No GM rebuilds unless the owner is on board to reconcile what those numbers could mean. Some teams need the stream of revenue to support debt. SOme owners will bite the bullet longer term that they can make that money back with a long term winning franchise and a powerful branding. Its an investment of sorts.

Ever think what the brand "San Antonio Spurs" represents? Its a successful image.

Clippers owner made money for years with lousy team and when Sterling satisfied his debt and owned the team outright he started spending money. This is a guy who kept underpaying Elgin Baylor as his GM but now pays CP3 and Doc Rivers top money. THis is just one example. Mike Heisley who owned the Grizz moved Pau to diversify the team and spent to get it to win. The attendance swelled and he sold the team. Another recent example of the owner driving the decisions based on business. Jerry Buss was in on every major decision WITH his Gm's over the years. Think Cube don't run things in Dallas? Think Danny Ainge can blow up his team and rebuild without his owner?

For those who blame any NY GM for the signing of Amare does not understand business. Think a guy like Donnie could take on an uninsured 100million dollar contract and think long term its a good idea? This is the guy who has has been with the Pacers for 30 plus years and basically has been the architect of what they do. Its the Simon family in Indy that sets the directive of how the franchise to be run and basically its been Donnie and Larry Bird doing the same thing over many years. Who decides they should not starphuch? Owner. In fact, Simon could have moved the franchise before the last arena was built. Owner determined they can succeed longer term in a small market by building it via the draft and player development in new ERA CBA. Spurs draft George hill at 26th pick, trade to indy for 8th pick who becomes Kawai Leonard. Win-win!!!!! Simon and the Pacers, like everyone else new a strike was gonna happen and owners knew to prepare for a long war they would win. Who objected to CBA? Dolan. Who's the better team? Knicks are more valuable as a franchise but that don't do a thing for the fans does it?

Dolan gave you Isiah. Even Isiah had to convince Dolan that his scheme would work. Many posters were dead against Isiah and the Trade that was Marbury because of his reputation. But Dolan had starphuch in his eyes and Isiah did a good sales job. At any point Dolan could have rejected Isiah. At any point he could have looked at the dysfunction that became Anuchagate and put a stop to it. At any point Steve Francis does not become a knick. Who do you think gave Isiah the money to spend? Who do you think gave Isiah the directive?

I blame Dolan for McDyss because no rookie lackey type GM like Layden could do that kind of trade with the full backing of his owner. In fact, I'd blame dolan because Dice was a star who could have filled seats! See the pattern?

Dolan Renovated the Building but not the roster. I think Dolan did not understand the finance of the NBA post CBA and its why he has Mills now. How do I know this? Look at the roster and look at our assets. We are thin. Cap space is all we have to hang our hopes for. Kevin Love in two years? who plays guard? Who plays center?

Seriously, you gonna blame Donnie? MDA? Melo? This is not Melo's fault. He is a high volume scorer who plays a style that could be conducive to winning with the right roster and coach around him. If thats not possible, then don't trade for him. Wrong coach and roster was depleted.

Time to trade melo and move on. Of course we don't have leverage to get a good deal and our owner prefers to have a star attraction. Its not about "winning", its about revenue.

So my take is Dolan sets the agenda and hires accordingly. What is up with Mills, McInsey, Metrics, and CAA I have no idea.
If its a change in organizational decision process that allows greater input from others that would give me some faith.

Its Christmas after all! Hope.

Nalod wrote:Any team that rebuilds knows that loses in revenue from lower attendance and lower viewing ratings. Those numbers also translate to a lower advertising and endorsement rate.

No GM rebuilds unless the owner is on board to reconcile what those numbers could mean. Some teams need the stream of revenue to support debt. SOme owners will bite the bullet longer term that they can make that money back with a long term winning franchise and a powerful branding. Its an investment of sorts.

Ever think what the brand "San Antonio Spurs" represents? Its a successful image.

