dk7th wrote:more good material to measure players actual value to their respective teams--

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus

there was another article from a while back about gallinari that also looked at this statistic but is called RAPM there

http://www.denverstiffs.com/2013/1/12/3866818/inside-the-numbers-danilo-gallinari-denver-nuggets

Thanks dk. Will take a look and read the analysis.

The first things that jumps out at me was that Iggy was rated ahead of Durant. That is a big red flag but I will read more ...

And the absolute death knell to this statistical analysis:
At #31, AND NOT LAST: Raymond Felton!

There are two whole pages of PG's behind Ray!

The UK will never stand for this!

mreinman wrote:Go to the below page and sort by Win Shares and you would probably get the closest advanced stat to reality (there will always be anomalies with every stat)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_advanced.html

Top 20:

Rk Player WS ▾
1 Kevin Durant 18.4
2 LeBron James 15.2
3 Kevin Love 13.8
4 Stephen Curry 12.3
5 Blake Griffin 11.8
6 James Harden 11.7
7 Chris Paul 11.7
8 DeAndre Jordan 10.8
9 Kyle Lowry 10.8
10 Paul George 10.6
11 Anthony Davis 10.5
12 Joakim Noah 10.4
13 Carmelo Anthony 10.3
14 Goran Dragic 10.2
15 Dirk Nowitzki 10.2
16 Andre Drummond 9.2
17 Damian Lillard 9.2
18 Robin Lopez 9
19 Serge Ibaka 8.8
20 DeMar DeRozan 8.5

But...Melo sux, and he's not really hurt!

mreinman wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

mreinman wrote:Go to the below page and sort by Win Shares and you would probably get the closest advanced stat to reality (there will always be anomalies with every stat)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_advanced.html

Top 20:

Rk Player WS ▾
1 Kevin Durant 18.4
2 LeBron James 15.2
3 Kevin Love 13.8
4 Stephen Curry 12.3
5 Blake Griffin 11.8
6 James Harden 11.7
7 Chris Paul 11.7
8 DeAndre Jordan 10.8
9 Kyle Lowry 10.8
10 Paul George 10.6
11 Anthony Davis 10.5
12 Joakim Noah 10.4
13 Carmelo Anthony 10.3
14 Goran Dragic 10.2
15 Dirk Nowitzki 10.2
16 Andre Drummond 9.2
17 Damian Lillard 9.2
18 Robin Lopez 9
19 Serge Ibaka 8.8
20 DeMar DeRozan 8.5

But...Melo sux, and he's not really hurt!

I think 13th is relatively fair of what and where he was and should be this year. DJ has had a great year and a candidate for MIP but I think he may be a bit too high. Dragic and Noah may also deserves to be bumped higher.

I'm sorry, but any list that has Melo within sight of the likes of St. Paul the George is completely unrealistic!

Seriously though, I think win shares has been pooh-poohed on enough in this forum. You might have missed those threads, and I don't have enough ambition to go searching for them.
Not that I agree with the pooh-pooh, but I never argue stats with Bonn.

dk7th wrote:more good material to measure players actual value to their respective teams--

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10740818/introducing-real-plus-minus

there was another article from a while back about gallinari that also looked at this statistic but is called RAPM there

http://www.denverstiffs.com/2013/1/12/3866818/inside-the-numbers-danilo-gallinari-denver-nuggets

good read, I always thought the +/- stat was flawed because a player could be on the floor with wade and lebron for a majority of the time, he will have a pretty good +/-..

this breaks it down more, looking at the true contribution of the player while on the floor..

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

mreinman wrote:Go to the below page and sort by Win Shares and you would probably get the closest advanced stat to reality (there will always be anomalies with every stat)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_advanced.html

Top 20:

Rk Player WS ▾
1 Kevin Durant 18.4
2 LeBron James 15.2
3 Kevin Love 13.8
4 Stephen Curry 12.3
5 Blake Griffin 11.8
6 James Harden 11.7
7 Chris Paul 11.7
8 DeAndre Jordan 10.8
9 Kyle Lowry 10.8
10 Paul George 10.6
11 Anthony Davis 10.5
12 Joakim Noah 10.4
13 Carmelo Anthony 10.3
14 Goran Dragic 10.2
15 Dirk Nowitzki 10.2
16 Andre Drummond 9.2
17 Damian Lillard 9.2
18 Robin Lopez 9
19 Serge Ibaka 8.8
20 DeMar DeRozan 8.5

But...Melo sux, and he's not really hurt!

did you examine him? smh (green font)

