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Woodson shuts down Kay
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gunsnewing
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3/19/2012  3:49 PM
and the rest of the media. Kay brought up that the criticism of him is that he went ISO in Atlanta with Joe Johnson. Mike pointed out the fact that they scored 101pts and allowed 97 and led the league in fewest turnovers and had 6 players average double figures. It wasn't like Joe Johnson was averaging 30 and the rest of the guys were catering to him. Always nice to see guys like Kay & Steven A shut down.
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nixluva
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3/19/2012  4:38 PM
Under Woody the Hawks made slow but steady progress every year and that peaked in his last year at 53-29. That team made it to the 2nd round in the playoffs 2 consecutive years. He was fired cuz The Hawks were swept in the 2nd rd 2 years in a row and:

During the 2009-10 season, Hawks owners implored then-coach Mike Woodson to give more minutes to rookie guard Jeff Teague and less to All-Star guard Joe Johnson. The owners also wanted Woodson to steer the Hawks away from the isolation-heavy offense, the people knowledgeable of the conversations said.

Woodson didn't do any of those things to the owners' satisfaction, which were major reasons he was not retained after the season

Woodson’s last Atlanta team was criticized for its failure to make defensive adjustments when getting bombed by Orlando in the 2010 playoffs

Now Woody has a much better team to work with and he doesn't have to come up with an offense on his own. He's already got some things based on MDA's offense and he can add his own touches to create a hybrid offense. People feared that Woody would pull back on using JLin, based on his offense in ATL. Thank goodness he didn't do that, cuz what he has here is a much more flexible offense, where he can still go ISO, but he's got a lot more player and ball movement here and it will be harder to defend in the playoffs than his offense in ATL was. Like a player Woody seems to have grown from his time in ATL. He's not necessarily the same coach he was then.

Also this team is a better defensive team than he had in ATL. Overall Woody has more tools to work with now than he did then and he's also a new voice to these players rather than an old voice as he was at the end in ATL. All very positive things in his favor this time.

mrKnickShot
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3/19/2012  4:47 PM
Nixluva,

"Now Woody has a much better team to work with and he doesn't have to come up with an offense on his own. He's already got some things based on MDA's offense"

Do you really need to keep repeating this? We are having such a nice day of camaraderie on this board. Woody will run woody's offense. Is he running jerry sloan's offense also every time they run a PnR?

Please! Let it go. Let's all move on and let crap like this go. It won't get you anywhere.

nehemiah
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3/19/2012  4:52 PM
Things are okay thus far, but I do want to state that what a coach wants and what happens on the court are not always the same. Woody has made it pretty clear that from the beginning things would go through Melo and Amare and did not mention Lin. Also, from what we can see, Woody wants Lin to shoot less, not more. My opinion is that Woody would prefer Lin to score less than double digits, while getting his assists way up.

May work in theory, but this is a flawed philosophy. Scoring and assists are not mutually exclusive. Lin's at his best when he can get good numbers on both. It makes sense as well -- if he is dishing well, then it becomes difficult to guard his scoring as you have to play the other scorers. If he is scoring well, well then that will tend to open up other players. If Lin is shooting 60%. well even Woody will not be able to say much without looking unreasonable. However, watch when Lin misses a couple in a row -- he will pull on the reins faster than you can say La La.

crzymdups
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3/19/2012  5:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2012  5:00 PM
nehemiah wrote:Things are okay thus far, but I do want to state that what a coach wants and what happens on the court are not always the same. Woody has made it pretty clear that from the beginning things would go through Melo and Amare and did not mention Lin. Also, from what we can see, Woody wants Lin to shoot less, not more. My opinion is that Woody would prefer Lin to score less than double digits, while getting his assists way up.

May work in theory, but this is a flawed philosophy. Scoring and assists are not mutually exclusive. Lin's at his best when he can get good numbers on both. It makes sense as well -- if he is dishing well, then it becomes difficult to guard his scoring as you have to play the other scorers. If he is scoring well, well then that will tend to open up other players. If Lin is shooting 60%. well even Woody will not be able to say much without looking unreasonable. However, watch when Lin misses a couple in a row -- he will pull on the reins faster than you can say La La.