Clippers owner made money for years with lousy team and when Sterling satisfied his debt and owned the team outright he started spending money. This is a guy who kept underpaying Elgin Baylor as his GM but now pays CP3 and Doc Rivers top money. THis is just one example. Mike Heisley who owned the Grizz moved Pau to diversify the team and spent to get it to win. The attendance swelled and he sold the team. Another recent example of the owner driving the decisions based on business. Jerry Buss was in on every major decision WITH his Gm's over the years. Think Cube don't run things in Dallas? Think Danny Ainge can blow up his team and rebuild without his owner?

For those who blame any NY GM for the signing of Amare does not understand business. Think a guy like Donnie could take on an uninsured 100million dollar contract and think long term its a good idea? This is the guy who has has been with the Pacers for 30 plus years and basically has been the architect of what they do. Its the Simon family in Indy that sets the directive of how the franchise to be run and basically its been Donnie and Larry Bird doing the same thing over many years. Who decides they should not starphuch? Owner. In fact, Simon could have moved the franchise before the last arena was built. Owner determined they can succeed longer term in a small market by building it via the draft and player development in new ERA CBA. Spurs draft George hill at 26th pick, trade to indy for 8th pick who becomes Kawai Leonard. Win-win!!!!! Simon and the Pacers, like everyone else new a strike was gonna happen and owners knew to prepare for a long war they would win. Who objected to CBA? Dolan. Who's the better team? Knicks are more valuable as a franchise but that don't do a thing for the fans does it?

Dolan gave you Isiah. Even Isiah had to convince Dolan that his scheme would work. Many posters were dead against Isiah and the Trade that was Marbury because of his reputation. But Dolan had starphuch in his eyes and Isiah did a good sales job. At any point Dolan could have rejected Isiah. At any point he could have looked at the dysfunction that became Anuchagate and put a stop to it. At any point Steve Francis does not become a knick. Who do you think gave Isiah the money to spend? Who do you think gave Isiah the directive?

I blame Dolan for McDyss because no rookie lackey type GM like Layden could do that kind of trade with the full backing of his owner. In fact, I'd blame dolan because Dice was a star who could have filled seats! See the pattern?

Dolan Renovated the Building but not the roster. I think Dolan did not understand the finance of the NBA post CBA and its why he has Mills now. How do I know this? Look at the roster and look at our assets. We are thin. Cap space is all we have to hang our hopes for. Kevin Love in two years? who plays guard? Who plays center?

Seriously, you gonna blame Donnie? MDA? Melo? This is not Melo's fault. He is a high volume scorer who plays a style that could be conducive to winning with the right roster and coach around him. If thats not possible, then don't trade for him. Wrong coach and roster was depleted.

Time to trade melo and move on. Of course we don't have leverage to get a good deal and our owner prefers to have a star attraction. Its not about "winning", its about revenue.

So my take is Dolan sets the agenda and hires accordingly. What is up with Mills, McInsey, Metrics, and CAA I have no idea.
If its a change in organizational decision process that allows greater input from others that would give me some faith.

Its Christmas after all! Hope.

Well of course Dolan have to sign off on such a significant decision...But it is up to the GM to find that player who he thinks the Knicks should take such a risk on, no????...If that is not the case, then why have a GM???...Why does Dolan pay these stiffs 4/5 mil per if he is the one ultimately picking the players and signing them???..Are we to believe Dolan is now in the same position as Jerry Jones???...Donnie is not free from fault here...You certainly didn't give Isiah the same pass u think Donnie should get...

You have every right to pin the Melo trade on Dolan because he orchestration it against Donnie's wishes...Donnie wanted full autonomy when he resigned...He didn't want Dolan to meddle in his affairs as he did with Melo...

When folks on this board was pointing fingers at who was responsible for bringing Steve Francis here, was it Isiah or LB, you defended LB until the cows came home and pointed the finger at Isiah..Now you blame Dolan because it suits you narrative???

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:Any team that rebuilds knows that loses in revenue from lower attendance and lower viewing ratings. Those numbers also translate to a lower advertising and endorsement rate.

No GM rebuilds unless the owner is on board to reconcile what those numbers could mean. Some teams need the stream of revenue to support debt. SOme owners will bite the bullet longer term that they can make that money back with a long term winning franchise and a powerful branding. Its an investment of sorts.

Ever think what the brand "San Antonio Spurs" represents? Its a successful image.

