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This draft proving how hard traditional rebuilding is
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Knixkik
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6/6/2013  12:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/6/2013  12:54 PM
It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.
AUTOADVERT
BRIGGS
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6/6/2013  12:54 PM
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee, etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

We don't really know about that--but we do know that from looking at these players and looking at advanced stats--there is no franchise player--per se available in this draft. Now there certainly can be--I think this draft is significantly under rated--its got depth and while there is no Shaq Lebron--can we see all stars in this draft--yes. Tell me the last draft when you had 3 skilled 7 footers Zeller Olynck Muscala two true centers with nice promise in Len and Adams and then back up types that cna be in an NBA rotation--a bunch of them. Then we have some really good depth at PG from Williams Burke Mccolum(who might be the best of all of them if he can make the transition with his powerful body and size)Larkin Wolters Green Jackson Cannan etc... you have nice 2 guards Crabbe Muhhamed Hardaway Mclemore etc.. SF Porter Ennis some upside players in Ledo Giannis Mitchell there is something for everybody---but there is not that true super top 5 talent that makes you jump. BUt I think a smart team can grab two really good players from 5 to 45 if they draft well. Two players who can help a team right away on rookie contracts is almost a necessity now.

RIP Crushalot😞
Knixkik
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6/6/2013  12:58 PM
This draft is vastly underrated, but we are talking about rebuilding from the top. But if you have multiple mid to late picks in this draft, you should be very pleased. This is a great draft to pull some very good role players who may even have some all star potential, but very unlikely to have any studs or players to jump start a rebuild. Muscala or one of the PGs will be available for us and hopefully we get that pick right and end up with a long term rotation player or even starter. But teams in the top 5 will have to be bad for another year to get a chance at any franchise talent.
callmened
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6/6/2013  1:20 PM
i posted about this in aonther thread...the draft was ALWAYS a crapshoot in terms of finding quality players...but now with the erosion of the college game i think its MORE of a gamble. If a team doesnt have a lottery pick, i have no problem with them trading them for other players. Instead, invest in younger talent that has played overseas or in the DLeague. This is what i wrote:

In the future, I think acquiring young talent will lean towards "thinking outside the box" rather than traditional draft picks. Yes there will always be stars to draft in the lottery and sleepers that turn out to be good. But since the college game is getting worse and these kids arent ready, alot of them end up overseas or in the DLeague "to finish their education". By the time they "graduate", theyve improved their game and maturity (humbled into good work ethic). I think teams like the spurs (green, splitter, neal) and recently the knix (copeland, gani lawal) are onto something.

Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
tkf
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6/6/2013  1:21 PM
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Knixkik
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6/6/2013  1:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/6/2013  1:54 PM
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

knickscity
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6/6/2013  1:56 PM
Miami Lakers Celtics...the most recent winners have all won their rings by acquisition of trades.

The Spurs are the only exception, to prove you can win by building through the draft.

The rest have yet to prove anything.

Knixkik
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6/6/2013  1:57 PM
callmened wrote:i posted about this in aonther thread...the draft was ALWAYS a crapshoot in terms of finding quality players...but now with the erosion of the college game i think its MORE of a gamble. If a team doesnt have a lottery pick, i have no problem with them trading them for other players. Instead, invest in younger talent that has played overseas or in the DLeague. This is what i wrote:

In the future, I think acquiring young talent will lean towards "thinking outside the box" rather than traditional draft picks. Yes there will always be stars to draft in the lottery and sleepers that turn out to be good. But since the college game is getting worse and these kids arent ready, alot of them end up overseas or in the DLeague "to finish their education". By the time they "graduate", theyve improved their game and maturity (humbled into good work ethic). I think teams like the spurs (green, splitter, neal) and recently the knix (copeland, gani lawal) are onto something.

