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Will this go down as the franchise defining "Bad Move" ?
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Elite
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7/17/2012  11:49 AM
Even with all Isiah did, I think this has the chance to overtake it to be known as the worst move in Knicks history.

All that has to happen for that to be the case is:

1. Lin plays at near all-star level in Houston (18ppg-7apg something like that)
2. Kidd shows that he's old and gets hurt
3. Felton is fat
4. our offense is ineffective because of inability to break down D, need a third scorer... Iso Melo kills us. We are old and slow.

All of this not only seems possible to me but LIKELY.

Givin the circumstance of actually HAVING jeremy lin fall in to our ****ing laps from the hands of god after everyone else passed on him then letting him go BACK to the team that he cut. It becomes almost movie like in terms of ineptitude. Might end up as not only the Knicks worst move in franchise history, but one of the worst moves in sports history given the magnitude of Jeremy Lin's impact.


Bravo...

AUTOADVERT
crzymdups
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7/17/2012  11:50 AM
agree completely.
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Knicksfan
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7/17/2012  11:51 AM
ultimatelin.com
Knicks_Fan
ChuckBuck
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7/17/2012  11:52 AM
If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?
Elite
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7/17/2012  11:55 AM
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

that's the funniest part, no its not even a good move... because it really wouldn't matter much either way in terms of the cap

BasketballJones
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7/17/2012  11:55 AM
If the Knicks actually sign Lin and he flops, would that be a "Good Move"?
https:// It's not so hard.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/17/2012  11:56 AM
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

Exactly.

Then it'll look like one of the BEST moves that the Knicks have ever made. We won't hear about that from the sports media or from most fans who were in favor of the Knicks matching, though.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Elite
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7/17/2012  12:02 PM
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

Exactly.

Then it'll look like one of the BEST moves that the Knicks have ever made. We won't hear about that from the sports media or from most fans who were in favor of the Knicks matching, though.

ABSOLUTELY not, your so wrong. It will look like a prudent FISCAL move.. but not a marginal basketball move. Because not keeping him no matter how average he ends up will have done nothing to increase our chances of flexibility. Just a good money move, not a good basketball move. Even if Lin ends up "average" and Kidd is hurt it looks bad

gunsnewing
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7/17/2012  12:04 PM
Love it when the media talks about how the knicks will have no flexibilty if they match. Like we have flexibility with amare, melo making over 20m each
Knicksfan
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7/17/2012  12:10 PM
gunsnewing wrote:Love it when the media talks about how the knicks will have no flexibilty if they match. Like we have flexibility with amare, melo making over 20m each

Well, media is a bitch, but to their defense, we have not much flexibility without Lin but we will be in flexibility hell with Lin's third year.

Still I would match.

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crzymdups
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7/17/2012  12:11 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ktlincoln/the-complete-comprehensive-case-that-the-knicks-w

Letting Jeremy Lin leave your team and getting nothing in return is like winning the lottery and then feeding your ticket to a pigeon. That much is clear. But when you consider the entire context of the Knicks' situation right now — for one, their alternatives at point guard are a fat guy coming off the worst season of his mediocre career and an old guy who just drunkenly crashed his car into a telephone pole in the Hamptons — the potential move looks even worse.

The clearest way to understand why the Knicks need to keep Lin is to consider the only three possibile outcomes of the team's decision: they keep Lin, and he's great; they keep Lin, and he sucks; and they ditch him and give the starting job to Raymond Felton. A lot of excellent analysis has been done on Lin's potential impact on the team, so let's consider all of it in the context of the choices the team actually has, rather than forefronting gut reactions ($60 million is a lot of money! I had a good time watching Knicks games last Februrary!). It's time to look into the future — all the way to the year 2015.

SITUATION ONE: The Knicks keep Lin, and he's great.

The reason why New York could end up smothering this opportunity before it comes to fruition is, presumably, salary-cap based. Trying to deter the Knicks from matching their offer to Lin, the Houston Rockets offered him a contract that, given the Knicks' already-sizable salary commitments, would ultimately cost the team something like $60 million when penalties for exceeding the salary cap are included.