That bolded part is completely unsubstantiated and made up. Woodson has asked Amar'e and Melo to be the focal points because that's what they're best at - scoring, he never said Lin wasn't a key player or that Lin couldn't score. You're reading too much into it.

¿ △ ?
nixluva
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3/19/2012  5:04 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:Nixluva,

"Now Woody has a much better team to work with and he doesn't have to come up with an offense on his own. He's already got some things based on MDA's offense"

Do you really need to keep repeating this? We are having such a nice day of camaraderie on this board. Woody will run woody's offense. Is he running jerry sloan's offense also every time they run a PnR?

Please! Let it go. Let's all move on and let crap like this go. It won't get you anywhere.

I'm just stating facts. The guy has the luxury of being able to mix some of what the team has already proven successful at doing with some of his own concepts. Only you seem to think that this is somehow a controversial point. Lin himself has said that they're still basically running the same offense and defense with a few more ISO's. There isn't enough time to totally revamp the offense now. This isn't some vendetta I have, it's just the facts.

Woody was blasted for his lack of creativity on offense. There was no ball sharing and tho it worked for them up to a point, what he has now will be much harder to guard come playoff time. I like what Woody has done with the offense and defense. He's made things easier for the players with some more post ups and ISO's.

mrKnickShot
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3/19/2012  5:18 PM
nixluva wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:Nixluva,

"Now Woody has a much better team to work with and he doesn't have to come up with an offense on his own. He's already got some things based on MDA's offense"

Do you really need to keep repeating this? We are having such a nice day of camaraderie on this board. Woody will run woody's offense. Is he running jerry sloan's offense also every time they run a PnR?

Please! Let it go. Let's all move on and let crap like this go. It won't get you anywhere.

I'm just stating facts. The guy has the luxury of being able to mix some of what the team has already proven successful at doing with some of his own concepts. Only you seem to think that this is somehow a controversial point. Lin himself has said that they're still basically running the same offense and defense with a few more ISO's. There isn't enough time to totally revamp the offense now. This isn't some vendetta I have, it's just the facts.

Woody was blasted for his lack of creativity on offense. There was no ball sharing and tho it worked for them up to a point, what he has now will be much harder to guard come playoff time. I like what Woody has done with the offense and defense. He's made things easier for the players with some more post ups and ISO's.

I don't really care to dispute if its fact or not because it's a silly argument. It's like when people in my firm try to make sure that they receive credit all the time and continuously state their case when nobody asked them. They end up being disrespected and frowned upon since they come across so insecure.

There is no need to keep repeating this. "but it's true!" - so what if it is - or isn't. Let it go. You're better than that. It's like the Dustin Hoffman/Rain Man example that I gave you ...

misterearl
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3/19/2012  5:31 PM
Law And Order

nixluva wrote:Woody was blasted for his lack of creativity on offense. There was no ball sharing and tho it worked for them up to a point, what he has now will be much harder to guard come playoff time. I like what Woody has done with the offense and defense. He's made things easier for the players with some more post ups and ISO's.

Lack of creativity?

Let's get one thing straight nixluva, Mike Woodson does not handle the ball, shoot the ball or defend the ball. With all due respect, for you to critique ball sharing without the context is not valid. Take another look at the players who were supposed to do the sharing. Your talk of "creativity" conveniently overlooks the fatally flawed roster that Woodson was given in Atlanta.

The self-centered Josh Smith makes Carmelo Anthony look like Magic Johnson. Marvin Williams has a decent game once every two weeks. In addition, the isolation play of Joe Johnson is 90 per cent of what he does. I am also convinced the painfully inarticulate Johnson has a learning disability.

What did they have in common?

They all share the same skill set. Average to below average basketball intuition and intellect. They are all between 6'7 and 6'9. By the time Al Horford came on the set, there were four forwards plotting to get their own shot. There was no guard and no center.

You do the math.