Yes this is right, the draft has become such a crapshoot that rebuilding this way requires a lot of luck, not only winning the lottery but getting it right, it's like winning the lottery twice. Look at okc, the current model for drafting well. Had they won the lottery then would have drafted Oden and they wouldn't be who they are now. So they won the lottery by not winning the lottery. So may factors beyond having a smart front office. Is just too unreliable and too much luck involved for traditional rebuild.

Knixkik
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6/6/2013  1:59 PM
knickscity wrote:Miami Lakers Celtics...the most recent winners have all won their rings by acquisition of trades.

The Spurs are the only exception, to prove you can win by building through the draft.

The rest have yet to prove anything.

My point exactly. Until some of these other teams win, they are only hopefuls. 1 team in the last decade is not a great track record for these hopefuls either.

Nalod
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6/6/2013  2:01 PM
knickscity wrote:Miami Lakers Celtics...the most recent winners have all won their rings by acquisition of trades.

The Spurs are the only exception, to prove you can win by building through the draft.

The rest have yet to prove anything.

Celtics traded a bunch of drafted players to get that chip. But it would not have won without Perkins and Rondo!

One has to have a blend of both. Lakers parlayed Vlade Divac into the 13th pick which was kobe and developed him which took 2-3 seasons. They got shaq in an era where there was no cap.

Knixkik
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6/6/2013  2:05 PM
Nalod wrote:
knickscity wrote:Miami Lakers Celtics...the most recent winners have all won their rings by acquisition of trades.

The Spurs are the only exception, to prove you can win by building through the draft.

The rest have yet to prove anything.

Celtics traded a bunch of drafted players to get that chip. But it would not have won without Perkins and Rondo!

One has to have a blend of both. Lakers parlayed Vlade Divac into the 13th pick which was kobe and developed him which took 2-3 seasons. They got shaq in an era where there was no cap.

Celtics are a prefect example because Perkins and rondo were great role players at the time they won it all. They drafted them late in the first round. The draft is great to find cheap, good role players who can support the core, but as far as finding elite talent high in the lottery to lead you to a title, odds are slim. Building thru the draft means you draft your core talent. I think using the draft to fill gaps is the best way to do so however.

nixluva
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6/6/2013  2:11 PM
IMO it's always been a blend of getting lucky in the top of the draft, drafting well outside of the top 10 and great Trades or FA signings. College just hasn't had the wealth of superstar talent from year to year. There are MORE teams that have been in the draft regularly that have not gotten a Superstar Franchise player than ones that have been lucky to land one or two. It's just not a guaranteed path to success.
knickscity
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6/6/2013  2:12 PM
Nalod wrote:
knickscity wrote:Miami Lakers Celtics...the most recent winners have all won their rings by acquisition of trades.

The Spurs are the only exception, to prove you can win by building through the draft.

The rest have yet to prove anything.

Celtics traded a bunch of drafted players to get that chip. But it would not have won without Perkins and Rondo!

One has to have a blend of both. Lakers parlayed Vlade Divac into the 13th pick which was kobe and developed him which took 2-3 seasons. They got shaq in an era where there was no cap.


Very few fans contribute the Celtics title to Rondo at all, his development is after that year.

It was the trades and acquistions that made the teams reach the goal, in about each and every case.

Not sure what your point is about Shaq, he was signed with cap space, there difeinitely was a salary cap back then.

tkf
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6/6/2013  2:44 PM
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
knickscity
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6/6/2013  3:06 PM
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..


How is the Knicks way heartache and disappointment when the other team you're praising havent even gotten that far?

Denver has yet to get out of the first, as Houston and they made it mainly due to Harden acquisition which was a trade.

The issue is there is no proven way OKC is the exception not the norm, and there is no guarantee they make it back.

Knixkik
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6/6/2013  3:29 PM
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..

