While No one could say this would have produced a championship if things were different who knows how our trajectory would have been for the last 20 years......

March 2, 2007
Hindsight, the Knicks and Nelson’s Foresight
By HARVEY ARATON
Close your eyes. Take a deep breath. Let your mind wander back to March 8, 1996, the day the Knicks cast Don Nelson out as an eccentric coach and a burnout case.

Remember how the players celebrated Nelson’s dismissal and the installation of the career assistant Jeff Van Gundy. How Dave Checketts, the president of Madison Square Garden, said Nelson “looked defeated.”

Beleaguered, beaten down, with the unforgivable record of 34-25, after the same number of games the 26-33 Knicks have played this season going into tonight’s Garden meeting with the Golden State Warriors and their first-year coach, Don Nelson.

Granted, that was a different era, in a James Dolan-less Garden and a context almost inconceivable given the current deflated achievements and standards. Under Van Gundy the Knicks did resurface as a solid playoff team until the bottom dropped out. But given what Nelson subsequently achieved, his keen eye for talent, it’s also fair to ask: Would he have been better for the long haul?

“Oh, it would never have worked out in New York,” Nelson said yesterday in a telephone interview, an acknowledgment that succeeding Pat Riley was mission impossible, especially for him.

Nelson was an outsider, an agent of change, who didn’t believe the Knicks had much of a future with Patrick Ewing, then 33 and angling for a rich contract extension, as their franchise player. Nelson was thinking out of the box, and big. He wanted the Knicks to chase Shaquille O’Neal, who was playing his last season in Orlando.

“I had coached Shaq in the world championships in ’94 and established a pretty good relationship with him,” Nelson said. “I knew he wanted to go elsewhere and so I brought this up a meeting with the Garden people. I said: ‘He would come to New York. It’s going to be Los Angeles or us. And if we give ’em Ewing, it would be the best deal Orlando could make.’

“Well, somehow that got back to Ewing and after that, I was toast.”

Put off by Nelson’s up-tempo offense that didn’t feature him as a low-post hub, Ewing led an insurrection, a work slowdown. Instead of the toast, the Knicks put their money on Ewing, their longtime bread-and-butter, and so much overpriced talent that made them what are they today.

But what if they had taken the alternative route, given up trying to re-create Riley, Armani and all, and just let Nelly be Nelly? What if they had let the man who had worn ugly fish ties stalking the sideline in unglamorous Milwaukee remake the Knicks in his own unpredictable image?

Maybe they would not have gotten Shaq, but might they have developed a more worldly view?

Gregg Popovich, coach of the internationally flavored and three-time champion Spurs, tells of how, on a late 1980s trip to Germany to take his first close look at the European game, he spotted one familiar American face in the arena. It was Nelson, in front of the pack, ahead of his time.

•

“It was actually my son, Donny, who was the pioneer,” Nelson said. “He was traveling all over the world, playing amateur ball. He called me from Russia one day and said, ‘You’ve got to see some of these guys.’ I went over and was amazed by the way they played, especially the ability of the big men to pass and shoot like the guards.”

That the signature draft pick of Nelson’s long career would be a German was a coincidence. That he was astute enough to land Dirk Nowitzki, the best foreign N.B.A. player to date, was not.

Nelson, the coach who wasn’t urbane enough for Celebrity Row, went to Dallas and in four years turned one of the league’s perennial losers into a 60-victory team. He drafted Nowitzki, traded for Steve Nash when Nash was a backup in Phoenix to Jason Kidd and developed both.

Here we are, all these years after being told by the Knicks that Nelson was a has-been in his mid-50s, and his guys, Nowitzki and Nash, are the essential players on the teams (Dallas and Phoenix) with the league’s best records, with Nowitzki the leading contender to replace Nash as most valuable player.

Just for the record, Nelson reminds us that he also drafted Josh Howard, a rising co-star for Nowitzki in Dallas, with the 29th pick in the first round. By comparison, how many All-Stars have the Knicks developed since, well, Ewing was won in a lottery in 1985?