(Speaking of which: guess how the Knicks spent the last week leading up to receiving Houston's bid for Lin, which they knew was coming? Signing Steve Novak, Jason Kidd, and Raymond Felton plus the 38-year-old Marcus Camby to contracts that pay out a combined $10+ million in 2014-15 salaries! How about that.)

By most accounts, though, that tax penalty is chump change compared to what the Knicks could earn by keeping Lin. Wins in and of themselves are worth a lot, and if Lin keeps up the pace he set in 2012, or, better yet, improves — not unlikely for a 23-year-old with a renowned work ethic — he will unquestionably make the Knicks a better team. And better teams make more money. Considering New York's choices, this is the only option with any upside, because the only possible way to see upside in professional sports is to win — the amount of money you can make off of an unsuccessful team is limited. But if Lin does pan out, and the Knicks remain a contender, every informed observer says they will recoup the tax penalties.

SITUATION TWO: The Knicks keep Lin, and he sucks.

This might seem like the worst option at first: the Knicks sign Lin, he's immediately a disappointment, and they're bound into his contract through 2015. But here's the part that no one seems to acknowledge: there's very little chance that this roster will be intact in 2014-15 anyway. Of the players currently signed to the team, the longest-tenured is Amar'e Stoudemire, who has been a Knick for all of two seasons. In 2009-10, there wasn't a single player on New York who remains with the team. Three years passed, and the entire roster flipped.

This kind of roster turnover, particularly for an ownership-ravaged team like the Knicks, is more the rule than the exception in basketball these days. That doesn't mean the Knicks should disregard planning for the future; instead, it shines a light on why Lin's contract would actually be a positive for the team, and would add to what will already be a deep treasure-chest: it's expiring. So is Melo's; so is Stoudemire's. Expiring contracts are a coveted and desirable trade asset, because they provide cap relief for the receiving team the next year. If Lin turns out to be terrible and the Knicks, say, miss the playoffs in 2013-2014, the team would have no problem unloading Stoudemire, even with his huge 2014-15 cap number, over the offseason to a team that wanted to clear their books. They could do the same for Lin. If the Knicks sign him and he doesn't work out, the structure of his contract would actually HELP them in 2015. (They could also drop $10 million off their salary cap just by cutting him, as explained here.)

SITUATION THREE: The Knicks replace Lin with Raymond Felton.

As a basketball move, swapping Lin for Felton would be an abomination. Felton is a below-average basketball player coming off a year in which he played overweight and reportedly irritated every man, woman, and vegan in Portland. On his career, Felton has a 14.4 PER — below average — and a pretty terrible 109 defensive rating, six points worse than his 103 offensive rating. ESPN's TrueHoop did a nice job of breaking down how Lin was better than Felton in almost every category last year, and it's last year's numbers that matter. Despite some observers calling for Felton's Knicks numbers from 2010-11 to be compared to Lin's, that seems a little arbitrary given that Lin's numbers came while playing with teammates like Iman Shumpert, Tyson Chandler, Novak and JR Smith who are still on the team, while Felton's were notched with guys like Wilson Chandler and Danilo Gallinari. Only Amar'e Stoudemire played with both Lin and Felton, and it seems likely that his pick-and-roll game fits well with either point guard.

Regardless of how you feel about Jeremy Lin, Raymond Felton's ceiling has been well-established; he's a known quantity. An average quantity. A Knicks team that plays Raymond Felton at point guard will be only a tiny bit better than the team that lost last year's first-round playoff series to the Heat. In a conference whose top tier is only getting better — the Heat just added Ray Allen; the Celtics are replacing Allen with Jason Terry while adding Jeff Green and apparent draft steal Jared Sullinger; the Nets have Joe Johnson now; a young, improving Pacers team has gotten deeper; we haven't even mentioned the Bulls — a 2012-2013 Knicks team featuring Raymond Felton at the point is going to lose in the first round of the playoffs or, maybe, AT BEST, the second. Which will leave them in a position of having to add salary to have any chance at winning by 2015, which is the expiration date for the current core of Chandler, Stoudemire, and Anthony. Which will leave them paying the luxury tax for a player less valuable off the court than Jeremy Lin.