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Anji
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3/19/2012  5:53 PM
crzymdups wrote:
nehemiah wrote:Things are okay thus far, but I do want to state that what a coach wants and what happens on the court are not always the same. Woody has made it pretty clear that from the beginning things would go through Melo and Amare and did not mention Lin. Also, from what we can see, Woody wants Lin to shoot less, not more. My opinion is that Woody would prefer Lin to score less than double digits, while getting his assists way up.

May work in theory, but this is a flawed philosophy. Scoring and assists are not mutually exclusive. Lin's at his best when he can get good numbers on both. It makes sense as well -- if he is dishing well, then it becomes difficult to guard his scoring as you have to play the other scorers. If he is scoring well, well then that will tend to open up other players. If Lin is shooting 60%. well even Woody will not be able to say much without looking unreasonable. However, watch when Lin misses a couple in a row -- he will pull on the reins faster than you can say La La.

That bolded part is completely unsubstantiated and made up. Woodson has asked Amar'e and Melo to be the focal points because that's what they're best at - scoring, he never said Lin wasn't a key player or that Lin couldn't score. You're reading too much into it.


Their focal points to make things easy for Lin, that's make take anyway. Those three are the offense for the first unit. And I like who are 1st unit is the inside orientated.
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nixluva
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3/19/2012  6:15 PM
misterearl wrote:Law And Order

nixluva wrote:Woody was blasted for his lack of creativity on offense. There was no ball sharing and tho it worked for them up to a point, what he has now will be much harder to guard come playoff time. I like what Woody has done with the offense and defense. He's made things easier for the players with some more post ups and ISO's.

Lack of creativity?

Let's get one thing straight nixluva, Mike Woodson does not handle the ball, shoot the ball or defend the ball. With all due respect, for you to critique ball sharing without the context is not valid. Take another look at the players who were supposed to do the sharing. Your talk of "creativity" conveniently overlooks the fatally flawed roster that Woodson was given in Atlanta.

The self-centered Josh Smith makes Carmelo Anthony look like Magic Johnson. Marvin Williams has a decent game once every two weeks. In addition, the isolation play of Joe Johnson is 90 per cent of what he does. I am also convinced the painfully inarticulate Johnson has a learning disability.

What did they have in common?

They all share the same skill set. Average to below average basketball intuition and intellect. They are all between 6'7 and 6'9. By the time Al Horford came on the set, there were four forwards plotting to get their own shot. There was no guard and no center.

You do the math.

I'm fully aware of who Woody had on the team. That still didn't mean that they had to run as much ISO as they did. He's the one who ran the offense and as such what they ran was what he called. It worked out well enough for them to get to the 2nd rd, so it wasn't as bad as it is often perceived, but it still was a hard sell. I didn't create this narrative of Woody's coaching, I posted what other said about him. There's a reason people feared he might do the same thing here.

My only point is that he didn't have to make that kind of change here, since they already have a handle on Ball and Player movement with the offense they've been running. He only had to tweak it and put in his touches, which have been good moves. I think you're overreacting to my post about him. Nothing I wrote was inaccurate or overly critical. Just the facts.

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3/19/2012  6:24 PM
nixluva wrote:Under Woody the Hawks made slow but steady progress every year and that peaked in his last year at 53-29. That team made it to the 2nd round in the playoffs 2 consecutive years. He was fired cuz The Hawks were swept in the 2nd rd 2 years in a row and:

During the 2009-10 season, Hawks owners implored then-coach Mike Woodson to give more minutes to rookie guard Jeff Teague and less to All-Star guard Joe Johnson. The owners also wanted Woodson to steer the Hawks away from the isolation-heavy offense, the people knowledgeable of the conversations said.

Woodson didn't do any of those things to the owners' satisfaction, which were major reasons he was not retained after the season

Woodson’s last Atlanta team was criticized for its failure to make defensive adjustments when getting bombed by Orlando in the 2010 playoffs

Now Woody has a much better team to work with and he doesn't have to come up with an offense on his own. He's already got some things based on MDA's offense and he can add his own touches to create a hybrid offense. People feared that Woody would pull back on using JLin, based on his offense in ATL. Thank goodness he didn't do that, cuz what he has here is a much more flexible offense, where he can still go ISO, but he's got a lot more player and ball movement here and it will be harder to defend in the playoffs than his offense in ATL was. Like a player Woody seems to have grown from his time in ATL. He's not necessarily the same coach he was then.

