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Who gets benched?


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gunsnewing
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Looks like it will be Kmart. I would bench Tyson and go the Miami route of small ball. Extra small for us cos prigs and felton are smaller than wade and shuml smaller than Lebron but should do a decent job guarding him. Shumps D has been phenomenal lately. Hes getting back. And he is becoming a good 3pt shooter
Tyson
Kmart
Shumpert
Prigioni
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Author Thread
gunsnewing
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3/24/2013  8:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/24/2013  8:46 AM
Kmart gives you so much more offensively. If Tyson starts im afraid we will go back to slow starts. Tyson melo shump felton prigs is just not enough offense

Tyson could use a reduced role. Hes been banged up all year. Neck and knee now

AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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3/24/2013  9:14 AM
I put this in the other thread but here goes:

Does Shumpert really spread the floor? And what big man spreads the floor for the Clippers or Nuggets?
I'm not saying spreading the floor is irrelevant but it can't outweigh the fact that Tyson rebounds at triple and blocks shots at six times the rate of Shumpert and is almost twice as efficient a scorer as Shumpert.
Tyson is banged up and resting. If they want to give him a few games off the bench to recover that's fine but starting Shumpert over him is not going to help the team advance in the playoffs.

gunsnewing
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3/24/2013  10:49 AM
Shump is hitting 3s now that he has his legs back. Like Martin said tearing the scar tissue is a good thing. Now he is more mobile as evident by the steals and running the floor in transition.

Even if the jumper is not going down he is a perimeter player not someone like tyson and kmart who clog lane cos they cant shoot and get in each others way. I think bringing Tyson off the bench is a brilliant idea when u consider maximizing the roster and limiting Tyson fir health reasons

But Woody is gonna start him and bring kmart off the bench so its a mute point

TeamBall
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3/24/2013  11:23 AM
I guess I dont really mind Kmart coming off the bench as long as Woodsons starts him against bigger teams. Assuming Tyson comes back this week, theres no need for Melo to be guarding Gasol again when we play Memphis.
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gunsnewing
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3/24/2013  11:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/25/2013  11:32 AM
Melo guards randolph which is a complete nightmare for him. Im def not a fan of Melo at the 4. He is not a good enough rebounder and gets overmatched by biggers 4s and takes a beating as we witnessed throughout the year. He has missed a dozen games already
CrushAlot
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3/24/2013  11:41 AM
I agree with Bonn. I think you bring Shump off the bench with JR like last year. I think a frontline of Melo, KMart and Tyson would be a lot for teams to handle. KMart is fresh because he has been off for so long. There aren't back to backs in the playoffs so he should remain playing at or close to his current level. I think he gives the Knicks too much to move him to the bench. I also really like Prigs and Felton starting in the back court together.
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TeamBall
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3/24/2013  11:42 AM
gunsnewing wrote:Melo guards randolph which is a complete nightmare for him. Im def not a fan of Melo at the 4. He is not a good enough rebounder and gets overmatched by biggers 4s and takes a better as weve seen. He has missed a dozen games alreasy

Yeah both are bad for him. Its weird though because the last time we play Memphis, Woodson had Melo guard Gasol and Tyson guard Zbo. I still dont understand why. That game resulted in a slaughter and whole world seeing how easily the Knicks get rattled when they dont get calls.
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Sangfroid
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3/24/2013  12:28 PM
Truly mind boggling decisions. We do gain a lot with Martin starting. I'm thinking it's gonna be situational. When we need bulk, we go with Melo, Martin, Chandler front court. Bringing Shumpert and JR off the bench for defensive intensity. When we need backcourt presence, we go with Shumpert and Felton as the starters, and bring Prigs in from the bench.
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yellowboy90
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3/24/2013  1:03 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/24/2013  1:04 PM
Currently for the month of March Iman is shooting 43.9 from 2 and 46.2 from 3. Overall he is 36.4 and 39.7.

So he has been consistent from three exept for Febuary where he shot 27.3 % but in January he shot 41.2 %. So Iman is doing well at the only thing he had a chance to do this summer as he was rehab, make spot up threes. However, he is still struggling to come back from injury and find his way on this team. Below is a piece on Shump take it for what it is but it is interesting.

http://knickerblogger.net/on-iman-shumperts-current-level-of-production/


« Knicks Morning News (Saturday, Mar 23 2013)
Game thread: Knicks v. Raptors »
On Iman Shumpert’s Current Level of Production

March 23rd, 2013 by max fisher-cohen | @mwfc | Comments | Permalink |

(EDITOR’S NOTE: This is the second installment of a four part examination of what has gone wrong since the Knicks’ 18-5 start—a stretch in which they were beating teams by an average of over seven points a game—and whether or not the Knicks can return [in varying degrees] to their early-season form. You can find part one here.)