Last year, Lin put up the numbers of a top-10 point guard — his PER was basically identical to the newly max-contracted Deron Williams — and if he can keep up anything approaching this pace, not only will this contract not be bad: it will be a steal. The only move for the Knicks that has any upside is keeping Lin, because if he suddenly becomes terrible, that has the same, and arguably even a better, outcome than giving the reins to Raymond Felton, in that, in addition to the aforementioned reasons, they won't have kicked all of their fans in the crotch to get there. Not to mention that, let's face it, he won't be terrible. Critics are acting like Lin's this completely unknown commodity, but he played half of an NBA season at an exceedingly high level, and there's no better proof of a player's ability to succeed in the NBA than NBA games. (Not to mention that he has the profile you'd like even if he hadn't had that great run: size, quickness, scoring and passing instincts.) No player that scored more points than Lin in his first five starts has ever flopped... because no player since the advent of the modern NBA in 1976 has ever scored more points in his first five games than Jeremy Lin. Sure, guys have had brief stretches of brilliance before fading into obscurity before, but between injuries and all the other variables of professional basketball, no one's a certain quantity anyway.

But in the deep, dark reaches of Jim Dolan's peanut brain, something has caused him to ignore this logic. Not initially surprising — ignoring logic is what has characterized the last decade of the Knicks' franchise. But in the past, New York was constantly grasping at straws, gambling on various players simply because of the hype surrounding them. And the worst thing about the Lin situation is that this time around, blindly seeking hype would lead to the correct decision on the merits. A miracle has fortuitously fallen in the team's lap, and the inability to recognize it speaks to an even deeper perversity than anyone could have imagined.

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franco12
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7/17/2012  12:12 PM
Elite wrote:
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

Exactly.

Then it'll look like one of the BEST moves that the Knicks have ever made. We won't hear about that from the sports media or from most fans who were in favor of the Knicks matching, though.

ABSOLUTELY not, your so wrong. It will look like a prudent FISCAL move.. but not a marginal basketball move. Because not keeping him no matter how average he ends up will have done nothing to increase our chances of flexibility. Just a good money move, not a good basketball move. Even if Lin ends up "average" and Kidd is hurt it looks bad

If the Knicks don't match and Lin turns ordinary or hurt or whatever, they will have been lucky.

CrushAlot
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7/17/2012  12:16 PM
Elite wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

that's the funniest part, no its not even a good move... because it really wouldn't matter much either way in terms of the cap

His contract will have a huge impact on the cap. Say goodbye to shump any other young guys the Knicks get and draft picks that get moved to help unload stats contract.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
crzymdups
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7/17/2012  12:19 PM
franco12 wrote:
Elite wrote:
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

Exactly.

Then it'll look like one of the BEST moves that the Knicks have ever made. We won't hear about that from the sports media or from most fans who were in favor of the Knicks matching, though.

ABSOLUTELY not, your so wrong. It will look like a prudent FISCAL move.. but not a marginal basketball move. Because not keeping him no matter how average he ends up will have done nothing to increase our chances of flexibility. Just a good money move, not a good basketball move. Even if Lin ends up "average" and Kidd is hurt it looks bad

If the Knicks don't match and Lin turns ordinary or hurt or whatever, they will have been lucky.

that's a really weak argument. but if it makes you feel better about letting our best young player walk for nothing i guess that's good.

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MS
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7/17/2012  12:29 PM
Here's the thing. This is a no win situation for the Knicks. If they don't match and he plays similiar to what he did last year, there will be fan backlash like this city has never seen before.

