First, not sure why the Knicks have adapted the philosophy of doubling the post espoecially vs. teams tha lack interior threats. Case and point, last night the Knicks repeatedly doubled Lee and even doubled Ezeli in the post. Neither evokes memories of Moses Malone because they do not have a back to the basket game to speak of. So, we doubled them in the post, they swung it out, 2 passes later Klay Thompson one of the best shooters in the league has open 3's in the corner. That is an assinine game plan vs a team that rely's heavily on the perimeter Jay. You stay at home vs. a tream like that. We were defeated the moment that game plan was printed and handed out to the players.

Second, the idea of switch everything or allowing the players to call it is not a good idea. Woodson is a Bobby Knight disciple and Knights philosphy was to switch on picks while at Indy. Not a bad theory when you are coaching college kids who for the most part have similar skill sets and are of similar size. Cant do that in the NBA vs. elite players. How many times are we going to see Chandler stuck on an Island vs a pg? Or Felton stuck behind a big in the paint? Switching is good occasionally to catch the other team off guard but we cant use a steady diet of it. Every now and then, we will trap the high PNR but not enough. That is the best strategy to defend the PNR, imo and we've had success doing it. just need to do that more often.

Third, we are most effective on offense when we get dribble penetration. Felton is the key to our offense. He's most aggressive when Melo is out and he seems to take mor eonto his shoulders. He need s to maintain that same aggressievness. The same aggressiveness he had earlier in the year. He and JR are the only ones who can consistantly collapse the defense and kick or draw contact. We need to get back to that. We have a few sets that we run occasionally, like Horns, High PNR and that triple pick at the top of the key that we run when Novak is in, but we need a play that gets Melo on the move a little more. Maybe some flex cuts on back picks.

All in all, I Think we'll be okay, but I'm a little concerned about our health, lack of energy at times and the defensive lapses we have on more often than not. This road trip could plummet us back to the pack so we really need to pick it up before we return home.

tj23 wrote:We also need a pick n roll game. Tyson Chandler has no clue how to set a screen.

Really? I thought he does so very well.

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Good Points.

You do not double unless you are getting beat down low and even in that case, its when you are getting killed.

You do not double when you play a team that shoots as many 3's as you do but better! Do they not remember what Curry did to them at MSG?

It's unfortunate but Woodson seems to be making the same mistakes as he did in Atlanta. He went ISOJOE there and here it is ISOMELO. The other guys stand around and watch. NY i better when the players move and the ball moves. Simple.

If Woodson does not adjust he will be gone after next season.

NY should pick and roll with Carmelo and Felton. This may create mismatches for Melo and at worse will keep him in motion which should allow him more space. In addition he could go to the hoop more, pull up for mid range shots and get to the line more.

This is what happens when you add max salary guys with a mid level coach.

3G4G wrote:No Contending team is trying to redefine X's and O's this late in the season and it's been apparent the scheme we were trying to run after game 5-6 was not sustainable nor formidable.

Dribble penetration/high PNR was in the playbook during our Oct/November run. Not to mention, our stellar defense was covering up any offensive shortcoming we had. Defense has let us down of late due to what I pointed out in my original post.

Uptown wrote:Nevermind the insane conspiracy theories....Lets get back to talking real basketball. Several things were highlighted last night thats been going on for a while that need to be cleaned up....

First, not sure why the Knicks have adapted the philosophy of doubling the post espoecially vs. teams tha lack interior threats. Case and point, last night the Knicks repeatedly doubled Lee and even doubled Ezeli in the post. Neither evokes memories of Moses Malone because they do not have a back to the basket game to speak of. So, we doubled them in the post, they swung it out, 2 passes later Klay Thompson one of the best shooters in the league has open 3's in the corner. That is an assinine game plan vs a team that rely's heavily on the perimeter Jay. You stay at home vs. a tream like that. We were defeated the moment that game plan was printed and handed out to the players.

Second, the idea of switch everything or allowing the players to call it is not a good idea. Woodson is a Bobby Knight disciple and Knights philosphy was to switch on picks while at Indy. Not a bad theory when you are coaching college kids who for the most part have similar skill sets and are of similar size. Cant do that in the NBA vs. elite players. How many times are we going to see Chandler stuck on an Island vs a pg? Or Felton stuck behind a big in the paint? Switching is good occasionally to catch the other team off guard but we cant use a steady diet of it. Every now and then, we will trap the high PNR but not enough. That is the best strategy to defend the PNR, imo and we've had success doing it. just need to do that more often.

Third, we are most effective on offense when we get dribble penetration. Felton is the key to our offense. He's most aggressive when Melo is out and he seems to take mor eonto his shoulders. He need s to maintain that same aggressievness. The same aggressiveness he had earlier in the year. He and JR are the only ones who can consistantly collapse the defense and kick or draw contact. We need to get back to that. We have a few sets that we run occasionally, like Horns, High PNR and that triple pick at the top of the key that we run when Novak is in, but we need a play that gets Melo on the move a little more. Maybe some flex cuts on back picks.