Despite the universal love that the fan base has for our 2nd year combo guard, I come to bury Iman, not to praise him. How much Iman Shumpert can and hopefully will improve as he continues to recover from last year’s horrific knee injury and hopefully, to grow as a player, remains an open question (and one for another day). Alas, as of this writing, he is far and away the biggest reason for the Knicks’ struggles.

If you look closely at the other four lineups posted in part one of this series, you may have been surprised by the fact that replacing Smith with Shumpert in our best lineup resulted in a net rating drop of nearly 30 points. Let’s take a closer look at what happens when Shumpert is substituted for anyone else in the grouping of Felton, Kidd, Smith, Anthony and Chandler (again looking at games from January 17th-March 3rd). In this chart, for the sake of clarity, defensive rating is represented inversely so as to make it comparable to ORtg. In other words, a higher DRtg change in this chart indicates that the defense improved.

Shumpert is wrecking every lineup when he’s combined with our best players. Even if we limit our examination to recent games—let’s say March 3rd and beyond—Shumpert is still averaging a +/- per 48 of -15.4 and a net rating of -14.3. The next worst rotation player who has been healthy these last three weeks? That would be Jason Kidd, coming in with a net rating of 1.1 and a +/- of -1.8 per 48. The interesting thing is, Shumpert’s shooting was way up during that span: He shot 43.8% from the field and 45.5% from distance. Still, he remained the vinegar to this team’s oil.

If we go back to my automotive analogy, cars only work with the right parts. If the Knicks are a car—a team that runs well not because of the quality of its parts necessarily but more because of how those parts work together—then perhaps Shumpert is just the wrong part. He’s the truck nuts on a minivan or the loJack strapped to a 1988 Geo Metro. In other words, maybe Shumpert is being used incorrectly or improperly, or maybe there just isn’t a place for him in the style of the Knicks need to play in order to succeed.

So what exactly is happening when Shumpert enters the fray? Take a look at the substitution pattern that is kindest to Shumpert, the one where he replaces Kidd and joins our de facto starters on the floor. Remember, these units include Felton, Smith, Anthony and Chandler. The only difference is that in one, Kidd is the fifth man, while in the other, it’s Shumpert.

*Opponents’ points in the paint per 48 minutes

**Team Average (as well as other stats) are drawn only from that same span of games: 1/17-3/3.

The two data points that jump out, at least on the offensive end, are FTA rate and the 3FGM %AST; both indicate how critical wings that, once they receive a pass, are able to immediately find the flaw in a defense and/or connect with a teammate who can exploit it are to New York’s offensive agenda. Kidd isn’t drawing more fouls than Shumpert nor is he making more open threes. In fact, his shooting during this period was atrocious—23% from the three point line and 32% overall. What he is allowing the Knicks to do is use the space that defenses give when they double Anthony or collapse on a pick and roll, resulting in rhythm threes and advantageous drives from Anthony and Smith.

In short, Shumpert seems to be making bad decisions with the basketball and this year’s Knick model, built to play a more cerebral, half court style, needs guards that make great ones.

Right now, Shumpert just doesn’t have that ability (not many players do), but most talented guards who don’t have great vision (like J.R. Smith) make up for it with the ability to create plays for themselves. Here, Shumpert struggles just as badly. Once he steps inside the three point line, his offense collapses. From midrange, he shoots 33%; he’s at 15% in the paint, and a shockingly bad 36.7% in the restricted area. Those numbers have improved recently, but rather than thanks to improving health, I have another theory as to why—a theory that will be easier to understand after I make the following uncomfortable comparison.

There are some striking similarities between Shump and a post-Melo trade Landry Fields before the latter developed a bit of an off the dribble game/excess tinkering totally discombobulated his jump shot. At a USG rate of 16.6%, Shumpert outpaces Fields’ rookie rate of 13.5% but he is mostly wasting those extra possessions and would be far more effective at this juncture of his career if he restricted his looks to the open spot ups that once were Fields’ bread and butter. Take a look:

(The Fields numbers are before/after instead of on/off because the absence of Felton after the trade would likely confound Fields’ numbers with Anthony on the bench.)


