as others.... for me, I do not approve of intentionally losing...

Im sure in the "art of war" there is a section on it. But if losing can help you achieve the ultimate goal perhaps the sacrifice is worth it?

perhaps losing is enevitable and in the longer run you can reverse your fortunes with less damage by a shorter term sacrifice?

So while there is a morality question to resolve (not our decison BTW) in the face of deliberate losing, then one must look at the value of winning?

I suggest you field a team that will try 100% but can benefit from time playing and being leaders. Give Evan Turner a contract and a chance to relax, start and not worry about playing time. Let him Play thru it! At some point he will show what he is made of. A player like that. If he gets on the court and starts Stat whoring jonesing for a new contract then waive him. Team first.

Im using this as one example. Look what happend to Lin when given a chance in the righ system.

Thats "Tanking" because winning not defined game by game. At the same time you get a better chance to draft a franchise type player. Rather than give minutes to Amare, who might help win today, give the chance to a "Royce white" type player who can help win tommorow.

Fans won't like this, but ultimate ones should!!!

At some point you can recruite better players because we build a nice roster for top players. Rebuilding has many faces to it. This has not been the KNick way for a long time!