I am happy considering how far we have come. Best team in the Atlantic division, series win. We had a better season than Atlanta has in a long, long time, just to name one of your examples. These other teams haven't proven anything and are only living by your "on the rise" theory. Some of the teams you mention will never made it past the second round in this era. Your opinion is based on a view of a team's potential and not sustainable results. When Indiana, Atlanta, Houston, or okc wins a title as currently constructed let me know. Okc might be your only shot at proving building thru the draft works. And let me reiterate a fact: if okc had the first pick in 2007 and not the second, they would be a 1st/2nd round exit every year. They would not have durant. How that draft worked out for them was luck and only luck, yet they are praised for being the model franchise for draft success in this era. It was part success, but s large part luck.

jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
6/6/2013  4:30 PM
knickscity wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..


How is the Knicks way heartache and disappointment when the other team you're praising havent even gotten that far?

Denver has yet to get out of the first, as Houston and they made it mainly due to Harden acquisition which was a trade.

The issue is there is no proven way OKC is the exception not the norm, and there is no guarantee they make it back.

Give it up, there's no sense trying to talk sense to someone who thinks
1) Miami and Houston were built through the draft
2) Atlanta is consistently good.
3) The Knicks suck at everything.


Gotta give him kudos though. His badly cherry picked list didn't mention Denver at all.

There may be hope yet.

knickscity
Posts: 24533
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 6/2/2012
Member: #4241
USA
6/6/2013  4:43 PM
jrodmc wrote:
knickscity wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..


How is the Knicks way heartache and disappointment when the other team you're praising havent even gotten that far?

Denver has yet to get out of the first, as Houston and they made it mainly due to Harden acquisition which was a trade.

The issue is there is no proven way OKC is the exception not the norm, and there is no guarantee they make it back.

Give it up, there's no sense trying to talk sense to someone who thinks
1) Miami and Houston were built through the draft
2) Atlanta is consistently good.
3) The Knicks suck at everything.


Gotta give him kudos though. His badly cherry picked list didn't mention Denver at all.

There may be hope yet.


The next GM is gonna shake that mess up, Denver is not in a good shape right now....even TKF knows it, which is why he didn't mention it.
Knixkik
Posts: 35475
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
6/6/2013  5:56 PM
knickscity wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
knickscity wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..


How is the Knicks way heartache and disappointment when the other team you're praising havent even gotten that far?

Denver has yet to get out of the first, as Houston and they made it mainly due to Harden acquisition which was a trade.

The issue is there is no proven way OKC is the exception not the norm, and there is no guarantee they make it back.

Give it up, there's no sense trying to talk sense to someone who thinks
1) Miami and Houston were built through the draft
2) Atlanta is consistently good.
3) The Knicks suck at everything.


Gotta give him kudos though. His badly cherry picked list didn't mention Denver at all.

There may be hope yet.


The next GM is gonna shake that mess up, Denver is not in a good shape right now....even TKF knows it, which is why he didn't mention it.

Denver is exactly what many thought they would be from the start. A good team that is very deep but lacks a go-to player and has way too much money invested in good but not great players.

Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
6/6/2013  5:58 PM
Knixkik wrote:
knickscity wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
knickscity wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
tkf wrote:
Knixkik wrote:It seems like every team in the top 5 isn't happy and wants to trade out. Only problem is they likely won't because no one wants to give fair value in trade. In this draft you are better off having multiple mid to late first round picks then a top 5 pick because either way you are likely getting a role player. Charlotte has been in rough shape each season and this one it doesn't really matter that they were lucky again and landed number 4. I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season, it's no wonder there are so many teams still trying to get it right. Who knows when or if Charlotte, Detroit, Sacramento, Phoenix, Orlando, Washington, Milwaukee etc will ever get it right. Glad we aren't rebuilding and stuck in that game of luck.

not sure how what you posted backs up what the title of the thread says..

OKC
Indy
GSW
Houston
Atlanta
Spurs
Miami

All of these teams are/were built through the draft, so how is the draft proving to be a difficult way to build a team..

if anything, trying to buy, starphuch, and free agent your way to winning has proved futile over the years...