“I’ve always enjoyed the games, the competition, but putting the teams together, developing the talent, that’s what I’ve enjoyed the most,” Nelson said.

He has coached more victories than anyone except Lenny Wilkens but has not won a title, and his teams, no defensive juggernauts, have rarely overachieved in the playoffs. Doubts also persist about Nash’s and Nowitzki’s ability to front a champion, although critics shouldn’t belabor this point. Nowitzki’s struggles in last year’s finals notwithstanding, he hit a cold-blooded jumper over Shaq near the end of Game 5 — a shot of title timber — only to have Dwyane Wade bailed out by a dubious whistle in the series’ pivotal moment.

•

Nelson was out of the Dallas picture by then, seemingly in retirement, until the Warriors’ general manager, Chris Mullin, reached out to his old coach and mentor during Nelson’s first go-round at Golden State. The season has been turbulent, injury marred, but Nelson said he likes the core talent, especially the Latvian Andris Biedrins, whom he recently called the best center he has coached since Bob Lanier, way back in Milwaukee.

Was he serious or looking to settle an old score? Better than Ewing?

Obviously not the Ewing in his prime, Nelson said, just the Ewing that he coached, the Ewing who resisted change and reality, who made the Knicks choose.

Close your eyes. Look back with what you know now. Smart choice or not?

E-mail: hjaraton@nytimes.com

holfresh wrote:Nelson ever made it to the finals?..Did Van Gundy made it to the finals?

Van gundy did a hell of a job, can't take that away.

The notion that Ewing is a warrior saint is not accurate.

Maybe if were proactive in change sooner we could have made other moves.

Donnie Nelson was the architect of the Dallas team that did win with MVP dirk. Just saying that had we let ewing walk, or traded him for shaq imagine the possibilities?

Instead we resigned Ewing past his prime. The rest we know.

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:Nelson ever made it to the finals?..Did Van Gundy made it to the finals?

Van gundy did a hell of a job, can't take that away.

The notion that Ewing is a warrior saint is not accurate.

Maybe if were proactive in change sooner we could have made other moves.

Donnie Nelson was the architect of the Dallas team that did win with MVP dirk. Just saying that had we let ewing walk, or traded him for shaq imagine the possibilities?

Instead we resigned Ewing past his prime. The rest we know.

ewing's ego was oddly bigger than his skill and talent. he had an opportunity to go to pete newell's big man camp but absolutely refused-- john thompson had a hand in that poor choice. meanwhile guess who decided to improve their footwork and low post games with pete newell? shaquille o'neal and hakeem olajuwon.

when your best player refuses to improve or change his game or adapt there will be underachievement. conversely, when a coach caters to the best player who is flawed there will also be underachievement.

What a joke thread. Setting history straight with an agenda of discounting Ewing, Riley, Van Gundy for someone that hasn't won a ring. Even Van Gundy has gotten further.

Nalod wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:Are you seriously bringing up Don Nelson? The guy hasn't won crap! We should have given Riley what he wanted to stay. He is the one who keeps winning even as an executive.

What a joke thread. Setting history straight with an agenda of discounting Ewing, Riley, Van Gundy for someone that hasn't won a ring. Even Van Gundy has gotten further.

Its joke to transpose ones career to think it would be the same if nothing changes.

If one could trade Ewing for Shaq you really think everything would have still been the same?

The 1999 trip to the finals was a fluke as we never sniffed it again.

That's not entirely true. We made it to the ECF the next season and lost in 6 to the Pacers. It was the next season, 2001,that the wheels came off and we lost to Toronto in the 1st round.

That is his legend, but like most athletes they are egocentric business people too and ewing at age 33 was on the decline.

No doubt we should have held on to Riley. I prefer he would have stuck. But you can't transpose his miami success and say difinitively it would have translated. Maybe we win 4 titles with him? Maybe none.

But, we know EWing at age 33 was going for a new and HUGE contract and Don Nelson was ahead of his time. He wanted Ewing gone. Look how it all unfolded, Three years later we go to the finals with a team that was running (without Ewing) and that was despite JVG who was not that kind of coach. I loved JVG and thought he did a great job. Maybe Nelson wins, maybe he does not but that was the direction the team was heading.