FGM %UAST %PTS off TOs TS% @Rim FG% AST% net rating
Shumpert w/o Anthony 27.3% 25.8% 51.6% 46.2% 12% -3.2
Shumpert w/ Anthony 35.9% 15.0% 44.4% 35.1% 20.6% -9.9

10/11 Fields pre-Anthony 28.8% 21.2% 61.5% 70.1% 8.5% 3.1
10/11 Fields post-Anthony 30.8% 17.7% 56.4% 63.6% 9% -1.4

Fields was often criticized after the trade for his inability to do anything other than shoot open threes. The cuts off ball movement and timely rebounding dropped dramatically as the offense pivoted to accommodate Melo’s skill set. While Shumpert appears to have a better handle, better passing skills than that iteration of Landry and (when healthy) is the superior athlete, the difference between the two is more one of will than skill. Shumpert is more willing to attempt to make plays/force the issue when necessary as illustrated by the jump he experiences in AST% with Anthony. But, when he puts his head down and bulls rim-ward on such ill-advised playmaking forays, Shumpert struggles a lot. By comparison, when given the opportunity, Fieds would usually kick the ball back to another player. Unfortunately, these clock-killing decisions likely had nearly as bad an impact on the Knicks’ offense as Shumpert’s low percentage drives.

The improvements for each at the rim without Anthony are easy to explain: these are more often than not assisted shots, shots where each catches the ball with very little to do to get a quality shot, or they are points off the break, as illustrated by the points off turnover increases.

When a player can neither see the floor well nor create off the dribble against set defenses, that player tends to struggle in an Anthony-led offense, one based on intelligence, patience, and execution more than the single-attack oriented, perimeter and pick and roll oriented offenses that the Knicks tilt towards while Anthony rests. These latter offenses more often create opportunities off the first pass, allowing players like Fields and Shumpert to simply catch passes and then shoot.

If you aren’t convinced (or are just looking for a reason to get more depressed) consider this fact: The Knicks’ current starting lineup shoots only 25% from three. Substitute in Smith, (again, just looking at games after Shumpert returned) and the Knicks’ three point percentage jumps to 42% despite the fact that, in that some period, none of the players in that lineup are shooting better than 36%. It’s relatively simple. Smith’s presence creates open shots and Shumpert’s doesn’t.

Without Señor Carmelo Isolacíon Anthony on the floor, the Knicks offense becomes less systematic (less like a machine, such as a car), and more free flowing, and that sort of offense is one Shumpert can much more ably contribute to.

Shumpert is not a point guard. We became all-too aware of this fun fact early last season. This year, the ridiculous -90.1 plunge to the team’s net rating when he replaces Felton only reinforces that notion. That said, he can be a valuable player if he’s used correctly. The question is, is it worth it to the Knicks to cater to the needs of one player (Shumpert) or would they be sacrificing more than they gained? We’ll save that question for a future installment, however.

Then, of course, there’s the defense—the thing we all love about Shumpert. Well, it’s not showing up in the stats. As our graph indicates, there’s only one lineup in which Shumpert helps the defense and that lineup (the four guard lineup with Shumpert replacing Anthony) and this unit has only played six minutes together all season. It seems that while Shumpert may still be a good man defender, his team defense still isn’t up to snuff, especially when he’s toiling among fellow Knickerbockers that lack athleticism/speed and, as such, is deeply reliant on smart rotations to maintain defensive integrity. Look at the Bockers’ opponents’ three point percentage when Shump’s on the floor versus when Kidd is present. Yes, the Shumpert lineup is better than the overall Knick average, but that number is dramatically inflated by Stoudemire’s presence (or lack thereof). That 12% drop when Shumpert plays makes it tough to argue that he is rotating and closing out with any degree of success.

This clearly isn’t Shumpert’s year. If the Knicks have any hope of making it their year (which one could easily argue they shouldn’t), they need to dramatically reevaluate how they’re using their sole young player.

Up next: Amar’e Stoudemire…

gunsnewing
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3/24/2013  1:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/24/2013  1:07 PM
Sangfroid wrote:Truly mind boggling decisions. We do gain a lot with Martin starting. I'm thinking it's gonna be situational. When we need bulk, we go with Melo, Martin, Chandler front court. Bringing Shumpert and JR off the bench for defensive intensity. When we need backcourt presence, we go with Shumpert and Felton as the starters, and bring Prigs in from the bench.