Also this team is a better defensive team than he had in ATL. Overall Woody has more tools to work with now than he did then and he's also a new voice to these players rather than an old voice as he was at the end in ATL. All very positive things in his favor this time.

In past discussions about D'Antoni you have said he was at a tremendous disadvantage taking over for Frank Johnson in Phoenix and that was why his team finished 20 games under .500 for his part of the season. Is it an advantage to come in as an interim part way through the season now?
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
arkrud
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3/19/2012  6:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2012  6:37 PM
Woody knows that he is not a genius of a coach... So he had to do the work.
Substitutions, timeouts, looking when players are wearing out, do offensive/defensive adjustments based on what other teams are doing, scouting. etc.
Looks like he is much more into it that was. It was all boring stuff for D'Antony left for assistants to manage.
always needed somebody to do in-game management for him (Nash) and players who are intelligent and responsible without coach screaming on them every other time.
So far looks like Woody is better guy with the personal Knicks have now.
Is he good to contend? I don't think so. He will be out-coached by top coaches.
But for now he is good enough.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
nixluva
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3/19/2012  6:45 PM
CrushAlot wrote:In past discussions about D'Antoni you have said he was at a tremendous disadvantage taking over for Frank Johnson in Phoenix and that was why his team finished 20 games under .500 for his part of the season. Is it an advantage to come in as an interim part way through the season now?

You severely oversimplified my points from back then. The 2 situations are completely different. For one thing at that time the Suns also made a trade sending some Vets away and leaving a mostly young and developing team. Also despite the record they finished with, they kept MDA cuz they liked what they saw in the development of the players. The aspirations for this team and that team are totally different. Here Woody took hold of a roster that was getting healthy physically and not losing players. This team has higher aspirations than that Suns team and the pieces to accomplish a lot more. That team was looking for a restart. This team is looking to get on track for a long playoff run.

I still don't get the opposition to my points. For one thing when has Woody shown a lot of creativity in his offensive schemes? He was head coach of ATL for years and developed a rep for a lack of offensive creativity. That's not my opinion, that's the consensus of all media and analysts who watched his teams. What proof do you have that he's a creative offensive coach based on his previous work where the offense was all his.

I'm not anti Woody. I LIKE what he's done so far in the 3 games he's coached. We still have to see how things go, but I like it and have said so many times. I like and support this coach and hope that he is successful the rest of the way and can secure the job.

mrKnickShot
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3/19/2012  6:57 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:In past discussions about D'Antoni you have said he was at a tremendous disadvantage taking over for Frank Johnson in Phoenix and that was why his team finished 20 games under .500 for his part of the season. Is it an advantage to come in as an interim part way through the season now?

You severely oversimplified my points from back then. The 2 situations are completely different. For one thing at that time the Suns also made a trade sending some Vets away and leaving a mostly young and developing team. Also despite the record they finished with, they kept MDA cuz they liked what they saw in the development of the players. The aspirations for this team and that team are totally different. Here Woody took hold of a roster that was getting healthy physically and not losing players. This team has higher aspirations than that Suns team and the pieces to accomplish a lot more. That team was looking for a restart. This team is looking to get on track for a long playoff run.

I still don't get the opposition to my points. For one thing when has Woody shown a lot of creativity in his offensive schemes? He was head coach of ATL for years and developed a rep for a lack of offensive creativity. That's not my opinion, that's the consensus of all media and analysts who watched his teams. What proof do you have that he's a creative offensive coach based on his previous work where the offense was all his.

I'm not anti Woody. I LIKE what he's done so far in the 3 games he's coached. We still have to see how things go, but I like it and have said so many times. I like and support this coach and hope that he is successful the rest of the way and can secure the job.

You flip flop worse than Al Gore. You like him but continue with your subtle digs. Nixluva, we are not stupid and see your angle and motives. Did you always like him?