It made good business to keep Ewing and dump Nelson. Sure Don never wins his title. SAS got on the international thing early and it paid off big. Maybe we get Dirk instead? Maybe Shaq comes here?

Im only discussing the bonafide events that was in place, not conceptual. Riles left. He don't leave there is no Nelson and we don't have this discussion.

As far as "discrediting" riles, lets be real, Showtime was alreadyin place and they were already champs by the time he took over. He did a great job but its not like he was there and developed them.

I thought he did a better job "coaching" in NY with the players he had. "Stubburn" is used to label MDA and Riles was all that with Starks. He road the horse he came into town and stood by him. Bottom line is Knicks did not win. I thought he had that team playing at a high level which was based on its raw talent and emotionality. It was also its achiles heal.

IN Miami he basically could not get passed the KNicks and JVG, who like I said did a great job. Only the "fight Series" were they able to get buy knicks. I thought he burned those teams out and they should have gone further. Still, he did a great job.

Only until he got Shaq an wade together did he win, and that was after SVG was fired. He coached them half a season thru the playoffs.

As an Exec He would have been great in NY. I also think A nelson Era could have been special if things fell into place.

Lets not get too personal here, I backed my stuff up with a good article that is also an opinion piece. Im not taking a dump on the ewing era. My point is it should have ended sooner.

The next year we did get to the ECF's do you remember how awful Ewing was?

would history have been different if we traded ewing or let him walk? Of course.
Would it have been better? Might have accelerated where we were going.

If Nelson wins in NY we are singing a different tune about him. Maybe JVG goes to Miami to be with Riles?
Maybe he drinks the Nelson coolaid and becomes coach while Don and Donnie scout the Euros and prolong our dynasty?

Nice to think that but Riles left, Nelson was booted because Ewing was upset and had leverage. Whle Checketts was in charge he still answered to an owner. Eventually the owner got ride of Checketts not to long after. The new GM Grunfeld built a running team and JVG was on the way out until he unlikely took an 8th seed to the finals and got an automatic 2 extension (was in his contract if he did) and Grunfeld had to go.

Now you got Layden who had to deal with the Ewing mess.

Dallas underachieved for a long time and might have been the big mistake to let Nash go, but remember you had a very proactive Owner who was very involved and thought Nash was a bad long term investment because of his back. Nash was behind Kidd in PHX and Dallas did good with him coached by nelson.

The process eventually worked as DOnnie Nelson as GM contructed a team that eventually succeeded.

Silverfuel wrote:Are you seriously bringing up Don Nelson? The guy hasn't won crap! We should have given Riley what he wanted to stay. He is the one who keeps winning even as an executive.

What a joke thread. Setting history straight with an agenda of discounting Ewing, Riley, Van Gundy for someone that hasn't won a ring. Even Van Gundy has gotten further.

How many rings have we won post-Nelson? Better yet, how many winning seasons have we had? I'll wait.....

Nalod wrote:
Setting history straight was let some know tha Ewing was not as pure as he might have been remembered. I love the guy and his warrior approach was admired by me. I thought he gave everything he had on the court.

That is his legend, but like most athletes they are egocentric business people too and ewing at age 33 was on the decline.

No doubt we should have held on to Riley. I prefer he would have stuck. But you can't transpose his miami success and say difinitively it would have translated. Maybe we win 4 titles with him? Maybe none.

But, we know EWing at age 33 was going for a new and HUGE contract and Don Nelson was ahead of his time. He wanted Ewing gone. Look how it all unfolded, Three years later we go to the finals with a team that was running (without Ewing) and that was despite JVG who was not that kind of coach. I loved JVG and thought he did a great job. Maybe Nelson wins, maybe he does not but that was the direction the team was heading.

It made good business to keep Ewing and dump Nelson. Sure Don never wins his title. SAS got on the international thing early and it paid off big. Maybe we get Dirk instead? Maybe Shaq comes here?

Im only discussing the bonafide events that was in place, not conceptual. Riles left. He don't leave there is no Nelson and we don't have this discussion.

