I know many think it's best for Melo to start at PF, but one thing that I don't like is Melo going up against TRUE PF's all year and in the playoffs. As a defender Melo is not going to be able to hold up against these big strong players. However, if Woodson starts Bargnani, then we can actually have better defense at the PF spot. Some would laugh at this, but in truth he would be an upgrade over Melo at the PF spot defensively. AB is a solid man defender and next to Tyson it would work almost perfectly with his strengths.

http://gothicginobili.com/?p=3929

Andrea Bargnani is an interesting player, to me. I think he's a heck of a lot better than most people think, especially defensively. You think I'm insane? Perhaps. But I'll list off a few facts that Matt Moore shared back in the summer of 2010, when he first got access to Synergy's video database and took some time to parse through the numbers. I saved them, and spent the entire next season paying extremely close attention to both players in an effort to see if the Synergy-based assertions matched what I was seeing. (I didn't have Synergy until mid-2012, so I could only really watch stuff like this by living on League Pass.)

1. While Bosh was in Toronto, Bargnani guarded the better opposing big 9 out of 10 times.
2. Despite guarding the better big Bargnani's man D was better than Bosh's man D.
3. He's actually a very effective post defender, and uses his athleticism and size to make easy shots challenging.
4. He's recently been in the top 15% of NBA players in isolation defense. When guarding big men shooting jumpers, Bargnani holds them to 30% shooting.
5. Despite all this, he's still been a net negative defender on the Raptors over his career.

When I first read all of these but #5, I thought Moore was playing a practical joke on all his basketball-inclined followers. Bargnani has been a notably defective help defender for years, to the point that his awful help defense can be noticed even by those who don't have a particularly trained eye for a player's defensive acumen. Bargnani ignores cutters, doesn't help off his man, and simply doesn't take the role of "protecting the paint" seriously when he's playing center. He always wants to float and focus on his man, which is fine when he's playing the large forward and playing alongside an actual center but atrocious when he's supposed to be the last line of defense. But note that I haven't said Moore was wrong. That's because, honestly, he wasn't. I can't assess #1, because I wasn't really paying attention to that when they played together, but I can state confidently that Bargnani is a effective defender in the post, a decent isolation defender, and actually very good at getting out to contest when his man takes a jumpshot. What's more, while Bosh is the far superior help defender, Bargnani's individual post defense and the totality of his overall individual defense is above that of Bosh, meaning that if I had the two of them on a team, I'd probably give Bargnani the harder assignment as well.

Of course, as I just pointed out -- his help defense is notably awful, enough so that it's hard to notice the things he does right on the defensive end. Not to mention his rebounding, which is the primary reason his defense is immensely disappointing -- even though Bargnani is an effective individual defender, if the opposing team gets 2 or 3 extra possessions a game from his lazy rebounding, fault has to fall on Bargnani's shoulders for ceding possessions that any other non-Lopez center could've gotten. This goes double when playing on a team as defensively hopeless as most of his pre-Casey Raptor teams -- you basically need to win the possession battle when you aren't a good defensive team, and when Bargnani is playing center, you're virtually assured not to. The rebounding problems have remained, but the help defense issues are starting to clear up -- as Dwane Casey has pointed out, he's gotten better. He fell off badly after his injury, so in the second half of the season, Bargnani had his problems. But at the start of the season Bargnani was communicating, and under Casey's scheme, he was doing a very good job of it. After years of wanting Bargnani out the door, most Raptors fans I know started to visualize a future with him on the team. It was cool.