Now theres a plan! Will our million dollar coach make the adjustments necessary? TBA
Woody needs to use the flexibility to our advantage

yellowboy90
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3/24/2013  1:10 PM
To me it is not about Martin's offense although he is more skilled because he can give you a chance with his shot(not great shooting it), ability to post some, and passing. Despite all those things it is the D that has been better than Tyson because it is consistent D. Tyson has lacked consistency all season long. If Tyson can get back to playing consistent Bball on both ends I do not mind him starting.
blkexec
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3/24/2013  6:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/25/2013  12:53 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:To me it is not about Martin's offense although he is more skilled because he can give you a chance with his shot(not great shooting it), ability to post some, and passing. Despite all those things it is the D that has been better than Tyson because it is consistent D. Tyson has lacked consistency all season long. If Tyson can get back to playing consistent Bball on both ends I do not mind him starting.

I'm surprised I don't hear fans and the media talk about this more often. Tysons on ball defense has been terrible compared to his own standards. Could be due to his willingness to switch and guard pgs. While Martin is better at guarding his man or the pg/sg on those pick and rolls. Same with wallace. This team needs a griddy pf to play with chandler and melo. Sorry amari but he simply doesn't mesh well with those guys....

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
holfresh
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3/24/2013  6:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/24/2013  6:50 PM
I think the way we beat better teams is by playing great defense...So KMart, Chandler and Shump together in the line up is a must..Chandler and KMart together helps rebounding a bunch...Melo can add to that at SF..
markvmc
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3/24/2013  7:03 PM
Have to wait and see if Martin replicates his recent performances against the better teams, but certainly over the past few games, he's given us what Amare had on offense, and added strong defense to that. Still having a hard time cheering for an ex-net, but liking what he's bringing.
jrodmc
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3/25/2013  10:10 AM
CrushAlot wrote:I agree with Bonn. I think you bring Shump off the bench with JR like last year. I think a frontline of Melo, KMart and Tyson would be a lot for teams to handle. KMart is fresh because he has been off for so long. There aren't back to backs in the playoffs so he should remain playing at or close to his current level. I think he gives the Knicks too much to move him to the bench. I also really like Prigs and Felton starting in the back court together.

+1 and we now need an official thread: "Agreeing with Bonn"

I don't understand how Kenyon starting at the 4 is a problem. He has shown he can stay out of Melo's way, he brings the D Stat hasn't even thought about yet (and Copeland might learn 2-4 years from now).

Shump is not the Shumpster yet. Keep his limited innings on the bench for now. Prigs starting right now gets the best out of the weapons we now have on the floor. Let's win games now and get that 2 seed. Ray, shoot that ball!

It's sad (but warranted) that Novak doesn't even get mentioned anymore...if Cope ever starts getting blocks and deflections, we may never see that discount double check again...

nyk4ever
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3/25/2013  10:54 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/25/2013  11:15 AM
you can't beat the heat by playing their game (small-ball) they have the best small-ball team in the league. you have to play your game and force them to change. having chandler forces them to change what they do since the paint gets locked down.

personally, i'd start kenyon/tyson upfront and take pablo out of the starting lineup, sliding melo to the 3. melo isn't a 4, that gimmick works in the regular season, but once the postseason rolls around, in a 7game series, melo needs to be at the 3.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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3/25/2013  11:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/25/2013  11:21 AM
nyk4ever wrote:you can't beat the heat by playing their game (small-ball) they have the best small-ball team in the league. you have to play your game and force them to change. having chandler forces them to change what they do since the paint gets locked down.

personally, i'd start kenyon/tyson upfront and take pablo out of the starting lineup, sliding melo to the 3. melo isn't a 4, that gimmick works in the regular season, but once the postseason rolls around, in a 7game series, melo needs to be at the 3.

Agree 1000% with the last point. Melo at the 4 is a gimmick. The only reason he gets away with it in the regular season is because there are not enough quality bigs like zach randolph to abuse him on the block every night

gunsnewing
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3/25/2013  11:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/25/2013  11:42 AM
Im certainly ok with the tyson kmart melo frontcourt.

I just dont want to see tyson melo and shump felton and prigs and slow starts where we are playing from 15 down every game again because no one other than Melo can score

Unfortunatrly that is the lineup Woodson is going with

Bonn1997
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3/25/2013  12:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/25/2013  12:12 PM
Again? They never have used with that starting lineup
If Tyson and K-Mart are healthy, will the opponent even score 15 1st quarter points?!
gunsnewing
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3/25/2013  12:26 PM
No Bonn im referring to the tyson melo shump felton lineup that cant shoot or score. Im okay with tyson and kmart starting in the frontcourt together but might prefer kmart to start at center with tyson off the bench.

It comes down to what is better in the playoffs. Big front court with no spacing or melo at the 4 getting abused?

Who gets benched?

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