Lowry
Aflalo
?
Melo
Tyson

That's a good group right there. Something along those lines is the best we can do for immediate overhaul if we keep Melo. Is it a contender? I don't know. Our best course may still be to blow it up and move on without Melo. I'm coming around to the idea that as bad as this year has been, Knicks can regroup rather quickly if the right management is in place. But therein lies what always ales the Knicks.

VCoug wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Evans is a bad player. The only chances that should be taken are on players who have produced in semi-limited roles that could be on the verge of breaking out with consistent minutes and not players who have consistently produce badly when given minutes.

Exactly. Evans has been a mediocre to bad player almost his entire career and 3 recent games won't change that. At best, he's a semi-effective 6th man for an already established team. He certainly isn't worth sacrificing future cap space for our ****ty team.

you never even responded to my post. im really not trying to goad you, but you attempted to call me out and i thought i actually gave you a well-reasoned response and you didn't even bother responding.

As far as Melo is concerned if he has to go then let him go it's not like the Knicks are winning anything with him. With Melo the Knicks are just going to be good enough to make playoffs and bad enough to not win in the playoffs and good enough to miss out on top draft picks. I believe the Knicks have to let everything play out.

Vmart wrote:This right here is the problem. The Knicks should in no way get off track and stick to the plan of max cap space. Adding Evans now with his contract just to appease Melo is stupid. I would much rather let Melo walk. The Knicks are a model franchise when it comes to patch work players that do not belong to a long term plan. Guys don't let this Melo leaving get in the way of max cap space. This is the same mistakes made again and again. You can't break away from a plan for marginal players.

As far as Melo is concerned if he has to go then let him go it's not like the Knicks are winning anything with him. With Melo the Knicks are just going to be good enough to make playoffs and bad enough to not win in the playoffs and good enough to miss out on top draft picks. I believe the Knicks have to let everything play out.

I hear what you're saying -- "patchwork," esp. if it's done expensively and not mindful of future cap, has never really served us well. Gotten us into trouble many times in fact...And I can see why obtaining a guy like Evans in the off-season could be looked as nothing more than another typical Knick patchwork-type move -- starting next year, Evans is owed a little over $32mm (contract runs through 2016/2017). That's a lot of cheddar, no doubt about it. Or is it? You can easily look at him with the glass half full -- that contract could easily be looked at as fair market value, even a steal, if we could get the man right and playing consistent ball again, which I feel is a distinct possibility.

Briggs is right -- look at what he's done the last 3 games (all on the road mind you) --

• 3/1/14 @ LAC: 40 mins, 21 pts (9-19 FGs, 2-6 from 3, 2-2 FTs), 9 rebs, 5 assts.
• 3/3/14 @ SAC: 41 mins, 27 pts (8-14 FGs, 2-3 from 3, 9-10 FTs), 10 rebs, 8 assts.
• 3/4/14 @ LAL: 43 mins, 24 pts (8-17 FGs, 0-4 from 3, 8-10 FTs), 7 rebs, 11 assts.

That's nice production across the board. Don't know about you guys but I've always considered players that can stuff stat lines like this to be real commodities, a cut above the rest...A big key here is the increased playing time. If given enough mins, here's a guy that has a real good chance to impact many aspects of the game. I don't think this is some aberration -- if given starter-type mins. and a well-defined role, I think you can expect consistent production like this from this guy. And he's still young too which can only be viewed as a plus -- this isn't one of those long-in-the-tooth guys that may not have a full season left in him. This guy's got many years left in this league, well beyond his current contract. And like I said -- if we could get Pierre Jackson back in this deal, that's straight up gravy. Bringing Jackson here potentially is what gets me most excited about this idea. I know he's slightly undersized but like I've said in the past -- 5'10"-5'11" or whatever he really is in shoes really ain't that small. This guy's athleticism and overall ability more than make up for being slightly under 6'. Complete non-issue here for me.

This overhaul doesn't have to be that complicated --

(1) Push for this deal with New Orleans -- Chandler for Evans and Jackson. Too bad we couldn't have explored this before the trade deadline---Evans is playing a lot better now (so is Chandler too though, so that helps us), the Pels have some filler types on the roster that could've been plugged in for salary purposes & we would've had more sweeteners we could've added to the equation that won't/probably won't be there this off-season (Beno Udrih, Murry, Tyler, Aldrich). As it stands now, to get this done, I would throw in a future 2nd round pick to appease the Pelicans and make the trade look that much more attractive. I consider this deal a longshot btw -- don't know why they'd even want to do this -- I know if I were Demps, I'd much rather re-up Stiemsma/Ajinca or sign something comparable and keep Evans/Jackson, integrating PJ into the lineup already, but that's me. They may have other ideas (shedding substantial salary; bringing in a true big-man mentor for Davis; P-Jax and the Pels are at odds, they may feel he has to be moved eventually--right now they're getting no return on the investment--neither party is getting what they want out of the situation; who knows..).