What do the Raptors need to do, going forward, to bring out the best in Bargnani? Well, first off, they need to never ever hire Jay Triano again. Triano may very well be the worst coach the NBA's had in the last 10-20 years. He was abominable in Toronto, both at developing players and building schemes that fully utilized the team's talent. Casey is a great step forward in this regard -- he's already shown to be an excellent defensive coach and all accounts seem to indicate he's gotten a lot of buy-in from his players. The second thing? Stop pretending Bargnani is a center and allow him to slide over to the big forward position. Yes, he's 7'0" -- height alone doesn't make a center, and his rebounding and lacking instincts make playing him as the primary paint-stuffer is a terrible idea. In an ideal world, Bargnani would play the Dirk to some big man's Tyson Chandler -- the sweet shooting huge power forward who spreads the floor and uses his defensive talents on one man and one man alone. Jonas Valanciunas should be good for this -- not necessarily because of his talent, but simply because his size and game are prototypical for the five-spot. If he can chip in something like a per-36 10-10 in 20-30 MPG, the Raptors will be greatly improved for it. If the Raptors had picked up Steve Nash, I might've actually picked them to win their division -- it would've been a great situation for him, as he could've played 25 minutes a night and mentored their young players beautifully. Can't really complain, though -- in picking up Lowry instead the Raptors have a much better set-up going into the future, though the upside play for this individual season isn't quite as high. In any event, this team is a likely playoff contender this year, and if Bargnani plays a bigger-than-expected role in it -- chipping in some defensive chops to go with his to-be-expected 20 points a night -- don't be too surprised.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/17/the-inbounds-the-pierre-bargnani-defensive-mirror/

Some of you will be aware of this, but for those of you aren’t, let me catch you up real quick. You know how Andrea Bargnani has this reputation as being the very definition of a horrible defender? It’s not entirely a fictional archetype, but it’s also not really so much in love with the truth that the two have announced the relationship on Facebook. Synergy Sports ranked Bargnani in the 88th percentile in post defense on a per-possession basis, and the 56th percentile in isolation defense last season (with a gaudy 95th percentile overall). It wasn’t all Dwane Casey’s wizardry last season (though his work with Bargnani’s defense should not be ignored, but we’ll get there. In 2011, he was 47th percentile in post and 83rd percentile in isolation. 2010? 72nd percentile in the post, 28th in isolation. Bear in mind these numbers are regardless of the number of possessions, so someone that defended in the post once successfully logs in at the top of the chart. So basically, he’s even better than these numbers indicate, relative to his position.

But as so many people that don’t understand nuance, statistics, or empirical information suggest, “numbers don’t tell the whole story.” It’s easy to say that, but what about who he was guarding, etc. Unfortunately, if you have too much time on your hands, as I have over the past four years, you can actually watch the game video and discover that, whoops, often Bargnani was actually defending the better offensive threat due to his raw height. Surprise! Andrea Bargnani is a pretty good man defender. Let your world shake into a new comfort. Even with the problems afforded Synergy and the metrics used in that glorious environment, it’s impossible to deny that Bargnani at least does a decent job of distracting the guy he’s matched up with into missing his shot a lot of the time.

Now if Woodson can work with AB on developing better awareness and positioning defensively in the paint so that he's not so atrocious as a help defender that would be a major victory. We shouldn't expect him to turn into Dikembe Mutombo but it would be interesting to see if they can get him to improve his understanding of his role in a team defense better. I think there's at least a chance that he could improve a little in that area. It's about drilling AB on how he's supposed to move in the paint to shut down the lane and get his hands up to deter penetration. At the least if he's starting at PF he's a better defender on his man than Melo is against PF's. He could actually help Tyson in that regard cuz he can hold his own against PF's better than Melo can. AB has more height and length and actually uses it to good effect in the post.

I like your optimism, but this thread is going to be destroyed.

heres an attempt at a "legitimate" point of view. one can argue that bargs could and SHOULD start however i dont think that will happen. here's my reasoning

- if anything, i think (and fear), woody will start a 2 PG lineup since that had lots of success
- ditto for Melo at PF...it simply had a lot more success
- as for bargs, im concerned about his lack of rebounding, defense and overall effort. Sure you can say that he was in a bad environment in toronto but he needs to prove that first
- im not gonna bash any player but i think these are legit concerns about bargs. i hope he works out, he certainly has potential

i am NOT a fan of playing Melo at the 3. i think playing melo at the PF hides his laziness on perimeter defense. (the fact that he causes matches up problems when hes on offense at the 4 is overated cuz dude is a gifted scorer and would be a match up problem for anyone). not to mention, he has the size and the strength to play the 4. only a few teams hurt melo at the 4. indy, chicago and memphis...the rest of the league is playing small ball like the knicks

im willing to give bargs a 2nd shot..esp now that hes on our team. but dude is SOFT! and i dont want my PF playing SOFT. i agree with you that hes a gifted scorer and also agree that hes NOT a center...but that doesnt mean i want him starting.

