Panos wrote:Hey fishy,
I get what you're saying and you're probably right about most of it. The guy is an elite scorer. I just don't like the flavor of basketball that having him as your main offensive cog presents. I feel that if he could keep his head up and look for the open man he could get 3 more assists per game, but the change to the flow of the offense would be extreme. I'm not a fan of his black hole offense. I feel like this difference in approach between him and Ledouche is what makes the difference between a winner and a scorer. Nevermind that Ledouche has Wade. He is a playmaker. More than scoring efficiency, I think this matters way more.

But we have seen him win here. We saw him lead us to a 54 win team last year and it was legit. The holes you talk about above are 100% legit. Is Melo to blame for that? Or does he really have nobody to pass to? Both, and the knock on Melo is he hasnt changed what he CAN change. Its fair. I 100% agree with you.

But if I had any question about Melo's place as an elite talent I think he fairly answered it last year. 28/7 and 54 wins when the next best scorers on the team are JR Smith and Raymond Felton you did a damn good job and finishing 3rd in MVP votes was a good measure of his impact as a player.

If we lose Melo for nothing it sets the Knicks back 10 years, bottom line.

at this point I actually view his comment about testing FA as a positive, not a knock on him. Its the NBA now. You cant just pay guys to get them. You have to offer them something more, and all the big FA signings last few years I think demonstrate that. I have no problem with not building about Melo, but we damn better get good value.

fishmike wrote:

Panos wrote:Hey fishy,
I get what you're saying and you're probably right about most of it. The guy is an elite scorer. I just don't like the flavor of basketball that having him as your main offensive cog presents. I feel that if he could keep his head up and look for the open man he could get 3 more assists per game, but the change to the flow of the offense would be extreme. I'm not a fan of his black hole offense. I feel like this difference in approach between him and Ledouche is what makes the difference between a winner and a scorer. Nevermind that Ledouche has Wade. He is a playmaker. More than scoring efficiency, I think this matters way more.

preaching to the choir. Remember, Im the guy who broke down his playoff stats to illuminate exactly what you said. Its not Melo's lack of support, its Melo. Dude shoots less than 40% in half of his 60+ playoff games. Thats terrible.

But we have seen him win here. We saw him lead us to a 54 win team last year and it was legit. The holes you talk about above are 100% legit. Is Melo to blame for that? Or does he really have nobody to pass to? Both, and the knock on Melo is he hasnt changed what he CAN change. Its fair. I 100% agree with you.

But if I had any question about Melo's place as an elite talent I think he fairly answered it last year. 28/7 and 54 wins when the next best scorers on the team are JR Smith and Raymond Felton you did a damn good job and finishing 3rd in MVP votes was a good measure of his impact as a player.

If we lose Melo for nothing it sets the Knicks back 10 years, bottom line.

at this point I actually view his comment about testing FA as a positive, not a knock on him. Its the NBA now. You cant just pay guys to get them. You have to offer them something more, and all the big FA signings last few years I think demonstrate that. I have no problem with not building about Melo, but we damn better get good value.

Not so sure. I think great players manage to get role players to overachieve. I think next to Melo our role players underachieve. I think they get stagnant, complacent to not move without the ball. Again, Lin was not a savior, but he made Novak and Landry Fields look awesome. Who has Melo helped look awesome?

he does not and should not get a pass. stop trying to put lipstick on a pig-- it's getting annoying

franco12 wrote:sorry, but MJ regularly passed to BJ Armstrong and Steve Kerr.

Yes, he had Pippen- and that made all the difference. But he doesn't even try to pass to these guys.

When I read comments like this on this board, I question how many games you people actually watch. Melo passes the ball plenty..does he miss to find the open player sometimes? of course..but its very easy for us, who are watching the game on TV at a 45-55 degree angle, to see the open player, or where the breakdown in the defense is, than it is when you're on the court. Anyone who actually plays or officiates sports, knows this.

dk7th wrote:his fatal mistake was allowing himself to be traded to the knicks instead of waiting to become a free agent. greed and stupidity and believing your own hype led him to this pass. he had a way to leverage his situation which at worst would have been a one year rental to a team he doesn't want to go to. at best he hamstrings the nuggets and goes freely to his desired destination while leaving the knicks somewhat intact and in a good situation to continue building a championship team.

he does not and should not get a pass. stop trying to put lipstick on a pig-- it's getting annoying

This is another one I love...Knick fans actually wanted Melo to leave money on the table. Who does that?? Dolan and Walsh were willing to give this man a MAX deal and FANS wanted Melo to say, "it's ok...I dont need that much". lol.