Was JVG a creative coach? Sometimes simplifying the "system" makes you more creative.

yellowboy90
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3/19/2012  7:08 PM
Why do you guys constantly respond to each other posts when you both know it will get no where. Agree to disagree. Move on. Just ignore each others post. Its not hard.
BasketballJones
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3/19/2012  7:12 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:Why do you guys constantly respond to each other posts when you both know it will get no where. Agree to disagree. Move on. Just ignore each others post. Its not hard.

Because no discussion = no board.

https:// It's not so hard.
mrKnickShot
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3/19/2012  7:23 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:Why do you guys constantly respond to each other posts when you both know it will get no where. Agree to disagree. Move on. Just ignore each others post. Its not hard.

No way! Nixluva is the only reason I spend so much time on this board. I live for this! How about you stop eating ice cream.

knicks1248
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3/19/2012  7:23 PM
.) One taking over the team this late in the season, and during the cramped schedule: "Well, it's been tough. This is the first time I've been in this position as a coach, taking over for someone who brought you in. And the fact that we've had a funny season with all the games coming at us so fast, it's just hard to prepare and to be able to practice. There's just not enough time in the day to do that."

2.) On the main difference during the team's three-game winning streak: "The energy level is much higher. We fell out of the playoff hunt in that six-game stretch and guys are hungry. I mean, we've got to make the playoffs and I think once we do, anything is possible. But I think guys are really pushing each other. I'm holding people more accountable and trying to get these guys to play at a high level and we've done that these last three games."

3.) On if the team quit Mike D'Antoni: "Well, I'm not going to say that. I think Mike was pushing and coaching and trying to get the most out of these guys and we just weren't getting it done. For whatever reason, Mike just felt compelled to walk away. And he has that right to do that. It was a shock to all of us."

4.) On if his system is better suited than D'Antoni's for the team: "I'm not knocking Mike's system. The short time I've been around Mike, I liked a lot of things that he's done. And we're still doing some of the things that he did on the floor. I'm adding things gradually, but I would be foolish to completely abandon Mike's system, because I just don't have enough time to really implement all the things that I want to implement. We're mixing it up from an offensive standpoint. But I'm more impressed with the defensive side of the ball."

5.) On using Jeremy Lin less in the offense, as some predict because of his preference for running the offense through the best playmaker (in this case, Anthony): "Absolutely not. A lot of you press people and just fans and people in general that watch our team ... He's a young point guard who's still learning how to play at a high level and learn how to play NBA basketball. I mean, the point guard is the toughest position on any team, I don't care what level it is. It's just like a quarterback, a pitcher. They're tough positions and it's no different with him. I think Mike's system was great for him, but my system will be great for him. We'll still run pick-and-rolls, which we've done in this stretch."

6.) On why he believes in holding players accountable: "I was able and was fortunate enough, thanks to the ownership in Atlanta with the Hawks, to give me a young team to build. I had the opportunity to work with that team for six years. I think when you take young 18, 19, 20-year-old young men and try to teach them NBA basketball, it's not easy and there's a learning curve. If you're not disciplined and pushing and trying to seek guys to play at a high level, you're not going to be successful managing that team. And I was successful I like to think building that Atlanta Hawks team. I've got to make sure that the guys do play hard and they're well-prepared when they step on the basketball floor."

7.) On being called an isolation-heavy coach: "No, not at all. I don't agree with it because we had six guys that averaged in double figures on that team that went 53-29. I don't think we get enough credit for that. We were No. 1 in not turning it over. We were like third in the league in offensive efficiency that year. We were like fifth or sixth in fastbreak points, so I don't know where this isolation basketball came from. If I think if we're an isolation basketball team, then you got one guy averaging 30 something points and everybody else is trying to figure it out. I think people blew the isolation basketball thing out of proportion. We just had a good offensive team and we shared the ball.

"At the end of the day, I'm going to go to Carmelo [Anthony] and I'm going to go to Amare [Stoudemire]. I'm going to go to our best players that I think can get the job done or the player that might be hot that night. The players on this team know that Carmelo and Amare, who've done it at a high level, respect what they do and will make plays down the stretch."

