tkf wrote:
.. in the NBA draft picks are overvalued..

This has to end. We as a fan base need to understand the implication of the draft.

2013-2014 Season: Best Teams in NBA right now and their corresponding quality draft picks (* denotes all-star/all-NBA type of player and/or starter):

Indiana: George*, Hibbert*, Stephenson*
San Antonio: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli, Leonard
Miami: Wade*, Chalmers*, Haslem*
Clippers: Griffin*, Jordan*
OKC: Durant*, Westbrook*, Ibaka*, Jackson (Getting a lot of production out of other guys)
Golden State: Curry*, Thompson*, Barnes, Green
Minnesota: Love* (traded on draft day), Rubio*, Pekovic* (last pick of second round)
Chicago: Rose*, Noah*, Deng* (traded on draft day), Butler*, Gibson
Portland (8-2 right now if anyone noticed): Aldridge*, Lillard*, Batum* (traded on draft day) (lots of role players)

Knicks: *Shumpert (trade bait) (can't add Hardaway Jr yet, just like I can't add Bullock to LAC)

If that's not enough, let's go through previous champions:

2013: Miami: Wade*, Chalmers*, Haslem*
2012: Miami: Wade*, Chalmbers*, Haslem*
2011: Dallas: Nowitzki*, Barea (bit of an anomaly, but main guy is draft pick)
2010: LA: Bryant*, Bynum*, Fisher* (came back to team)
2009: LA: Bryant*, Bynum*, Fisher* (came back to team)
2008: Boston: Pierce*, Rondo*, Perkins* (draft day trade), Tony Allen
2007: SA: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli*
2006: Miami: Wade*, Haslem* (anomaly, but main guy is draft pick)
2005: SA: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli*
2004: Detroit: Prince* (major anomaly) <---- Knicks short term best case scenario - a blip

Go back 10 years more and 10 years more, it's more of the same. The championship teams without draft picks being one of the most pivotal parts of their championship team are a blip on the radar. Teams like the 04 Pistons are even more rare, because there were no major draft picks there that were the foundation of success other than Prince, and there were no guys like Wade that were the reason why other effective FA's joined the team (such as O'Neal in LA & Miami, and Lebron in Miami). We need to kill this noise about draft picks not being important. We have given up our draft picks either prior to the draft, or after the draft by trading talented guys away for too long. Can we, as an intelligent, aficionado fan-base, make sure we keep alive the importance of drafting well and keeping picks in the NBA? Let's say the Knicks get it together and win a chip in the next 5 years. It will be a blip on the radar, like Detroit. I hope for this everyday, but it has to end soon. The other teams on that list have been rolling with championship contenders for years thanks to the strength of their draft. And more and more are coming out of the doldrums and becoming elite based on the success they have had drafting players. Whether luck or not, for better or for worse, the draft is where championship teams are born.

JohnStarksFan wrote:Andrew & Martin - I petition we sticky this thread. It is imperative that Knicks fans, die-hard or otherwise, read this.

tkf wrote:
.. in the NBA draft picks are overvalued..

This has to end. We as a fan base need to understand the implication of the draft.

2013-2014 Season: Best Teams in NBA right now and their corresponding quality draft picks (* denotes all-star/all-NBA type of player and/or starter):

Indiana: George*, Hibbert*, Stephenson*
San Antonio: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli, Leonard
Miami: Wade*, Chalmers*, Haslem*
Clippers: Griffin*, Jordan*
OKC: Durant*, Westbrook*, Ibaka*, Jackson (Getting a lot of production out of other guys)
Golden State: Curry*, Thompson*, Barnes, Green
Minnesota: Love* (traded on draft day), Rubio*, Pekovic* (last pick of second round)
Chicago: Rose*, Noah*, Deng* (traded on draft day), Butler*, Gibson
Portland (8-2 right now if anyone noticed): Aldridge*, Lillard*, Batum* (traded on draft day) (lots of role players)

Knicks: *Shumpert (trade bait) (can't add Hardaway Jr yet, just like I can't add Bullock to LAC)

If that's not enough, let's go through previous champions:

2013: Miami: Wade*, Chalmers*, Haslem*
2012: Miami: Wade*, Chalmbers*, Haslem*
2011: Dallas: Nowitzki*, Barea (bit of an anomaly, but main guy is draft pick)
2010: LA: Bryant*, Bynum*, Fisher* (came back to team)
2009: LA: Bryant*, Bynum*, Fisher* (came back to team)
2008: Boston: Pierce*, Rondo*, Perkins* (draft day trade), Tony Allen
2007: SA: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli*
2006: Miami: Wade*, Haslem* (anomaly, but main guy is draft pick)
2005: SA: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli*
2004: Detroit: Prince* (major anomaly) <---- Knicks short term best case scenario - a blip