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:his fatal mistake was allowing himself to be traded to the knicks instead of waiting to become a free agent. greed and stupidity and believing your own hype led him to this pass. he had a way to leverage his situation which at worst would have been a one year rental to a team he doesn't want to go to. at best he hamstrings the nuggets and goes freely to his desired destination while leaving the knicks somewhat intact and in a good situation to continue building a championship team.

he does not and should not get a pass. stop trying to put lipstick on a pig-- it's getting annoying

You honestly would have done that for the sake of an organization you haven't even played for yet? What happens if the lockout cuts max salaries in half? What happens if you get a career ending injury and don't get the next contract? Put yourself in his shoes and be realistic. You don't pass on a max extending now for an uncertain future just to play with gallo and chandler. No realistic human being can expect that from him.

fishmike wrote:Some folks here obviously hate this player so you know what you can expect from those folks.

For me Melo has been mostly wait and see. I did NOT like the trade but end of the day is was very fair. Gallo and Chandler are two guys who miss a ton of time for various reasons. Mosgov is cute to have but low impact and high cost all things considered. Chandler/Gallo/Mos = $20mm in salary. Melo = $21mm in salary. At face value this isnt even close... the Knicks got a steal in terms of value and impact. Only including the picks makes it even close to palpable for the Nuggets.

I also hated losing a young and very good Felton (at the time) for an old Billups. Wrong their too... Felton simply sucks. No injury excuses as he's out of shape. If he was just hurt fine.. you get a pass. Cant control that, but he's hurt and FAT.

When Melo came here Amare was a full blown star. He was playing great and it certainly seemed like Melo had another star player to go to the wars with. Out with Billups in with Tyson. Knicks are still pretty good and even without Amare still win 54 games last year.

Last year Melo did his job. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He was an all star, won the scoring title and had some totally dominating stretches where the Knicks had big runs in the win column averaging 30/10 in April comes to mind.

So if your Melo its fair to look around the league at your peers. Other guys with elite stats, big contracts who are expected to lead their teams to a lot of wins and playoff runs. Max players.

Lets look at the big money guys:
1. Kobe Bryant $30,453,000
2. Dirk Nowitzki $22,721,381
3. Gilbert Arenas $22,346,536
4. Amare Stoudemire $21,679,893
5. Carmelo Anthony $21,490,000
6. Joe Johnson $21,466,718
7. Dwight Howard $20,513,178
8. Pau Gasol $19,285,850
9. Chris Bosh $19,067,500
9. LeBron James $19,067,500
11. Kevin Durant $18,773,176
12. Chris Paul $18,668,431
13. Dwyane Wade $18,536,000
14. Deron Williams $18,466,130
15. Rudy Gay $17,888,932
16. Zach Randolph $17,800,000
17. Brandon Roy $17,779,458
18. Derrick Rose $17,632,688
19. Blake Griffin $16,402,500
20. Paul Pierce $15,333,334
21. Carlos Boozer $15,300,000
22. Marc Gasol $14,860,523
23. Brook Lopez $14,694,000
24. Kevin Love $14,693,906
24. Russell Westbrook $14,693,906
26. Emeka Okafor $14,544,687
27. Luol Deng $14,312,125
28. Roy Hibbert $14,283,844
28. Eric Gordon $14,283,844
30. Andrew Bogut $14,200,000

Durant has Ibaka/Westbrook (and vise versa)
Lebron has Wade and Bosh
Joe Johnson has Deron, KG, PP, Bropez
Kobe and Gasol dont win without each other (or Shaq)
Rose has Knoa and Boozer
CP3 has Blake and Jordon (the best PGs have pretty epic frontcourts)
Love and Sota look a lot better when Rubio plays like a star right?

So if your Melo, coming off a 54 win season, you see the Knicks offseason moves what is your reaction?

Some folks love to blame Melo, but it seems more and more that Melo's comments, regardless of context are appropriate and warrented.

Its todays NBA. You dont just get max money. You go where they are going to set you up to succeed as well.

When other stars have left for other teams why did they leave? Usually to play with better talent. If Lebron, Dwight, Bosh, etc wanted to come here fans would be pretty pumped.

So why is Melo vilified for being honest? Management laid out a lot of get him here. What have they done to keep him here? I mean we all talk about this massive dysfunction because its plain as day. While TFK would have you believe Melo is the cause the dysfunction was here long before he go here.

So if your Melo why are you staying here in this zoo when LA or whoever else will pay you similar to not be the poster boy of the sh!t show this organization calls basketball?

I think you keep saying that, to convince yourself that is true.. but the numbers don't support what you are saying. true those guys have been injured, but the record speaks fish.. since being traded, denver has had a better record than the knicks.. so you can talk all you want about impact.. the numbers don't support you...