8.) On the team's depth and rotations: "It's the first time that I've had this much talent and it's the first time that I've been in the position where I can play nine, 10 guys. I wasn't this deep in Atlanta, so I played eight guys. I can play 10 guys if I need to. That's the luxury of having a team that has players that can play at a high level and don't hurt you when they come in the game. Our bench has been great during this stretch and I can't emphasize it enough: they're just as important as the guys who start the game."

9.) On if the Knicks can win a championship this season: "Absolutely. That's the only reason why I came to New York. I do think we can win a title and it starts tomorrow night. It starts each time we step out on the practice floor. We're playing for something right now. We just got back in the playoff hunt and we've got to continue to grow and push each other to see if we can move up. It's not impossible, maybe win our division. We've got to get in the playoffs first, and once you get in there, it's an entirely different season and anything is possible."

10.) On if Larry Brown, who Woodson worked with in Detroit when the Pistons won the championship in 2004, is his biggest influence: "He's one of them, absolutely. Bob Knight's been a big influence, my high school coach. All the coaches who I've worked for and played for have been major influences in my life. [Former Knicks coach] Red Holzman, who got me at an early age when I came out college to the pros. I just want guys to play hard and do the right thing when they're out on the basketball floor, and if they don't give effort, then it's my job to let them know they're not giving effort, because it's not fair to the fans and it's not fair to the ownership group, it's unfair to your teammates and it's unfair to me as a coach. If I'm slacking, I expect them to go at me and say,

ES
nixluva
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3/19/2012  7:39 PM
mrKnickShot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:In past discussions about D'Antoni you have said he was at a tremendous disadvantage taking over for Frank Johnson in Phoenix and that was why his team finished 20 games under .500 for his part of the season. Is it an advantage to come in as an interim part way through the season now?

You severely oversimplified my points from back then. The 2 situations are completely different. For one thing at that time the Suns also made a trade sending some Vets away and leaving a mostly young and developing team. Also despite the record they finished with, they kept MDA cuz they liked what they saw in the development of the players. The aspirations for this team and that team are totally different. Here Woody took hold of a roster that was getting healthy physically and not losing players. This team has higher aspirations than that Suns team and the pieces to accomplish a lot more. That team was looking for a restart. This team is looking to get on track for a long playoff run.

I still don't get the opposition to my points. For one thing when has Woody shown a lot of creativity in his offensive schemes? He was head coach of ATL for years and developed a rep for a lack of offensive creativity. That's not my opinion, that's the consensus of all media and analysts who watched his teams. What proof do you have that he's a creative offensive coach based on his previous work where the offense was all his.

I'm not anti Woody. I LIKE what he's done so far in the 3 games he's coached. We still have to see how things go, but I like it and have said so many times. I like and support this coach and hope that he is successful the rest of the way and can secure the job.

You flip flop worse than Al Gore. You like him but continue with your subtle digs. Nixluva, we are not stupid and see your angle and motives. Did you always like him?

Was JVG a creative coach? Sometimes simplifying the "system" makes you more creative.

You are trying to tell me what I think which is always a mistake. I wrote what I did based on the facts at hand. Based on the statements of Woodson, Lin and other players that have stated that they are still using MDA's system in addition to the changes that Woody has implemented. As for the lack of creativity tag, I didn't create that. I merely reported what has been the consensus view of his coaching style for years. He has every opportunity now to change peoples perceptions of him and I think he will. This is a great situation he's found himself in. He's got a loaded team and he only has to hold it together for a short time and he didn't have to deal with the issues of being headcoach when we were still trying to get TD to be the PG. He's inherited a pretty good group of guys and he's getting thru to them. The teams potential is very high and so far he's getting a ton out of it.

93BUICK
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3/19/2012  7:41 PM
BasketballJones wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Why do you guys constantly respond to each other posts when you both know it will get no where. Agree to disagree. Move on. Just ignore each others post. Its not hard.

Because no discussion = no board.

Bad discussion= real bored

If you are still following the team and reading sites like this, there is nothing, short of your own demise, that is going to throw you off this train.
Woodson shuts down Kay

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