http://grantland.com/the-triangle/beat-the-heat-how-brooklyn-turned-its-season-around-and-how-it-could-win-the-east/

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills in then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

Im really in line with your thinking and don't blame Mills for this season only that we didn't tweek that much this season. Thats ok in my book. I said at the trade deadline that not doing anything stupid was a good thing. Sometimes fans equate "Change" as "improvement"! I think Isiah has that on memorized now.

I liken it to the Layden era when he did very little after the Dice debockle and then we had assets and exprirings. Isiah with no real budget leveraged the hell out of it. It was a wild plan to say least!!!!! Might hve worked if you don't hand the keys to the franchise to Marbury! ITs old news BTW, but Without Laydens quiet period Isiah has not juice to play with.

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills in then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

Im really in line with your thinking and don't blame Mills for this season only that we didn't tweek that much this season. Thats ok in my book. I said at the trade deadline that not doing anything stupid was a good thing. Sometimes fans equate "Change" as "improvement"! I think Isiah has that on memorized now.

I liken it to the Layden era when he did very little after the Dice debockle and then we had assets and exprirings. Isiah with no real budget leveraged the hell out of it. It was a wild plan to say least!!!!! Might hve worked if you don't hand the keys to the franchise to Marbury! ITs old news BTW, but Without Laydens quiet period Isiah has not juice to play with.

So the issue with all these GM's is either they don't get it and/or the fans put so much pressure for a win now situation and they make desperate moves (like Bargs - ughh!).

Take the Steve Francis move. Today, most GM's know that putting two (supposed stars) high usage low efficient volume shooters on the same team and think that you are maximize your winning pct does not work.

Denver tried to pull of the same type of starphuck adding Iverson to Melo and it was a monumental disaster. Then, they trade away Iverson to idiot Detroit for CB, replacing a horribly inefficient volume shooter with a very efficient (low key) PG and hhhhmmm. What happens? According to advanced stats, CB was (by far) the best player on the nuggets putting forth superstar advanced stats. Its not a coincidence and finally we may now be getting it.

I don't want Rondo or any other expensive piece just because they are supposedly "good". Phil needs to build a TEAM that meshes and to pick a coach that he is zen-sync with. Maybe Steve Kerr can be our Jeff Hornacek.

Our coach this year is not empowered and it shows. Next year, our coach is gonna be very empowered, especially if he is hand picked.

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills in then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

Im really in line with your thinking and don't blame Mills for this season only that we didn't tweek that much this season. Thats ok in my book. I said at the trade deadline that not doing anything stupid was a good thing. Sometimes fans equate "Change" as "improvement"! I think Isiah has that on memorized now.

I liken it to the Layden era when he did very little after the Dice debockle and then we had assets and exprirings. Isiah with no real budget leveraged the hell out of it. It was a wild plan to say least!!!!! Might hve worked if you don't hand the keys to the franchise to Marbury! ITs old news BTW, but Without Laydens quiet period Isiah has not juice to play with.

So the issue with all these GM's is either they don't get it and/or the fans put so much pressure for a win now situation and they make desperate moves (like Bargs - ughh!).

Take the Steve Francis move. Today, most GM's know that putting two (supposed stars) high usage low efficient volume shooters on the same team and think that you are maximize your winning pct does not work.

Denver tried to pull of the same type of starphuck adding Iverson to Melo and it was a monumental disaster. Then, they trade away Iverson to idiot Detroit for CB, replacing a horribly inefficient volume shooter with a very efficient (low key) PG and hhhhmmm. What happens? According to advanced stats, CB was (by far) the best player on the nuggets putting forth superstar advanced stats. Its not a coincidence and finally we may now be getting it.

I don't want Rondo or any other expensive piece just because they are supposedly "good". Phil needs to build a TEAM that meshes and to pick a coach that he is zen-sync with. Maybe Steve Kerr can be our Jeff Hornacek.

Our coach this year is not empowered and it shows. Next year, our coach is gonna be very empowered, especially if he is hand picked.

Wasn't LeBron and Wade considered two bigh usage guys before playing together??

He said inefficient...

smackeddog wrote:In short:

We had a coach with a flawed game plan, executed badly by a terrible roster, with players who didn't compete and had no ball iq, and then failed to make any adjustments to the game plan. In close games Woody either made the wrong call, or made the right call and the players didn't execute. Everyone is culpable for this seasons stinker, it's pointless trying to figure out who was more to blame.

I think it takes a villiage!!!!

Lots of blame to go around. Its done, and dolan paid for a starphuch with teeth that could change the culture.

Thats what I blame more than any one player or coach. The culture has been chaotic since the Bargs trade happend and in hindsight Grunwald was on board with it.