As dk said, this post is about putting lipstick on a pig... what are you trying to justify here fish?

I just don't get it..

Last year Melo did his job. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He was an all star, won the scoring title and had some totally dominating stretches where the Knicks had big runs in the win column averaging 30/10 in April comes to mind.

ok you feel he did his job.. it wasn't good enough and certainly doesn't justify the trade fish... did he do his job the year before? how about this year fish? is he doing his job?

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:Some folks here obviously hate this player so you know what you can expect from those folks.

For me Melo has been mostly wait and see. I did NOT like the trade but end of the day is was very fair. Gallo and Chandler are two guys who miss a ton of time for various reasons. Mosgov is cute to have but low impact and high cost all things considered. Chandler/Gallo/Mos = $20mm in salary. Melo = $21mm in salary. At face value this isnt even close... the Knicks got a steal in terms of value and impact. Only including the picks makes it even close to palpable for the Nuggets.

I also hated losing a young and very good Felton (at the time) for an old Billups. Wrong their too... Felton simply sucks. No injury excuses as he's out of shape. If he was just hurt fine.. you get a pass. Cant control that, but he's hurt and FAT.

When Melo came here Amare was a full blown star. He was playing great and it certainly seemed like Melo had another star player to go to the wars with. Out with Billups in with Tyson. Knicks are still pretty good and even without Amare still win 54 games last year.

Last year Melo did his job. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He was an all star, won the scoring title and had some totally dominating stretches where the Knicks had big runs in the win column averaging 30/10 in April comes to mind.

So if your Melo its fair to look around the league at your peers. Other guys with elite stats, big contracts who are expected to lead their teams to a lot of wins and playoff runs. Max players.

Lets look at the big money guys:
1. Kobe Bryant $30,453,000
2. Dirk Nowitzki $22,721,381
3. Gilbert Arenas $22,346,536
4. Amare Stoudemire $21,679,893
5. Carmelo Anthony $21,490,000
6. Joe Johnson $21,466,718
7. Dwight Howard $20,513,178
8. Pau Gasol $19,285,850
9. Chris Bosh $19,067,500
9. LeBron James $19,067,500
11. Kevin Durant $18,773,176
12. Chris Paul $18,668,431
13. Dwyane Wade $18,536,000
14. Deron Williams $18,466,130
15. Rudy Gay $17,888,932
16. Zach Randolph $17,800,000
17. Brandon Roy $17,779,458
18. Derrick Rose $17,632,688
19. Blake Griffin $16,402,500
20. Paul Pierce $15,333,334
21. Carlos Boozer $15,300,000
22. Marc Gasol $14,860,523
23. Brook Lopez $14,694,000
24. Kevin Love $14,693,906
24. Russell Westbrook $14,693,906
26. Emeka Okafor $14,544,687
27. Luol Deng $14,312,125
28. Roy Hibbert $14,283,844
28. Eric Gordon $14,283,844
30. Andrew Bogut $14,200,000

Durant has Ibaka/Westbrook (and vise versa)
Lebron has Wade and Bosh
Joe Johnson has Deron, KG, PP, Bropez
Kobe and Gasol dont win without each other (or Shaq)
Rose has Knoa and Boozer
CP3 has Blake and Jordon (the best PGs have pretty epic frontcourts)
Love and Sota look a lot better when Rubio plays like a star right?

So if your Melo, coming off a 54 win season, you see the Knicks offseason moves what is your reaction?

Some folks love to blame Melo, but it seems more and more that Melo's comments, regardless of context are appropriate and warrented.

Its todays NBA. You dont just get max money. You go where they are going to set you up to succeed as well.

When other stars have left for other teams why did they leave? Usually to play with better talent. If Lebron, Dwight, Bosh, etc wanted to come here fans would be pretty pumped.

So why is Melo vilified for being honest? Management laid out a lot of get him here. What have they done to keep him here? I mean we all talk about this massive dysfunction because its plain as day. While TFK would have you believe Melo is the cause the dysfunction was here long before he go here.

So if your Melo why are you staying here in this zoo when LA or whoever else will pay you similar to not be the poster boy of the sh!t show this organization calls basketball?

I think you keep saying that, to convince yourself that is true.. but the numbers don't support what you are saying. true those guys have been injured, but the record speaks fish.. since being traded, denver has had a better record than the knicks.. so you can talk all you want about impact.. the numbers don't support you...

As dk said, this post is about putting lipstick on a pig... what are you trying to justify here fish?

I just don't get it..

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:Some folks here obviously hate this player so you know what you can expect from those folks.