All in all, I Think we'll be okay, but I'm a little concerned about our health, lack of energy at times and the defensive lapses we have on more often than not. This road trip could plummet us back to the pack so we really need to pick it up before we return home.

Uptown nailed it.

I was going to post this after the Cleveland game where we got HAMMERED in the 1st half with nonsensical double teams but decided not to cuz I got lazy and because we won that game. I thought Woodson made adjustments and that problem was behind us.

Here are the pics from that game to illustrate it:

Kyrie passes to Luke Walton in transition.

Amare decides to help Shump, which KIND of makes sense because his man hasn't made it down court yet.
Raymond Felton also looking at Walton. Why? Beats me.

At this point, JR Smith decides to come down and help. Good thing Kyrie Irving didn't just destroy all comers in the 3 pt shootout right before this game. Because then it wouldn't be crazy to leave him and Alonzo Gee WIDE OPEN right?

Right?

At this point, every single Knicks player is either looking at or within arms reach of Luke Walton. This makes sense as the entire defensive game plan from Coach Mike Woodson surely centered on stopping Luke Walton at all costs.

The ball is passed to Gee, but the attention of all 5 Knick defenders has successfully confused Luke Walton to pass the ball to Gee instead of Irving. That Gee knocks the shot down is of no consequence. You don’t abandon a solid game plan just because it leads to 80% of the other team’s players being wide open. Stick with your principles.

I would have to think there's no way the defensive game plan for the Knicks involved all 5 defenders looking at Luke Walton. HOWEVER there are many times where it looks like official policy is to double the post.

What mystifies me is that this seems to be applied regardless of whether the player being guarded SHOULD actually command a double team. Why guard Shaun Livingston the way you would guard Al Jefferson?

?s:

Are the players simply executing a flawed scheme handed down to them by the coaching staff?
Are the players still not familiar with what the scheme is? Is that on them or failure to teach/communicate clearly by the coaches?

How can a veteran team with a record this good and expectations this high have a 2 month long stretch where the defense is so inconsistent and confused?

ramtour420 wrote:

martin wrote:

tj23 wrote:We also need a pick n roll game. Tyson Chandler has no clue how to set a screen.

Really? I thought he does so very well.

His screens are usually of the moving kind, he gets too excited about rolling towards the hoop instead of setting a good old hard screen, like Crazy Eyes does.

exactly, and when posters on this forum with limited coaching experience can show what Woodson is doing wrong on defensive and on offensive philosophies, imagine what an nba coach with a fully armed scouting report can do.

nixluva wrote:This was an excellent synopsis of the Knicks issues Uptown. I really don't know why things went upside down on the Knicks. It seemed like they had an established style of play, but it didn't last. That's what makes the full 82 game season such a test of not only the team but the coaches as well. Trying to maintain good BB principles over that long a stretch with injuries, other teams adjusting to what you do and slumps is what tests a team and a coaching staff. It's up to Woody to drive home the point that when we won against the Jazz the % of plays that were punctuated by our guards driving was much higher. We can't play stand around and watch style BB.

On D you're totally right about the over-reliance on switching. The real issue is when you switch at the top with the PG and C. That's a horrible switch. We can survive switches among the wings, but PG/C is too much of a mismatch and we shouldn't be doing it.

Thats just it Nix, the league has figured out how to shut down our high PNR which was our bread and butter earlier in the year. Teams are now going under the pick, jamming Tyson in the lane and daring Felton to shoot. Some pick and pop with Felt and Melo would be a nice change up, or even Melo and Chandler running some sideline PNR since the defense would pay for going under and leaving Melo alone 15 feet away. And as I mentioned earlier, we need to get Melo the ball on the move, some pin-downs for Melo popping up from the baseline or some weakside curls while Felton and Chandler run PNR to give Felton another option.

As far as the switching of the Center and PG's, well thats just good coaching and scouting by the opposition. They know we are going to switch so they purposely put that into their game plan. It happens too often for it to be a coincidence.....

gunsnewing wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

martin wrote:

tj23 wrote:We also need a pick n roll game. Tyson Chandler has no clue how to set a screen.

Really? I thought he does so very well.

His screens are usually of the moving kind, he gets too excited about rolling towards the hoop instead of setting a good old hard screen, like Crazy Eyes does.

Same can be said for Amare. It's on Woodson to nail down the fundamentals that Kurt learned long ago. Amare and Tyson are used to scoring off screens and the pick n roll instead of just setting a good nba screen to free up the guard to create. Even ehen we were going well I was not in love with the constant pick n rolls and throwing the ball up in traffic with little post play. Too predictable. Thats why so many kidd, felton, jr passes get deflected. I like Shumpert because he puts mustard on all his passes