(2) Sign Patty Mills with the full MLE. Offer him the starting PG spot and over 30 mins a night. That may be enough to get him (might take a little more than the money esp. considering we'll only be working with the lower tax-paying exception). I said the exact same thing this past off-season -- execute this time.

(3) The rest I'd be willing to do on the cheap concentrating on the best young talent I could find to fill gaps (contemplate low-cost 2 even 3 yr deals with the idea of bridging the gap to these players' early Bird/full Bird rights, ensuring our chance to keep them long-term if they panned out) --

• With Chandler gone, consider signing skilled 7-footers like Justin Hamilton and Marcus Cousin. Maybe give Aldrich another look too (size, rebounding). Offer Hamilton the starting C spot in order to get him to choose NY over other interested teams. Why not?
• Consider SFs Devin Ebanks, Chris Wright (Earl Clark too -- dude should be playing 30+ mins a night the rest of the way now--stretch him out and lets see what he's got) as guys that could sub in for, play alongside, or replace Melo.
• Consider true PFs Kevin Jones, Richard Howell, Jamelle Hagins, Ike Diogu as replacements for Kenyon Martin and fill-ins for STAT when he needs time off/breaks down.
• Consider 6'8" 220 lb. swingman DeQuan Jones for more depth on the wing, a guy with excellent potential on both sides of the ball and incredible athleticism (this guy played well for Orlando last year when used). Imagine the speed change in our attack with the above PG changes and guys like Jones and/or Wright out on the break finishing...SG/SF Othyus Jeffers is another guy -- got some miles on him now but he's back from a knee injury playing at a very high level once again in the DL. Love his strength and toughness at the 2/3 positions. Played very well for Washington a couple of years ago on a callup before he eventually blew out his knee. Appears to be back 100% now.
• Consider PGs Kalin Lucas or Seth Curry as cheap PG alternatives if we strike out with the options above. We could do far worse. I'd seriously consider finding a spot for Curry anyway, just for his shooting alone, even if we did fill the PG spot with these other players.
• Obviously try to deal into the draft somehow, although that may be easier said than done. Make the attempt though, absolutely (start with the $3.3mm cash allotment; then there's Shumpert who still has value--maybe focus on raising his stock even further by staying committed to him the rest of the way--hopefully he's got another stretch of solid play in him like he showed in Texas); maybe THJ becomes expendable if we could trade for Evans--he could fetch a better pick than Shump in all likelihood), etc..

Sell these ideas to Melo for now and tell him it'll be a short process to get back on track, with the idea of adding one more major piece when STAT/Bargnani come off the cap the following year (hopefully we can shed a few more salaries for that off-season as well like Felton and Smith, maybe trade Shumpert for a pick, package Shump with Felton, etc.). Hopefully if Melo does return, we could get him to defer some money for that off-season as well (if that's even possible). If he's on board, great. If not, we bid the man adieu and adhere to the exact same plan. If that's truly the case, hopefully we did enough legwork in the meantime where we have some contingency trade plans on the back burner ready to go for Melo i.e. expiring contracts and a pick or 2 minimum.

y2zipper wrote:Evans isn't good enough to gamble on. He hasn't quite peaked as a player yet (but he's so close that it's not like he'll get significantly better), but there's nothing this year or any other year of his career that shows he can put up these stat lines consistently. JR Smith and Raymond Felton contracts are what you get when you rely on inconsistent players.

Knicks need to stick with the plan and shed as much salary as they can next season without taking on long-term deals. Ideally, you could move Smith and Felton (though it's unlikely), but Chandler could definitely be moved for a pick and another one-year deal. Amare, Chandler and Bargnani are all coming off the books and you'll have space to rebuild the team.

Normally I'd agree with that sentiment -- I just feel that if the plan is to keep Melo, we'll have to show him some kind of proactivity here before the summer of 2015. How would he approach next year otherwise? Gotta give this dude a few more (better) pieces to work with next year, even if the real success might not be expected to begin until the year after...I feel a backcourt upgrade of Tyreke Evans/Pierre Jackson/Patty Mills, a coaching change to Phil Jackson if these rumors are to be believed (what's the story here---front office position or head coach? Hearing both), along with some other cost-effective maneuvering for some of the top young DL-type talent we can get to fill in some gaps is definitely a step in that direction.