Go back 10 years more and 10 years more, it's more of the same. The championship teams without draft picks being one of the most pivotal parts of their championship team are a blip on the radar. Teams like the 04 Pistons are even more rare, because there were no major draft picks there that were the foundation of success other than Prince, and there were no guys like Wade that were the reason why other effective FA's joined the team (such as O'Neal in LA & Miami, and Lebron in Miami). We need to kill this noise about draft picks not being important. We have given up our draft picks either prior to the draft, or after the draft by trading talented guys away for too long. Can we, as an intelligent, aficionado fan-base, make sure we keep alive the importance of drafting well and keeping picks in the NBA? Let's say the Knicks get it together and win a chip in the next 5 years. It will be a blip on the radar, like Detroit. I hope for this everyday, but it has to end soon. The other teams on that list have been rolling with championship contenders for years thanks to the strength of their draft. And more and more are coming out of the doldrums and becoming elite based on the success they have had drafting players. Whether luck or not, for better or for worse, the draft is where championship teams are born.

This argument is so old and overdone it's tiring to even read, let alone sticky. You really believe 2008 was keyed on Pierce? Seriously? 2013 and 2012 were about Wade and Chalmers???? 2010 and 2009 were about Bynum and Fisher???? You selectively leave out the main pieces, and leaving out the best player on the planet is embarrassing to your argument.

Do you really want a list of all the other 20-30 some draft picks that were absolute busts?

Do you want a list of all the other 20-30 first round draft pics that never won a chip?

JohnStarksFan wrote:Andrew & Martin - I petition we sticky this thread. It is imperative that Knicks fans, die-hard or otherwise, read this.

tkf wrote:
.. in the NBA draft picks are overvalued..

This has to end. We as a fan base need to understand the implication of the draft.

2013-2014 Season: Best Teams in NBA right now and their corresponding quality draft picks (* denotes all-star/all-NBA type of player and/or starter):

Indiana: George*, Hibbert*, Stephenson*
San Antonio: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli, Leonard
Miami: Wade*, Chalmers*, Haslem*
Clippers: Griffin*, Jordan*
OKC: Durant*, Westbrook*, Ibaka*, Jackson (Getting a lot of production out of other guys)
Golden State: Curry*, Thompson*, Barnes, Green
Minnesota: Love* (traded on draft day), Rubio*, Pekovic* (last pick of second round)
Chicago: Rose*, Noah*, Deng* (traded on draft day), Butler*, Gibson
Portland (8-2 right now if anyone noticed): Aldridge*, Lillard*, Batum* (traded on draft day) (lots of role players)

Knicks: *Shumpert (trade bait) (can't add Hardaway Jr yet, just like I can't add Bullock to LAC)

If that's not enough, let's go through previous champions:

2013: Miami: Wade*, Chalmers*, Haslem*
2012: Miami: Wade*, Chalmbers*, Haslem*
2011: Dallas: Nowitzki*, Barea (bit of an anomaly, but main guy is draft pick)
2010: LA: Bryant*, Bynum*, Fisher* (came back to team)
2009: LA: Bryant*, Bynum*, Fisher* (came back to team)
2008: Boston: Pierce*, Rondo*, Perkins* (draft day trade), Tony Allen
2007: SA: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli*
2006: Miami: Wade*, Haslem* (anomaly, but main guy is draft pick)
2005: SA: Duncan*, Parker*, Ginobli*
2004: Detroit: Prince* (major anomaly) <---- Knicks short term best case scenario - a blip

Go back 10 years more and 10 years more, it's more of the same. The championship teams without draft picks being one of the most pivotal parts of their championship team are a blip on the radar. Teams like the 04 Pistons are even more rare, because there were no major draft picks there that were the foundation of success other than Prince, and there were no guys like Wade that were the reason why other effective FA's joined the team (such as O'Neal in LA & Miami, and Lebron in Miami). We need to kill this noise about draft picks not being important. We have given up our draft picks either prior to the draft, or after the draft by trading talented guys away for too long. Can we, as an intelligent, aficionado fan-base, make sure we keep alive the importance of drafting well and keeping picks in the NBA? Let's say the Knicks get it together and win a chip in the next 5 years. It will be a blip on the radar, like Detroit. I hope for this everyday, but it has to end soon. The other teams on that list have been rolling with championship contenders for years thanks to the strength of their draft. And more and more are coming out of the doldrums and becoming elite based on the success they have had drafting players. Whether luck or not, for better or for worse, the draft is where championship teams are born.