As far as "discrediting" riles, lets be real, Showtime was alreadyin place and they were already champs by the time he took over. He did a great job but its not like he was there and developed them.

I thought he did a better job "coaching" in NY with the players he had. "Stubburn" is used to label MDA and Riles was all that with Starks. He road the horse he came into town and stood by him. Bottom line is Knicks did not win. I thought he had that team playing at a high level which was based on its raw talent and emotionality. It was also its achiles heal.

IN Miami he basically could not get passed the KNicks and JVG, who like I said did a great job. Only the "fight Series" were they able to get buy knicks. I thought he burned those teams out and they should have gone further. Still, he did a great job.

Only until he got Shaq an wade together did he win, and that was after SVG was fired. He coached them half a season thru the playoffs.

As an Exec He would have been great in NY. I also think A nelson Era could have been special if things fell into place.

Lets not get too personal here, I backed my stuff up with a good article that is also an opinion piece. Im not taking a dump on the ewing era. My point is it should have ended sooner.

The next year we did get to the ECF's do you remember how awful Ewing was?

would history have been different if we traded ewing or let him walk? Of course.
Would it have been better? Might have accelerated where we were going.

If Nelson wins in NY we are singing a different tune about him. Maybe JVG goes to Miami to be with Riles?
Maybe he drinks the Nelson coolaid and becomes coach while Don and Donnie scout the Euros and prolong our dynasty?

Nice to think that but Riles left, Nelson was booted because Ewing was upset and had leverage. Whle Checketts was in charge he still answered to an owner. Eventually the owner got ride of Checketts not to long after. The new GM Grunfeld built a running team and JVG was on the way out until he unlikely took an 8th seed to the finals and got an automatic 2 extension (was in his contract if he did) and Grunfeld had to go.

Now you got Layden who had to deal with the Ewing mess.

Dallas underachieved for a long time and might have been the big mistake to let Nash go, but remember you had a very proactive Owner who was very involved and thought Nash was a bad long term investment because of his back. Nash was behind Kidd in PHX and Dallas did good with him coached by nelson.

The process eventually worked as DOnnie Nelson as GM contructed a team that eventually succeeded.

We had Miami beat in 97 if not for PJ Brown. Ewing averaged 23 & 10 that year as a 32yr old. We went toe to toe with Jordan and the Bulls that year. 2-2. Miami was swept by Chicago if I remember correctly

Youforgot a lot of important details over the years. It seems you are lumping the hobbled post Andrew Lang 34yr old 99 Ewing with the Don 30yr old Don Nelson Ewing

Also that 99 Ewing outplayed a much younger Alonzo Mourning

gunsnewing wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Setting history straight was let some know tha Ewing was not as pure as he might have been remembered. I love the guy and his warrior approach was admired by me. I thought he gave everything he had on the court.

That is his legend, but like most athletes they are egocentric business people too and ewing at age 33 was on the decline.

No doubt we should have held on to Riley. I prefer he would have stuck. But you can't transpose his miami success and say difinitively it would have translated. Maybe we win 4 titles with him? Maybe none.

But, we know EWing at age 33 was going for a new and HUGE contract and Don Nelson was ahead of his time. He wanted Ewing gone. Look how it all unfolded, Three years later we go to the finals with a team that was running (without Ewing) and that was despite JVG who was not that kind of coach. I loved JVG and thought he did a great job. Maybe Nelson wins, maybe he does not but that was the direction the team was heading.

It made good business to keep Ewing and dump Nelson. Sure Don never wins his title. SAS got on the international thing early and it paid off big. Maybe we get Dirk instead? Maybe Shaq comes here?

Im only discussing the bonafide events that was in place, not conceptual. Riles left. He don't leave there is no Nelson and we don't have this discussion.

As far as "discrediting" riles, lets be real, Showtime was alreadyin place and they were already champs by the time he took over. He did a great job but its not like he was there and developed them.