if anything, i like what artest brings to the table. hes WAY past his prime offensively but defensively hes BRINGS it at the 3. he adds that toughness that the knicks lacked.

lastly, "but who's to say we don't have even more success with Bargnani and STAT at PF?"..lets go on then...or more success with starting JR or prigoni or melo at SG...the list can go on and on. but what most coaches do is they go with what has worked in the past...im not gonna freak out about the indy series (TRADE TYSON..OR JR SUCKS). I think our boyz lost cuz INDY was TOUGHER. add artest and you add the toughness factor that we lacked

great points..but im NOT a fan of bargs. talented but SOFT.

yikes...i hate the phrase "According to statistics"...lol..i appreciate them but being a former player, i go by the "eye test" a lot more. dude is soft..each time ive seen him play over the yrs, he strikes me as unmotivated and soft.

i mean we'll see..im not concluding anything. just stating my concerns. to me someone like bargs has to EARN minutes. until then he starts off the bench playing MAYBE 20mins a game.

I seriously doubt Woody is gonna kick off the season playing a non defending non rebounding, self admitted "lazy" player at PF.

This is what Bargnani has been, but somehow the belief is "situation" will change the player.

It might...but I doubt it.

Is a fact that when healthy Bargnani had averaged the same amount of blocks as Tyson Chandler when healthy. It's also a fact that Bargnani can drop 30 plus on anyone in any given night and is not going to be spot up jumpers and transition 3 pointers. Dude is known to drive and dunk on your team. He has an elaborate post game that can go high post or low post. He's a legit 7fter.... and yes he can shoot.

It's a lie to say the dude is soft. Is he a pansy euro guy, probably... but the Knicks are a good team and they could win without him so that in itself is very dangerous because that is the environment for him to succeed.

It's all in woodson.... last year is in the past. He's got to play for this year. The best starting 5 should be Bargs melo Tyson Felton and Shump....

playing melo at the 4 abs starting 2 point guards kill the advantages this team has with its depth

EnySpree wrote:Is a fact that when healthy Bargnani had averaged the same amount of blocks as Tyson Chandler when healthy. It's also a fact that Bargnani can drop 30 plus on anyone in any given night and is not going to be spot up jumpers and transition 3 pointers. Dude is known to drive and dunk on your team. He has an elaborate post game that can go high post or low post. He's a legit 7fter.... and yes he can shoot.

defense is not determined by blocks...Deandre Jordan averages two a game, so has Amare, and both dudes are awful defenders.

Defense is positioning, challenging incomers to the paint and willingness to help out.

Chandler does this...Bargnani never has, and it's a major disrespect to compare Chandler and Bargnani on defense.

Chandler actually comes off the block to guard a wing, only to have to return back to the low post, which he has done numerous of times.

And no, Barganani CANNOT drop 30 a night, otherwise he would have came close to averaging 30 a night.....20 I would agree with, but 30? cant be serious.

EnySpree wrote:It's a lie to say the dude is soft. Is he a pansy euro guy, probably... but the Knicks are a good team and they could win without him so that in itself is very dangerous because that is the environment for him to succeed.

Actually a team that can win without out a player hurts the player....we already have a team that for pretty much the whole year played without Amare, when he came back the team just looked different and it wasnt quite right....although a full year COULD change that, but we cant expect either Bargnani or Amare to be available for such.

Bargnani is called soft by some because he doesnt do what 7 footer should, and plays like a 6-4 shooting guard.

I dont call him "soft', I call him by what he called himself...lazy.

EnySpree wrote:It's all in woodson.... last year is in the past. He's got to play for this year. The best starting 5 should be Bargs melo Tyson Felton and Shump....