I am not sure if you misunderstood my quote, but for the record I believe draft picks are gold... they have supreme value, but teams still overvalue them, which is why they don't like parting with them for pretty much a sure thing... and since they are overvalued we need to protect them even more, because teams will pay a premium to deal with you if you possess them...

I completely agree with your post..

JohnStarksFan wrote:

tkf wrote:
I am not sure if you misunderstood my quote, but for the record I believe draft picks are gold...

I completely agree with your post..

Yup, definitely did misread it. Nonetheless, the idea of picks being shopped still persists and we are not mad enough about it.

oh i agree... we should value picks to the point of overvaluing them... that is how i feel... as you pointed out and i have so many times.. you need those picks, and players on the cheap... it is a must if you want to build a title... if miami doesn't have wade.. no lebron..

if the celts don't already have pierce and rondo, they could not put that team together...

trying to trade your way to a ring only depletes the resources you need to help put a team together to win one..

jrodmc wrote:

JohnStarksFan wrote:

jrodmc wrote:
This argument is so old and overdone it's tiring to even read, let alone sticky. You really believe 2008 was keyed on Pierce? Seriously? 2013 and 2012 were about Wade and Chalmers???? 2010 and 2009 were about Bynum and Fisher???? You selectively leave out the main pieces, and leaving out the best player on the planet is embarrassing to your argument.

Do you really want a list of all the other 20-30 some draft picks that were absolute busts?

Do you want a list of all the other 20-30 first round draft pics that never won a chip?

You didn't read the whole thing. I pointed out Lebron and Shaq below.

Here's what I would like. A list of 10 GREAT teams in the past 30 years of NBA basketball, Conference Finals appearance being the benchmark, without major dedication to their draft picks, grooming of those draft picks, and those draft picks being pivotal pieces on that club, as star or role player. You do this, the argument is over, I will concede. You can't do that, close up shop on the anti-draft talk. It is clear there is luck involved and that draft picks don't pan out. It's the same in any organization. A boss hires 20 guys for a new start-up company, 3 are all-stars, 10 are role players, 7 are busts. As a Knick fan you want to believe the draft is overrated and I sympathize, but it isn't.

And yes, 2012 and 2013 are huge for Wade. Wade took less money and created the Miami basketball we see today, as a rookie with the club. He is the reason Lebron and Bosh went to the club and took less money. Go back to the 2003 draft. Order: Lebron, Milicic, Anthony, Bosh, then Wade. The list of names after that is atrocious, TJ Ford, Sweetney, Collison, Pietrus, Kaman, Hinrich, the next best player didn't happen until round 18 with David West. If Miami drafts anyone besides Wade, they don't have 3 championships in the past decade. If you don't realize this, I can't help you.

So draft picks as star or role players. That argument is akin to saying all great teams have players. You need the draft and luck. Or you need the right free agents and luck. Or you need the right draft pick to stick around and take less money. Or you need a blip.

Or you just need luck. Every team drafts players. Why don't the other 29 teams win chips?

Do you notice that your list is relegated to about the same 5 or 6 teams, not including "blips"?

Maybe drafting one of the 10 best players in the league helps?

Or signing one or two of them?

You are not seeing the forrest and keep running into the trees.

Look at this list closer. Wade is a "role player" now, using role player as not the number one guy, but you can't argue his isn't the single most important reason for that team winning for so long. Bryant for LA, Duncan for SA, Pierce in Boston (lesser so), same stories. These guys come in, change the game, and make the teams winners. I give the credit to the players, but no, they are not solely responsible. Wade has Riley and Co., proven winners, Duncan has Pop, Kobe had Phil. Those organizations also believe in their coaches and staff to develop. But I don't care who's running the show. If Riley doesn't take Wade and takes a flyer on Hinrich, Miami is not in their position. If LA didn't see the future of their franchise in Bryant they don't go after him draft day. Duncan became the best PF in history. Come on, man. Of all the factors that come into play for a team to win a chip and continue to win for long periods of time, the draft is the number one starting point. Nothing else will compare. Other teams draft poorly, develop poorly, and it just doesn't work, then they make moves instead of holding onto their guys, or guys get their career cut short due to injury, and the list can go on and on. But there is one factor most responsible for winning teams, and it's the draft. If you really don't believe that, I think you might actually work for the Knicks front office and have held that job for 11 years.