I thought he did a better job "coaching" in NY with the players he had. "Stubburn" is used to label MDA and Riles was all that with Starks. He road the horse he came into town and stood by him. Bottom line is Knicks did not win. I thought he had that team playing at a high level which was based on its raw talent and emotionality. It was also its achiles heal.

IN Miami he basically could not get passed the KNicks and JVG, who like I said did a great job. Only the "fight Series" were they able to get buy knicks. I thought he burned those teams out and they should have gone further. Still, he did a great job.

Only until he got Shaq an wade together did he win, and that was after SVG was fired. He coached them half a season thru the playoffs.

As an Exec He would have been great in NY. I also think A nelson Era could have been special if things fell into place.

Lets not get too personal here, I backed my stuff up with a good article that is also an opinion piece. Im not taking a dump on the ewing era. My point is it should have ended sooner.

The next year we did get to the ECF's do you remember how awful Ewing was?

would history have been different if we traded ewing or let him walk? Of course.
Would it have been better? Might have accelerated where we were going.

If Nelson wins in NY we are singing a different tune about him. Maybe JVG goes to Miami to be with Riles?
Maybe he drinks the Nelson coolaid and becomes coach while Don and Donnie scout the Euros and prolong our dynasty?

Nice to think that but Riles left, Nelson was booted because Ewing was upset and had leverage. Whle Checketts was in charge he still answered to an owner. Eventually the owner got ride of Checketts not to long after. The new GM Grunfeld built a running team and JVG was on the way out until he unlikely took an 8th seed to the finals and got an automatic 2 extension (was in his contract if he did) and Grunfeld had to go.

Now you got Layden who had to deal with the Ewing mess.

Dallas underachieved for a long time and might have been the big mistake to let Nash go, but remember you had a very proactive Owner who was very involved and thought Nash was a bad long term investment because of his back. Nash was behind Kidd in PHX and Dallas did good with him coached by nelson.

The process eventually worked as DOnnie Nelson as GM contructed a team that eventually succeeded.

We had Miami beat in 97 if not for PJ Brown. Ewing averaged 23 & 10 that year as a 32yr old. We went toe to toe with Jordan and the Bulls that year. 2-2. Miami was swept by Chicago if I remember correctly

Youforgot a lot of important details over the years. It seems you are lumping the hobbled post Andrew Lang 34yr old 99 Ewing with the Don 30yr old Don Nelson Ewing

Also that 99 Ewing outplayed a much younger Alonzo Mourning

Ewing came back as well as anyone could after his wrist injury. He was an inspiration at his age to have come back as well as he did.

at age 37 he was making 18.5mil year and was slowing his team down. Can't deny what was happening and he broke down in the playoffs camby was able to fly and the team changed its face.

Basically if you let him walk or trade then we leave some good years left on the table as he had value either for trade or another team to sign him. I know 97' was our best shot and if not for PJ midget tossing Ward we go further. Maybe not 97' but a shaq led Knicks? And no doubt the roster is a lot different so its hard to really transpose that Spree actually plays for us, or Ward is our PG. Maybe we hit our stride a few years later.

Yes, Knicks win in 97' EWing could have played in a wheel chair and nobody would have said a thing. But thats not how it ended and did it?

We only dealing with what we know. 96' we were at the crossroads and the chess board was set up. Not hypothetical "What ifs", but it was real. Maybe Shaq does not come in a trade, but maybe we get picks for ewing that can either be used or traded. Maybe Shaq comes to knicks as a free agent and with assets from a ewing trade we are set. Way too many things. WE only know Nelson was trying to change things and Ewing resisted. Ewing won. It was good for while too.

That was 17 years ago. The rafters are not flying anything new.

Nalod wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Setting history straight was let some know tha Ewing was not as pure as he might have been remembered. I love the guy and his warrior approach was admired by me. I thought he gave everything he had on the court.

That is his legend, but like most athletes they are egocentric business people too and ewing at age 33 was on the decline.

No doubt we should have held on to Riley. I prefer he would have stuck. But you can't transpose his miami success and say difinitively it would have translated. Maybe we win 4 titles with him? Maybe none.