Clippers owner made money for years with lousy team and when Sterling satisfied his debt and owned the team outright he started spending money. This is a guy who kept underpaying Elgin Baylor as his GM but now pays CP3 and Doc Rivers top money. THis is just one example. Mike Heisley who owned the Grizz moved Pau to diversify the team and spent to get it to win. The attendance swelled and he sold the team. Another recent example of the owner driving the decisions based on business. Jerry Buss was in on every major decision WITH his Gm's over the years. Think Cube don't run things in Dallas? Think Danny Ainge can blow up his team and rebuild without his owner?

For those who blame any NY GM for the signing of Amare does not understand business. Think a guy like Donnie could take on an uninsured 100million dollar contract and think long term its a good idea? This is the guy who has has been with the Pacers for 30 plus years and basically has been the architect of what they do. Its the Simon family in Indy that sets the directive of how the franchise to be run and basically its been Donnie and Larry Bird doing the same thing over many years. Who decides they should not starphuch? Owner. In fact, Simon could have moved the franchise before the last arena was built. Owner determined they can succeed longer term in a small market by building it via the draft and player development in new ERA CBA. Spurs draft George hill at 26th pick, trade to indy for 8th pick who becomes Kawai Leonard. Win-win!!!!! Simon and the Pacers, like everyone else new a strike was gonna happen and owners knew to prepare for a long war they would win. Who objected to CBA? Dolan. Who's the better team? Knicks are more valuable as a franchise but that don't do a thing for the fans does it?

Dolan gave you Isiah. Even Isiah had to convince Dolan that his scheme would work. Many posters were dead against Isiah and the Trade that was Marbury because of his reputation. But Dolan had starphuch in his eyes and Isiah did a good sales job. At any point Dolan could have rejected Isiah. At any point he could have looked at the dysfunction that became Anuchagate and put a stop to it. At any point Steve Francis does not become a knick. Who do you think gave Isiah the money to spend? Who do you think gave Isiah the directive?

I blame Dolan for McDyss because no rookie lackey type GM like Layden could do that kind of trade with the full backing of his owner. In fact, I'd blame dolan because Dice was a star who could have filled seats! See the pattern?

Dolan Renovated the Building but not the roster. I think Dolan did not understand the finance of the NBA post CBA and its why he has Mills now. How do I know this? Look at the roster and look at our assets. We are thin. Cap space is all we have to hang our hopes for. Kevin Love in two years? who plays guard? Who plays center?

Seriously, you gonna blame Donnie? MDA? Melo? This is not Melo's fault. He is a high volume scorer who plays a style that could be conducive to winning with the right roster and coach around him. If thats not possible, then don't trade for him. Wrong coach and roster was depleted.

Time to trade melo and move on. Of course we don't have leverage to get a good deal and our owner prefers to have a star attraction. Its not about "winning", its about revenue.

So my take is Dolan sets the agenda and hires accordingly. What is up with Mills, McInsey, Metrics, and CAA I have no idea.
If its a change in organizational decision process that allows greater input from others that would give me some faith.

Its Christmas after all! Hope.

Well of course Dolan have to sign off on such a significant decision...But it is up to the GM to find that player who he thinks the Knicks should take such a risk on, no????...If that is not the case, then why have a GM???...Why does Dolan pay these stiffs 4/5 mil per if he is the one ultimately picking the players and signing them???..Are we to believe Dolan is now in the same position as Jerry Jones???...Donnie is not free from fault here...You certainly didn't give Isiah the same pass u think Donnie should get...

You have every right to pin the Melo trade on Dolan because he orchestration it against Donnie's wishes...Donnie wanted full autonomy when he resigned...He didn't want Dolan to meddle in his affairs as he did with Melo...

When folks on this board was pointing fingers at who was responsible for bringing Steve Francis here, was it Isiah or LB, you defended LB until the cows came home and pointed the finger at Isiah..Now you blame Dolan because it suits you narrative???

Why would he ask for full powers?

Think!!!

Donnie don't have the money, Dolan does.