The starting five honestly wont matter without a legit offense and a consistent effort on defense.

Unless Bargs transforms into a player he's never been....he wont start.

Knowing Woody his starting lineup is one of these two....

Tyson Melo MWP Pablo Felton or Tyson Melo Shump Pablo Felton.

Woody didnt leave Felton out there by himself at any point of the season and for good reason, Woody also wants his SF to be a transitional wing defender who can knock down a shot like Marvin Williams....MWP used to could do this, but I'd figure Shump gets that spot because he CAN do that.

EnySpree wrote:playing melo at the 4 abs starting 2 point guards kill the advantages this team has with its depth

Not really...they enjoyed their best season and even the year before was crushing teams with the same type of lineup.

Now I will agree it doesnt work in the playoffs, but it could if Woody goes with the hand and not names...and knows when to pull the plug.

I do think this is the way Woody has always wanted it, but couldnt justify it with a healthy Amare...Bargnani isnt walking onto the team with that form of respect.

if a player doesn't rebound you have to ask whether he is boxing out his man. if he is boxing out his man then you can't blame him for not getting more rebounds because he obviously affords a teammate a chance to get the rebound instead. too bad none of the article mentions this.

as to comparing stat to him defensively, i am pretty sure they are equally bad at help defense. bargs would likely be the better man defender but stat is going to be the better weakside blocker.

the only cure for preventing a layup drill with either of these players out there is to be sure your perimeter defense is aces. but if woodson does a two pg lineup because of felton's inability to orchestrate on his own then you will have that layup line.

bring back hand-checking!

Hey, those are the articles I posted. Nix you recycling my posts?

I agree with Nix -- I think Bargnani's natural position is PF. At 7' he can play some center, sure, but the man's a power forward. I think that's where he belongs. That's where he fits the best given the other personnel we have in place on this team. It's about time we start playing all our players at their proper positions... To me Bargnani should be guarding 4s defensively (maybe occasionally guarding 5s if Woody wants to pull Chandler and go with a more offensive unit) and on offense, I want him playing the freelance Dirk Nowitzki role. I don't want him shoehorned into any specific role on offense as in 'strictly play him 5' from the basket and let him post up.' I don't think that's wise. I want the most we can possibly get out of him offensively and that happens by letting him roam comfortably playing all 3 quadrants on offense -- a lot of mid range, some post, and out on the perimeter too. Dallas, as far as I know, never told Dirk to play any one specific way on offense. The man's dangerous and can hurt you from everywhere. I want Bargnani used the EXACT same way. Defensively, as long as we have some other players around him to help cover for him (and everyone else), namely Chandler and Artest (I think a move for a legit shot-blocker like a Hassan Whiteside could help out tremendously too), he'll be fine. Let's face it -- the man was brought here to score the ball and take a big offensive load off Melo. Other players that have defensive strengths will have to man up and cover for him, Melo and everyone else. That'll be their roles...

I'd really like to see Hassan Whiteside in for training camp. Yeah he might still be on the raw side somewhat but he's got true discernible skills we could use, namely rim protection and rebounding (plus we still need a legit backup C). Those skills fit nicely with Bargnani. If Whiteside can produce in these 2 categories (and I think he could, as well as develop other parts of his game on the fly), he'd complement Bargnani's game perfectly. I'd really like to see the Knicks bring him in for a closer look, then go from there. We'll all know right away seeing him in preseason games if he's ready for the NBA or not. Right now, for the little money we're talking vs. what he could potentially bring to the table, he's worth signing and evaluating...Earl Barron's gotta be in the mix for training camp too for his height, rebounding prowess and effective mid-range game. Other teams are loading up their training camp rosters -- there's still time but I'm kinda surprised we haven't heard more up to this point on who we plan on bringing in. Only thing I can think of is the Knicks still expect certain players to be waived by other teams coming up and they have their eye on said players and plan on targeting them instead of who's currently available. Who knows.. Otherwise, it makes little sense -- there are still good players available! Grab guys like Barron, Whiteside, etc. while we still have a chance!!!