Regarding Evans, I disagree with your statement that "there's nothing this year or any other year of his career that shows he can put up these stat lines consistently." Is he doing it now, the past few games (finally armed with more playing time, the ball in his hands and more responsibility)? Yes. Did he perform well in college his only year? Yes. Did he do it his rookie year in Sacramento? Yes. Did he perform well his last year in Sac. before getting traded? Yes, very efficiently in fact (he shot almost 48% from the field that year and had his best year from behind the arc). Is he still young with upside? Yes, even you admitted as much by saying he hasn't quite peaked yet as a player (that I tend to agree with). I mean even this year -- yeah his shooting numbers are at a career low but so are his minutes. Dude's still putting up close to 13 ppg, over 4 rebs & over 4 assts. You can see the potential for very good production in multiple categories is still there...He's playing about 11 total minutes less than his rookie season---that's a huge difference. In order for this guy to be most effective he needs starter minutes along with a much more defined role than he has now with the Pelicans. You throw him in the mix with Melo; PGs that can shoot the ball, get out and run the break and make plays for others (Patty Mills, Pierre Jackson, maybe a Seth Curry; a still-capable vet big man in STAT who he could set up routinely & get easy buckets for; hopefully a C upgrade or two, cost-effective options like Justin Hamilton or Marcus Cousin (here are 2 skilled 7 footers that can actually play on the offensive end of the floor), etc. --- I think he could thrive playing with teammates like that, either making plays for all of these guys routinely or being on the receiving end ready to score the ball. Then if we're lucky to clear enough room for one more big gun the following year (or who knows, maybe we'd only need one or 2 more 2nd tier-types by then), that could be a pretty exciting squad, man. If we could have some success next year with these upgrades, it would also show potential FAs that the Knicks are back and a team that's worth signing up with..

Finestrg wrote:

y2zipper wrote:Evans isn't good enough to gamble on. He hasn't quite peaked as a player yet (but he's so close that it's not like he'll get significantly better), but there's nothing this year or any other year of his career that shows he can put up these stat lines consistently. JR Smith and Raymond Felton contracts are what you get when you rely on inconsistent players.

Knicks need to stick with the plan and shed as much salary as they can next season without taking on long-term deals. Ideally, you could move Smith and Felton (though it's unlikely), but Chandler could definitely be moved for a pick and another one-year deal. Amare, Chandler and Bargnani are all coming off the books and you'll have space to rebuild the team.

Normally I'd agree with that sentiment -- I just feel that if the plan is to keep Melo, we'll have to show him some kind of proactivity here before the summer of 2015. How would he approach next year otherwise? Gotta give this dude a few more (better) pieces to work with next year, even if the real success might not be expected to begin until the year after...I feel a backcourt upgrade of Tyreke Evans/Pierre Jackson/Patty Mills, a coaching change to Phil Jackson if these rumors are to be believed (what's the story here---front office position or head coach? Hearing both), along with some other cost-effective maneuvering for some of the top young DL-type talent we can get to fill in some gaps is definitely a step in that direction.

Regarding Evans, I disagree with your statement that "there's nothing this year or any other year of his career that shows he can put up these stat lines consistently." Is he doing it now, the past few games (finally armed with more playing time, the ball in his hands and more responsibility)? Yes. Did he perform well in college his only year? Yes. Did he do it his rookie year in Sacramento? Yes. Did he perform well his last year in Sac. before getting traded? Yes, very efficiently in fact (he shot almost 48% from the field that year and had his best year from behind the arc). Is he still young with upside? Yes, even you admitted as much by saying he hasn't quite peaked yet as a player (that I tend to agree with). I mean even this year -- yeah his shooting numbers are at a career low but so are his minutes. Dude's still putting up close to 13 ppg, over 4 rebs & over 4 assts. You can see the potential for very good production in multiple categories is still there...He's playing about 11 total minutes less than his rookie season---that's a huge difference. In order for this guy to be most effective he needs starter minutes along with a much more defined role than he has now with the Pelicans. You throw him in the mix with Melo; PGs that can shoot the ball, get out and run the break and make plays for others (Patty Mills, Pierre Jackson, maybe a Seth Curry; a still-capable vet big man in STAT who he could set up routinely & get easy buckets for; hopefully a C upgrade or two, cost-effective options like Justin Hamilton or Marcus Cousin (here are 2 skilled 7 footers that can actually play on the offensive end of the floor), etc. --- I think he could thrive playing with teammates like that, either making plays for all of these guys routinely or being on the receiving end ready to score the ball. Then if we're lucky to clear enough room for one more big gun the following year (or who knows, maybe we'd only need one or 2 more 2nd tier-types by then), that could be a pretty exciting squad, man. If we could have some success next year with these upgrades, it would also show potential FAs that the Knicks are back and a team that's worth signing up with..

I admitted he has upside because he does, but he isn't worth the money. I get why you're saying what you're saying, but Melo already knows what the plan is. Wait out next year for space, hit on the first round pick and recruit free agents to join you if you can. He even has an opt-in so it's not even like Melo has to commit long-term right now or to the Knick rebuild at all if nobody will roll into NY with him.

nyk4ever wrote:we sure couldn't use a 24yo guard who goes 25pts/7ast/4reb on 54% shooting tonight. forget the money, the kid is a player, he'd instantly be the best guard we've had in some time.

kid is averaging 22/7/7 on 50% shooting over his last 5. i don't get how this is still a dispute. 11mm/year is a bargain for that kind of production

He's really not that great. 40.6% FG and 18.8% from 3p% are both atrocious. There's no reason for his numbers to be that putrid. What you want is efficient players; we already have our volume scorer, that's Carmelo.