CrushAlot wrote:Bird has been running things since 2003 in Indy. In regards to the current group of Pacers, Bird drafted Granger, Hibbert, George, Stephenson, drafted and traded Kawhi for George Hill, signed David West... The one guy on the Pacers that Walsh acquired is Mahini. They moved his other acquisitions out from his year return. Bird has really done a spectactular job. Walsh has not been very impressive in his later years. Hiring D'Antoni I believe was a huge mistake. His first round draft picks all could have been better and several could have been franchise fortune changers. And yeah I think he is to blame for Amare. He was missing out on every big name free agent in the summer of 2010 and he had mortgaged too much to put the knicks in position to possibly sign LBJ. He had to come away with something to show for the two years of losing and moving assets to prepare for making a big acquisition in the summer of 2010. Phoenix was offering Amare a deal based on what the doctors had told them in regards to Amare's knees post micro fracture surgery. Walsh offered more years and the max and got the deal done. Similar to D'Antoni choosing NY over the Bulls, Walsh offered more money and didn't question D'Antoni about defense.

They basically just threw guys together rather than look to build a team that made sense. Just grab Amar'e desperately hoping to lure Lebron, then when you don't get Lebron there's no plan B. Sell off all assets to get Melo, but not really making sense to have Melo and STAT as the core of your team. The need was to add a PG which would've tied everything together. At least then it would make sense to have MDA here with Melo and STAT. Instead you go for Tyson, which again didn't address the most important sport on the floor, PG. I think Dolan had a lot more to do with all these decisions than he's given credit for. I think Dolan and his crew were in the back getting in the way of anything Walsh would've done if it was left up to him alone. One way you can tell is how Dolan just jumped in and took over in the Melo negotiations. That's not the move of an Owner who has been sitting back and letting stuff happen. He and his cronies had been discussing the developments all along.

Nalod wrote:Pacers process continued.

Donnie don't have the money, Dolan does.

Nalod wrote:

arkrud wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Pacers process continued.

Donnie don't have the money, Dolan does.

Walsh's last coach was Isaiah. Bird took over, hired Carlisle and the team won 13 more games. Bird has a much better track record of success with the team and he is responsible for every guy on the current team except for Mahini.

Yep. Bird was very good learner and took a lot of knowledge from Walsh.
Also having 2 great minds always a plus comparing to having just one little screwed Jimmy mind.

Donnie was president, hired Bird to be GM. All on board. Bird canned Isiah, Donnie once said it was his mistake. They'd finish in first place then tank in the playoffs.

Simon had Bird and donnie continue the process. They had some bad years.

I don't hold GM's like rock stars and blame them for everyting, nor praise for everything. Its an ongoing process of hits and misses!

Donnie been back with pacers two years now. He is in the background and part of a process. Whose in charge? Pacer owner.

They also hired Vogel who was unproven. Kudos to the Pacers for developing Hibbert. We don't do that do we? This guy would have been a mess by now.

Nalod wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:

arkrud wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Pacers process continued.

Donnie don't have the money, Dolan does.

Walsh's last coach was Isaiah. Bird took over, hired Carlisle and the team won 13 more games. Bird has a much better track record of success with the team and he is responsible for every guy on the current team except for Mahini.

Yep. Bird was very good learner and took a lot of knowledge from Walsh.
Also having 2 great minds always a plus comparing to having just one little screwed Jimmy mind.

Donnie was president, hired Bird to be GM. All on board. Bird canned Isiah, Donnie once said it was his mistake. They'd finish in first place then tank in the playoffs.

Simon had Bird and donnie continue the process. They had some bad years.

I don't hold GM's like rock stars and blame them for everyting, nor praise for everything. Its an ongoing process of hits and misses!

Donnie been back with pacers two years now. He is in the background and part of a process. Whose in charge? Pacer owner.

They also hired Vogel who was unproven. Kudos to the Pacers for developing Hibbert. We don't do that do we? This guy would have been a mess by now.

Here is the part of the process Bird completed while Walsh was running the Knicks. He drafted George, Stephenson, Hansbrough, Hibbert, signed West, traded for Hill, and hired Frank Vogel as head coach. He also traded for Collison who was turned into Mahini by Walsh.

Look too close you don't see it.

I'll say it real slow so you understand.........