But, we know EWing at age 33 was going for a new and HUGE contract and Don Nelson was ahead of his time. He wanted Ewing gone. Look how it all unfolded, Three years later we go to the finals with a team that was running (without Ewing) and that was despite JVG who was not that kind of coach. I loved JVG and thought he did a great job. Maybe Nelson wins, maybe he does not but that was the direction the team was heading.

It made good business to keep Ewing and dump Nelson. Sure Don never wins his title. SAS got on the international thing early and it paid off big. Maybe we get Dirk instead? Maybe Shaq comes here?

Im only discussing the bonafide events that was in place, not conceptual. Riles left. He don't leave there is no Nelson and we don't have this discussion.

As far as "discrediting" riles, lets be real, Showtime was alreadyin place and they were already champs by the time he took over. He did a great job but its not like he was there and developed them.

I thought he did a better job "coaching" in NY with the players he had. "Stubburn" is used to label MDA and Riles was all that with Starks. He road the horse he came into town and stood by him. Bottom line is Knicks did not win. I thought he had that team playing at a high level which was based on its raw talent and emotionality. It was also its achiles heal.

IN Miami he basically could not get passed the KNicks and JVG, who like I said did a great job. Only the "fight Series" were they able to get buy knicks. I thought he burned those teams out and they should have gone further. Still, he did a great job.

Only until he got Shaq an wade together did he win, and that was after SVG was fired. He coached them half a season thru the playoffs.

As an Exec He would have been great in NY. I also think A nelson Era could have been special if things fell into place.

Lets not get too personal here, I backed my stuff up with a good article that is also an opinion piece. Im not taking a dump on the ewing era. My point is it should have ended sooner.

The next year we did get to the ECF's do you remember how awful Ewing was?

would history have been different if we traded ewing or let him walk? Of course.
Would it have been better? Might have accelerated where we were going.

If Nelson wins in NY we are singing a different tune about him. Maybe JVG goes to Miami to be with Riles?
Maybe he drinks the Nelson coolaid and becomes coach while Don and Donnie scout the Euros and prolong our dynasty?

Nice to think that but Riles left, Nelson was booted because Ewing was upset and had leverage. Whle Checketts was in charge he still answered to an owner. Eventually the owner got ride of Checketts not to long after. The new GM Grunfeld built a running team and JVG was on the way out until he unlikely took an 8th seed to the finals and got an automatic 2 extension (was in his contract if he did) and Grunfeld had to go.

Now you got Layden who had to deal with the Ewing mess.

Dallas underachieved for a long time and might have been the big mistake to let Nash go, but remember you had a very proactive Owner who was very involved and thought Nash was a bad long term investment because of his back. Nash was behind Kidd in PHX and Dallas did good with him coached by nelson.

The process eventually worked as DOnnie Nelson as GM contructed a team that eventually succeeded.

We had Miami beat in 97 if not for PJ Brown. Ewing averaged 23 & 10 that year as a 32yr old. We went toe to toe with Jordan and the Bulls that year. 2-2. Miami was swept by Chicago if I remember correctly

Youforgot a lot of important details over the years. It seems you are lumping the hobbled post Andrew Lang 34yr old 99 Ewing with the Don 30yr old Don Nelson Ewing

Also that 99 Ewing outplayed a much younger Alonzo Mourning

Yes exactly. The agenda is obvious here. Two days ago he was saying we should tank until we get lucky in the draft. Today he posts an article about how awesome Don Nelson was if he had traded for Shaq. There is no consistency. I don't know why I bother. I will stop now though. Another joke thread.

Ewing played in 11 of the 20 playoff games that year. His wrist and knees were problematic.

Two days ago I never said we should tank. We don't do that around here. We are not set up to tank. There is a right way to tank and a wrong way. Knicks business model won't work.

PHilly is tanking the right way. They have a good rookie, they have refusal on E-Turner who is getting his chance, and Norlens on deck rehabbing, and they likley get a good pick. We can't do that.

We can go round and round all day on this, Knicks SHOULD draft a pilar stone player but it is what it is.

And so is history.

Joke thread is to play pretend. IN the mecca we stare reality in the face and deal with it.