However if he turns out to be marginal and overpaid or even a backup making 15MM who really gives a ****. Dolan payed Eddie Curry who probably prevented the Knicks from grabbing Lebron 11MM a season and we lost Noah/Aldrige as a result. He paid 6.5MM to Jerome James who never played and thanks to Jefferies horrible contract we traded a lottery pick and a 1st rounder to shread it.

Let's not forget Isiah turning two late round draft pics into 9MM of Malik Rose against the cap for David Lee when he could have just bought the pick. Or trading Kurt Thomas for a lousy Richardson contract.

The Knicks are the worst run franchise in all major sports over the past decade. So they are going to match this contract, because they are paying 6MM to Camby and Kidd who won't be effective in year three, Novak 4MM whose also questionable and Amare's bloated salary.

You need youth and you need depth. Dolan maybe an *******, but he's not this stupid

Jmpasq
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7/17/2012  12:33 PM
Elite wrote:Even with all Isiah did, I think this has the chance to overtake it to be known as the worst move in Knicks history.

All that has to happen for that to be the case is:

1. Lin plays at near all-star level in Houston (18ppg-7apg something like that)
2. Kidd shows that he's old and gets hurt
3. Felton is fat
4. our offense is ineffective because of inability to break down D, need a third scorer... Iso Melo kills us. We are old and slow.

All of this not only seems possible to me but LIKELY.

Givin the circumstance of actually HAVING jeremy lin fall in to our ****ing laps from the hands of god after everyone else passed on him then letting him go BACK to the team that he cut. It becomes almost movie like in terms of ineptitude. Might end up as not only the Knicks worst move in franchise history, but one of the worst moves in sports history given the magnitude of Jeremy Lin's impact.


Bravo...

Numbers in Houston would be meaningless. Pretty much a given Lin will put up better numbers there the team sux.Lin fans will ignore that and just bash the Knicks

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Ira
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7/17/2012  12:35 PM
I don't think it's going to be as big a deal as people think. I think Lin will be a little better than Felton, but the difference won't be that big.
fishmike
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7/17/2012  12:35 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Elite wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

that's the funniest part, no its not even a good move... because it really wouldn't matter much either way in terms of the cap

His contract will have a huge impact on the cap. Say goodbye to shump any other young guys the Knicks get and draft picks that get moved to help unload stats contract.


please give me a list of players who have left the Knicks because the KNicks couldnt afford to pay them. Name one... We had an $80 million payroll of losing players and we give $30mm contracts to Jerome JAmes, Clarence Weatherspoon, Jared Jefferies not to mention adding max guys like Zach

The Knicks have problems getting talent. Keeping it isnt an issue

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
mrKnickShot
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7/17/2012  12:35 PM
I can't wait to play Houston and be the recipient of all those turnovers
franco12
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7/17/2012  12:36 PM
crzymdups wrote:
franco12 wrote:
Elite wrote:
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:If Lin falls flat on his face, is it a "Good Move"?

Exactly.

Then it'll look like one of the BEST moves that the Knicks have ever made. We won't hear about that from the sports media or from most fans who were in favor of the Knicks matching, though.

ABSOLUTELY not, your so wrong. It will look like a prudent FISCAL move.. but not a marginal basketball move. Because not keeping him no matter how average he ends up will have done nothing to increase our chances of flexibility. Just a good money move, not a good basketball move. Even if Lin ends up "average" and Kidd is hurt it looks bad

If the Knicks don't match and Lin turns ordinary or hurt or whatever, they will have been lucky.

that's a really weak argument. but if it makes you feel better about letting our best young player walk for nothing i guess that's good.

No - I am with you. I think they should match.

Its a gamble. The upside is too great not to roll the dice.

I'm merely stating what will be hindsight if they don't match and it flops. The best thing you'll be able to say is they were lucky & dodged a bullet.

If they sign him and he flops - then you can say at least they went for it, and in sports, its always about going for it.

Why do prevent defenses always fail? Because its the 'safe' thing to do.

Will this go down as the franchise defining "Bad Move" ?

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