Walsh, Bird, vogel are part of the process..............

The process by the owner. He hires these guys to do the job he wants. he sets the directive. Want to blame Layden for this, Isiah for that, Walsh for what ever, blah blah.........

The owner is in charge, the GM follows the plan. Keep changing it or not let it run its course you got what you got.

If Dolan has brought in McInsey to figure out what some of us know, then maybe hope will prevail. Maybe they tell him to stay the Phuch out.

Some fans would rather point fingers and be happy when starphuch changes happen.

You think if Dolan bought in RC buford and Pop but then insisted on Melo as it went down we'd be contending? Nope, you need an organizational plan.

So one more time, study teams that are suceesful, or have been. Especially the ones that have owners that allow the team to rebuild. Indy was in the 2000 finals. Indy made mistakes, Jerry west made mistakes, Kupchek made mistakes, Buford makes mistakes......But the constant is the process, and the owner sets the directive. Jerry Buss allowed his people to succeed. Dolan does nothing even close to this.

Go ahead, blame who ever.

When a powerhouse is built throught the draft and trades in the three years one guy leaves and works someplace else you don't have tolook too closely. Everything that is good about the pacers right now happened while Walsh was in ny. I don't see how you can dispute that picks, trades, and hires that were made while Walsh worked for the Knicks somehow have something to do with Walsh. The 'process' that you describe was incredibly productive when Walsh was with the Knicks. The core, the head coach, everything except Mahini happened because of Larry bird.

It was pretty bad defending him while his tenure was going on but now years after seeing the severe damage his tenure caused to still defend him? Wow

Nalod wrote:Guys, Walsh leaves Indy and they do the same thing for the last 30 years. Walsh goes back and its business as usual. They have a system that works for them. Walsh was part of a long term structure put in place years ago. Teams have ebbs and flows.

It don't matter when a succesful team changes GM if they run the same system. SAS has lost front office guys all the time and they do the same thing.

Why did Auerbach win in boston after his coaching days were thru? Why did they win so much? He had a way to evaluate players and rarely ever changed. Even when he made a mistake, he believed in his system.

Am I praising Indy or bird?

Larry stepped away for a year and came back.

FROM ESPN ARTICLE LAST YEAR:

He and Walsh worked together as a team for five years before Walsh left to join the New York Knicks and Bird took over most of the day-to-day decisions with the Pacers.

Under Bird's guidance, the Pacers returned to the playoffs in 2011. Bird's shrewd moves included a draft-day trade for Roy Hibbert and another draft-day trade for George Hill, the signing of free-agent power forward David West and the selections of Paul George and Lance Stephenson in the 2010 draft. Those five, and Danny Granger, produced the franchise's first playoffs series win in seven years last season, and it was those five, without Granger, that pushed Miami to the limit in Indiana's first conference finals appearance in nine years.

"We are all very happy to have Larry back," team owner Herb Simon said. "Larry had a huge impact on this team and where it is now, so it's fitting that he comes back at this time. Donnie has been a friend and a valuable contributor to the franchise and will continue to be both. I wanted him to agree to stay in some capacity as I believe with Larry and Kevin, it gives us three of the best basketball minds in the business."

Fans like some of you can't grasp this organizational concept and instead are looking for one man and one track record to pin praise or blame. We all forget quietly they have Kevin Pritchard in the front office. Bird was burnt out and if you really want to look at him as being burnt out the year before he took a sabbatical then so beit.

My take is they have been on track rebuilding and keeping to a format regardless of who is driving the bus, and it seems like its Herb Simon and has been for years. SOme of you would rather look at "Who signed granger to that long term deal!!!!" Or "Who drafted home, blah blah......" What does it matter because teams make mistakes and sometimes get lucky.

In short, Nalod in praise of the process that keeps Donnie, Pritchard and Larry in the mix. Like Donnie, Larry was welcome back into the team. Larry was gone Donnie was back for a while. Again, it was pritchard likely running the day to day. And while Donnie was not under contract in NY I can be confident he was involved in all decisions regardless of title. Not to say his was the final say, but as PART OF AN ORGANIZATIONAL PROCESS!!!!!!