Are you going to make that list to prove me wrong? If free agents and trades are just important give me a list of 10 Great Teams like Detroit in 04, again, conference finals as benchmark. Make it 9, I already gave you one.

#1 - 2003-2004 Detroit Pistons
#2 - You're up playboy...

Miami bought their championships.... only Wade, chalmbers, Cole and haslem were drafted the rest were bought. Even the first championship had a rag tag group unifying Shaq and antoine walker.

championships are won when everything comes together and God basketball is played. Alot of luck too

EnySpree wrote:I'm not even going to read this....

Miami bought their championships.... only Wade, chalmbers, Cole and haslem were drafted the rest were bought. Even the first championship had a rag tag group unifying Shaq and antoine walker.

championships are won when everything comes together and God basketball is played. Alot of luck too

no wade.. no lebron..

gunsnewing wrote:Yea we've gone over this a billion times. Every championship included a star who was originally drafted by the team. They then add championship ship caliber free agents around them. It very simple. Knicks will never figure it out though

Did this hold with Chauncy-led Detroit? Or do you consider Prince a star?

gunsnewing wrote:Yea we've gone over this a billion times. Every championship included a star who was originally drafted by the team. They then add championship ship caliber free agents around them. It very simple. Knicks will never figure it out though

To get that star draft kid we would have to lose magnificently then be lucky to win the lottery. With the Knicks luck we'd get Tyrus thomas or Kwame brown. Our maybe we get Ewing and still never sign anyone to compliment him and still go 15 more years without winning.

It's a Crap shoot. How many teams do the draft and build up and still never win?

I think the Knicks just need to keep this thing going positively. We traded all our picks until 2018. We hope to still be winning at that point. We're going to fight for Kevin Love and whoever else. We have to ride this wave right now. Hopefully we start to hold on to our future picks and if things go south after 2018 we can do the draft thing..... right now we gotta build around Melo. Right now we are currently Fucking that up royally.

martin wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea we've gone over this a billion times. Every championship included a star who was originally drafted by the team. They then add championship ship caliber free agents around them. It very simple. Knicks will never figure it out though

To get that start we would have to lose magnificently then be lucky to win the lottery. With the Knicks luck we'd get Tyrus thomas or Kwame brown. Our maybe we get Ewing and still never sign anyone to compliment him and still go 15 more years without winning.

It's a Crap shoot. How many teams do the draft and build up and still never win?

I think the Knicks just need to keep this thing going positively. We traded all our picks until 2018. We hope to still be winning at that point. We're going to fight for Kevin Love and whoever else. We have to ride this wave right now. Hopefully we start to hold on to our future picks and if things go south after 2018 we can do the draft thing..... right now we gotta build around Melo. Right now we are currently Fucking that up royally.

Gallo at #6. Weak draft more than anything, right? Wade went #5, Kobe #13, Dirk #9. Lots of luck involved.

key is to keep picks, you you can have a chance at getting one of those guys.. or you could hold your picks and take a ginobili, a parker, a paul george, and the list goes on and on... with no picks.. no luck..

EnySpree wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea we've gone over this a billion times. Every championship included a star who was originally drafted by the team. They then add championship ship caliber free agents around them. It very simple. Knicks will never figure it out though

To get that star draft kid we would have to lose magnificently then be lucky to win the lottery. With the Knicks luck we'd get Tyrus thomas or Kwame brown. Our maybe we get Ewing and still never sign anyone to compliment him and still go 15 more years without winning.

It's a Crap shoot. How many teams do the draft and build up and still never win?

I think the Knicks just need to keep this thing going positively. We traded all our picks until 2018. We hope to still be winning at that point. We're going to fight for Kevin Love and whoever else. We have to ride this wave right now. Hopefully we start to hold on to our future picks and if things go south after 2018 we can do the draft thing..... right now we gotta build around Melo. Right now we are currently Fucking that up royally.

thats like saying how many people wear seat belts and still get injured in accidents... the key is how many are not injured wearing seatbelts as opposed to those who don't.....

If someone is hurt badly in an accident not wearing a seat belt, do you start riding with yours off?

history backs up the point that those who utilize the draft win more so than those who don't.. plain and simple..