I really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some of the top 10 picks. But as far as rebuilding thru the draft, between hoping for a draft that consists of franchise talent, to being lucky enough to win a top pick, to making sure you actually get that pick right, then to do it all again and get that process flawless the next season,

I want you to look at what you wrote.. You see when you can't check homerism at the door, it just makes having a logical discussion impossible..

You said you really believe that if we draft right we will land a player at 24 that is as good as some top 10 picks.. well of course that can happen with any team.. you can get lucky, it has happened, but you will need very good scouting.. when have the knicks ever done that? we don't have a history of that..

then you go on to basically say that teams picking high, have to make sure they get the pick right, if not go through it again.. well lets be fair, if you think the knicks will get it right at 24, then you must assume that the teams picking in the lottery will apply the same logic and get it right, and since they have higher picks, will most likely take the best talent..

what you basically said, and I will sum it up is..

Because we are the knicks, I feel we will get a stud at 24

lottery teams most likely will screw up and draft a dud and have to repeat the process over and over again..

LOL.. really man? really? well maybe not, maybe 7 of lottery teams get it right, maybe they all do.. who knows.. but what we do know are teams are taking a different approach, and teams are getting better, quick... to assume that the sixers, kings, wolves, raptors, cavs,wizards, suns,portland.. all who have done very well in the draft the past few years will just muck this one up, and the knicks will land a stud at 24 is just a bit ridiculous.....

Anthony davis, kidd gilchrist, bradley beal, dion waiters,Thomas Robinson, Damian lillard,harrison barnes, Terrance ross, Andre drummond..

from the looks of it, most of those teams have gotten some fantastic playes.. Lillard, waiters, beal, gilchrist,davis, ross, barnes, all seem to be more than solid picks and I can tell you, 4 to 5 of those guys will be allstars very soon... another draft like that, and those teams will be shooting up the rankings...

YES YOU CAN BUILD THROUGH THE DRAFT.. that with a combination of smart FA signings.. Not starphucs...and you will have a good team.. see the pacers!!

Of all the teams you just mentioned only spurs and heat have won a title, and only spurs have won it centered around their own picks. The rest of the teams are only hopefuls at this point. But thank you for supporting my point with your examples. Okc is the example of when everything in a rebuild goes right in a 3 year period, and even with them their is no guarantee. This draft is an example of why hopeful rebuilding teams will have to fast forward thru yet another year of tanking so they get another try. That is what I was pointing out.

Also know one said we pick a stud at 24 and all lotto teams get it wrong, sorry you interpreted it that way.

All of those player you mentioned could be good, however it's unknown if they can be core players or franchise players to help a championship team. Yes the pacers are good, one of the few examples of a team that is successful in rebuilding, although no guarantee they win it all.

OKC been to the finals, Atlanta has been consistently good, and the other teams are on the rise.. that is the point.. the knicks trying the way they have been has resulted in nothing but heartache and dissappointment...

Are you happy with what happened this year? honestly..


How is the Knicks way heartache and disappointment when the other team you're praising havent even gotten that far?

Denver has yet to get out of the first, as Houston and they made it mainly due to Harden acquisition which was a trade.

The issue is there is no proven way OKC is the exception not the norm, and there is no guarantee they make it back.

Give it up, there's no sense trying to talk sense to someone who thinks
1) Miami and Houston were built through the draft
2) Atlanta is consistently good.
3) The Knicks suck at everything.


Gotta give him kudos though. His badly cherry picked list didn't mention Denver at all.

There may be hope yet.


The next GM is gonna shake that mess up, Denver is not in a good shape right now....even TKF knows it, which is why he didn't mention it.

Denver is exactly what many thought they would be from the start. A good team that is very deep but lacks a go-to player and has way too much money invested in good but not great players.


For a team without a go to scorer, they had remarkably little difficulty scoring in the regular or post-season! Maybe that really wasn't the issue.
This draft proving how hard traditional rebuilding is

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