For me Melo has been mostly wait and see. I did NOT like the trade but end of the day is was very fair. Gallo and Chandler are two guys who miss a ton of time for various reasons. Mosgov is cute to have but low impact and high cost all things considered. Chandler/Gallo/Mos = $20mm in salary. Melo = $21mm in salary. At face value this isnt even close... the Knicks got a steal in terms of value and impact. Only including the picks makes it even close to palpable for the Nuggets.

I also hated losing a young and very good Felton (at the time) for an old Billups. Wrong their too... Felton simply sucks. No injury excuses as he's out of shape. If he was just hurt fine.. you get a pass. Cant control that, but he's hurt and FAT.

When Melo came here Amare was a full blown star. He was playing great and it certainly seemed like Melo had another star player to go to the wars with. Out with Billups in with Tyson. Knicks are still pretty good and even without Amare still win 54 games last year.

Last year Melo did his job. He was 3rd in MVP voting. He was an all star, won the scoring title and had some totally dominating stretches where the Knicks had big runs in the win column averaging 30/10 in April comes to mind.

So if your Melo its fair to look around the league at your peers. Other guys with elite stats, big contracts who are expected to lead their teams to a lot of wins and playoff runs. Max players.

Lets look at the big money guys:
1. Kobe Bryant $30,453,000
2. Dirk Nowitzki $22,721,381
3. Gilbert Arenas $22,346,536
4. Amare Stoudemire $21,679,893
5. Carmelo Anthony $21,490,000
6. Joe Johnson $21,466,718
7. Dwight Howard $20,513,178
8. Pau Gasol $19,285,850
9. Chris Bosh $19,067,500
9. LeBron James $19,067,500
11. Kevin Durant $18,773,176
12. Chris Paul $18,668,431
13. Dwyane Wade $18,536,000
14. Deron Williams $18,466,130
15. Rudy Gay $17,888,932
16. Zach Randolph $17,800,000
17. Brandon Roy $17,779,458
18. Derrick Rose $17,632,688
19. Blake Griffin $16,402,500
20. Paul Pierce $15,333,334
21. Carlos Boozer $15,300,000
22. Marc Gasol $14,860,523
23. Brook Lopez $14,694,000
24. Kevin Love $14,693,906
24. Russell Westbrook $14,693,906
26. Emeka Okafor $14,544,687
27. Luol Deng $14,312,125
28. Roy Hibbert $14,283,844
28. Eric Gordon $14,283,844
30. Andrew Bogut $14,200,000

Durant has Ibaka/Westbrook (and vise versa)
Lebron has Wade and Bosh
Joe Johnson has Deron, KG, PP, Bropez
Kobe and Gasol dont win without each other (or Shaq)
Rose has Knoa and Boozer
CP3 has Blake and Jordon (the best PGs have pretty epic frontcourts)
Love and Sota look a lot better when Rubio plays like a star right?

So if your Melo, coming off a 54 win season, you see the Knicks offseason moves what is your reaction?

Some folks love to blame Melo, but it seems more and more that Melo's comments, regardless of context are appropriate and warrented.

Its todays NBA. You dont just get max money. You go where they are going to set you up to succeed as well.

When other stars have left for other teams why did they leave? Usually to play with better talent. If Lebron, Dwight, Bosh, etc wanted to come here fans would be pretty pumped.

So why is Melo vilified for being honest? Management laid out a lot of get him here. What have they done to keep him here? I mean we all talk about this massive dysfunction because its plain as day. While TFK would have you believe Melo is the cause the dysfunction was here long before he go here.

So if your Melo why are you staying here in this zoo when LA or whoever else will pay you similar to not be the poster boy of the sh!t show this organization calls basketball?

I think you keep saying that, to convince yourself that is true.. but the numbers don't support what you are saying. true those guys have been injured, but the record speaks fish.. since being traded, denver has had a better record than the knicks.. so you can talk all you want about impact.. the numbers don't support you...

As dk said, this post is about putting lipstick on a pig... what are you trying to justify here fish?

I just don't get it..

Yeah, you can't just ignore the actual results.
And as far as salary goes, I don't think anyone wanted to retain all 3 of those players. I thought only Gallo was a keeper. You could have kept him and signed almost another max contract player (someone with a salary at the Harden-Ibaka level) for the same price Melo alone costs.

yea, it seems the thinking around here is that had we not made the trade, we would have made no moves.

and to say the picks are the only thing that makes the trade palpable for the nuggets is just a slap in the face to a team that has been better than us... Fish should realize denver wasted no time extending gallo, chandler and later moz.... I would say these guys were more than palpable to the nuggets..

The picks are just icing on the cake.. especially if it ends up being a lottery pick.. if the nuggets walk away with a guy like wiggins, this trade will weigh heavily in favor of denver..