I don't have to! I believe all obtuse comments about Melo's sucktitude! LMAO [sick smilie]

mreinman wrote:Go to the below page and sort by Win Shares and you would probably get the closest advanced stat to reality (there will always be anomalies with every stat)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_advanced.html

Top 20:

Rk Player WS ▾
1 Kevin Durant 18.4
2 LeBron James 15.2
3 Kevin Love 13.8
4 Stephen Curry 12.3
5 Blake Griffin 11.8
6 James Harden 11.7
7 Chris Paul 11.7
8 DeAndre Jordan 10.8
9 Kyle Lowry 10.8
10 Paul George 10.6
11 Anthony Davis 10.5
12 Joakim Noah 10.4
13 Carmelo Anthony 10.3
14 Goran Dragic 10.2
15 Dirk Nowitzki 10.2
16 Andre Drummond 9.2
17 Damian Lillard 9.2
18 Robin Lopez 9
19 Serge Ibaka 8.8
20 DeMar DeRozan 8.5

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:Go to the below page and sort by Win Shares and you would probably get the closest advanced stat to reality (there will always be anomalies with every stat)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_advanced.html

Top 20:

Rk Player WS ▾
1 Kevin Durant 18.4
2 LeBron James 15.2
3 Kevin Love 13.8
4 Stephen Curry 12.3
5 Blake Griffin 11.8
6 James Harden 11.7
7 Chris Paul 11.7
8 DeAndre Jordan 10.8
9 Kyle Lowry 10.8
10 Paul George 10.6
11 Anthony Davis 10.5
12 Joakim Noah 10.4
13 Carmelo Anthony 10.3
14 Goran Dragic 10.2
15 Dirk Nowitzki 10.2
16 Andre Drummond 9.2
17 Damian Lillard 9.2
18 Robin Lopez 9
19 Serge Ibaka 8.8
20 DeMar DeRozan 8.5

What makes it the closest to reality? At the very least, you can make a good argument for using WS48 because you have to adjust for minutes played but I think there are other useful stats too.

I did not say that there aren't other useful stats. Everything has its flaws. As you know WP's has an argument against Berri for over weighted rebounding. etc ...

WS48 is good too but what if a player is able to log more minutes? Actual WS's contributed seem to be more closely related to wins.

And if you look at the list, they seem to get it right - but that does not mean its correct.

Certainly a more realistic wins gauge than RPMS?

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:Go to the below page and sort by Win Shares and you would probably get the closest advanced stat to reality (there will always be anomalies with every stat)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_advanced.html

Top 20:

Rk Player WS ▾
1 Kevin Durant 18.4
2 LeBron James 15.2
3 Kevin Love 13.8
4 Stephen Curry 12.3
5 Blake Griffin 11.8
6 James Harden 11.7
7 Chris Paul 11.7
8 DeAndre Jordan 10.8
9 Kyle Lowry 10.8
10 Paul George 10.6
11 Anthony Davis 10.5
12 Joakim Noah 10.4
13 Carmelo Anthony 10.3
14 Goran Dragic 10.2
15 Dirk Nowitzki 10.2
16 Andre Drummond 9.2
17 Damian Lillard 9.2
18 Robin Lopez 9
19 Serge Ibaka 8.8
20 DeMar DeRozan 8.5

What makes it the closest to reality? At the very least, you can make a good argument for using WS48 because you have to adjust for minutes played but I think there are other useful stats too.

I did not say that there aren't other useful stats. Everything has its flaws. As you know WP's has an argument against Berri for over weighted rebounding. etc ...

WS48 is good too but what if a player is able to log more minutes? Actual WS's contributed seem to be more closely related to wins.

And if you look at the list, they seem to get it right - but that does not mean its correct.

Certainly a more realistic wins gauge than RPMS?

I disagree. I've never seen any evidence that there's a consistent, big drop off in production as minutes increase. At most, you could look at WS48 and maybe do a tiny adjustment in your mind. Total WS is too confounded with minutes played though.

Minutes played is the actual minutes played. If a player plays 40 per and contributes more than a player who plays 35 minutes then he contributed more.

If want to make an argument that the player who played 35 minutes with the player who played 5 minutes as his backup then perhaps I can see some truth to that but there were need to be a stat that compiles this combined production. Backups very often dont perform at the level of the starter.

How about RPMS? What stat(s) do you go by as your barometer? You are a big fan of David Berri but now have a problem with WP's. Now I know stats are forever evolving but at any given time, you have to choose something. It can't keep changing based on the required outcome (not saying that you do this, but many do).