GM and owner should and need to be in synch! They might not always have the right direction (Sic: Glen taylor and the Wolves) but at least have a plan.

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:In short:

We had a coach with a flawed game plan, executed badly by a terrible roster, with players who didn't compete and had no ball iq, and then failed to make any adjustments to the game plan. In close games Woody either made the wrong call, or made the right call and the players didn't execute. Everyone is culpable for this seasons stinker, it's pointless trying to figure out who was more to blame.

Smacleddog, I totally agree with everything you said..

Stan Van Gundy had something interesting to say about Indy not playing it's starters against Milwaukee...He said Indy is a fragile, mentally weak team...If the starters played against Milwaukee and lost then it would have been devastating to their psyche...And Indy was having a monster season...Let's look at the Knicks at the start of the season...JR suspension coupled with the drama with his brother. We saw what happened to JR last playoffs...Shump who I wanted to be our second best player this year was frazzled after Dolan wanted him shipped out...We just traded for Bargs and trying to fit him in offensively...The GM was fired just as the season started...Amare still limited by the Doc but complaining Woody isn't playing him enough..KMart hurt..Chandler hurt early and still not giving 100%...Bone head end of game plays to start the season from coach and players resulting in devastating losses...Felton marriage problems which later turned into the gun arrest...Melo was the only guy ready to play from day one with a rook, Tim Jr., learning his role in the NBA...How in the world can we assess blame to one guy???..

This is fair. Everybody shares blame. They all suck.

Melo had a very good year though so he gets less blame.

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills is a very good thing, then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills is a very good thing, then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

I disagree about Grunwald. I thought he was pretty savy and did as much as he could with little wiggle room in regards to cap and assets. I also think he was very resourceful in finding guys all over the world that would play for nothing but be in the rotation. I thought his use of Jorts, Jordan, Gadz and Jeffries deals was smart. He drafted Hardaway. He built last years team. I lean more towards Larry Brown's take on Mills. Also, not sure what he was thinking playing Shump in that game when he had a trade in place

Tyson Chandler/CB, Bargs, Camby, Felton, Prigs (resign), JR/Chris, Metta, Lin, Kidd (thought he gifted the knicks the last 2 year

Name me JUST ONE great move that he made to cover up the stink?

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:......and woodson was the coach.

This speaks to the roster construction more than anything.

We also had the oldest roster in history. After 18-6 and 54 game season woodson had two years left on his deal and Kidd underminding him for the job is not cool. Kidd sold himself to Billy King and did a great job!

Kudo's to him. Sheed stuck around and was a nice force with the team.

Kidd signed a 3 year deal and we just don't know if he not gotten the Net gig would he have returned?

Bottom line is Nets took a big risk with Kidd. When do the knicks do such a thing? They pay top dollar for the starphuck big name that comes with big cred. Knicks don't have a history under dolan of being "visionairies" do we?

Im not defending woodson, but he is not turrible! Remember we fired the GM before the season started and installed a numbers guy as the Gm

Btw, since we fired the GM at the beginning of the season and installed a "numbers" guy, guess what, we have not made any stupid trades, given up any stupid draft picks, starphucked, coachphucked ...

Isn't that interesting? We get rid of a HORRIBLE GM and replace him with a guy who looks at numbers and whaddya know, we are sort of tanking the season without any desperation moves and now have Phil in place to rebuild it.

If anybody can't see that Grunwald out and Steve Mills is a very good thing, then they are really not seeing the big picture and looking at things via Old-School-Glasses.

Mills is a smart dude from princeton who I think that people are underestimating. He is going to do lots of leg work and research/analysis for phil.

I disagree about Grunwald. I thought he was pretty savy and did as much as he could with little wiggle room in regards to cap and assets. I also think he was very resourceful in finding guys all over the world that would play for nothing but be in the rotation. I thought his use of Jorts, Jordan, Gadz and Jeffries deals was smart. He drafted Hardaway. He built last years team. I lean more towards Larry Brown's take on Mills. Also, not sure what he was thinking playing Shump in that game when he had a trade in place

Tyson Chandler/CB, Bargs, Camby, Felton, Prigs (resign), JR/Chris, Metta, Lin, Kidd (thought he gifted the knicks the last 2 year

Name me JUST ONE great move that he made to cover up the stink?

He had a 54 win season..No one wants Lin's contract, certainly not Houston..

So what. That makes those moves good? Circular logic again. 54 wins in one season make a GM good? It makes a coach good? It makes any player on the team good? Does it make us good fans? One season with many variables proves or disproves nothing unless you really would like it to.

We NEEDED Lin and his contract. It would not have affected 2015 cap space, any fan that claims to care just cares about Dolan and his money. However, lets not turn this into a regurgitated Lin argument there is nothing new here.