I haven't liked this abstract "league lost" x amount stuff. I wanted to know exactly what was going on with
each team.

1. Knicks                                   2. Lakers
Revenue4	        $226 mil            Revenue4	            $214 mil
Operating Income5	$64.0 mil           Operating Income5	    $33.4 mil
Player Expenses6	$86 mil             Player Expenses6	    $91 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $81 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $96 mil
Average Ticket Price    $88.00              Average Ticket Price    $113.00
3. Bulls                                    4. Celtics
Revenue4	        $169 mil            Revenue4	            $151 mil
Operating Income5	$51.3 mil           Operating Income5  	    $4.2 mil
Player Expenses6	$74 mil             Player Expenses6	    $88 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $53 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $68 mil
Average Ticket Price    $66.00              Average Ticket Price    $69.00
5. Rockets                                  6. Mavericks
Revenue4	        $153 mil            Revenue4	            $146 mil
Operating Income5	$35.9 mil           Operating Income5	    $-7.8 mil
Player Expenses6	$67 mil             Player Expenses6	    $81 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $42 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $47 mil
Average Ticket Price    $54.00              Average Ticket Price    $55.00 
7. Heat                                     8. Suns
Revenue4	        $124 mil            Revenue4	            $147 mil
Operating Income5	$-5.9 mil           Operating Income5	    $20.4 mil
Player Expenses6	$78 mil             Player Expenses6	    $69 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $41 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $50 mil
Average Ticket Price    $59.00              Average Ticket Price    $70
9. Spurs                                    10. Raptors
Revenue4	        $135 mil            Revenue4	            $138 mil
Operating Income5	$-4.7 mil           Operating Income5	    $25.3 mil
Player Expenses6	$84 mil             Player Expenses6	    $72 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $49 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $44 mil
Average Ticket Price    $51.00              Average Ticket Price    $64.00
11. Magic                                   12. Warriors
Revenue4	        $108 mil            Revenue4	            $119 mil
Operating Income5	$-23.1 mil          Operating Income5	    $14.3 mil
Player Expenses6	$86 mil             Player Expenses6	    $70 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $38 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $41 mil
Average Ticket Price    $50.00              Average Ticket Price    $38.00
13. Pistons                                 14. Blazers
Revenue4	        $147 mil            Revenue4	            $127 mil
Operating Income5	$31.8 mil           Operating Income5	    $10.7 mil
Player Expenses6	$64 mil             Player Expenses6	    $64 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $26 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $43 mil
Average Ticket Price    $45.00              Average Ticket Price    $52.00
15. Cavaliers                               16. Jazz 
Revenue4	        $161 mil            Revenue4	            $121 mil
Operating Income5	$2.6 mil            Operating Income5	    $-3.9 mil
Player Expenses6	$90 mil             Player Expenses6	    $76 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $54 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $42 mil
Average Ticket Price    $56.00              Average Ticket Price    $44.00
17. Sixers                                  18. Thunder
Revenue4	        $110 mil            Revenue4	            $118 mil
Operating Income5	$-1.2 mil           Operating Income5	    $22.6 mil
Player Expenses6	$69 mil             Player Expenses6	    $62 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $24 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $44 mil
Average Ticket Price    $43.00              Average Ticket Price    $52.00
19. Wizards                                 20. Nuggets
Revenue4	        $107 mil            Revenue4	            $113 mil
Operating Income5	$-5.2 mil           Operating Income5	    $-11.7 mil
Player Expenses6	$73 mil             Player Expenses6	    $79 mil
Gate Receipts7   	$25 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $34 mil
Average Ticket Price    $38.00              Average Ticket Price    $47.00
21. Nets                                    22. Clippers
Revenue4	        $89 mil             Revenue4	            $102 mil
Operating Income5	$-10.2 mil          Operating Income5	    $11.0 mil
Player Expenses6	$64 mil             Player Expenses6	    $62 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $21 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $24 mil
Average Ticket Price    $45.00              Average Ticket Price    $52.00
23. Hawks                                   24. Kings
Revenue4	        $105 mil            Revenue4	            $103 mil
Operating Income5	$-7.3 mil           Operating Income5	    $-9.8 mil
Player Expenses6	$70 mil             Player Expenses6	    $72 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $24 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $23 mil
Average Ticket Price    $40.00              Average Ticket Price    $
25. Bobcats                                 26. Hornets
Revenue4	        $98 mil             Revenue4	            $100 mil
Operating Income5	$-20.0 mil          Operating Income5	    $-5.9 mil
Player Expenses6	$73 mil             Player Expenses6	    $74 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $21 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $27 mil
Average Ticket Price    $33.00              Average Ticket Price    $33.00
27. Pacers                                  28. Grizzlies
Revenue4	        $95 mil             Revenue4	            $92 mil
Operating Income5	$-16.9 mil          Operating Income5	    $-2.6 mil
Player Expenses6	$71 mil             Player Expenses6	    $59 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $15 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $15 mil
Average Ticket Price    $30.00              Average Ticket Price    $25.00
29. Timberwolves                            30. Bucks
Revenue4	        $95 mil             Revenue4	            $92 mil
Operating Income5	$-6.7 mil           Operating Income5	    $-2.0 mil
Player Expenses6	$67 mil             Player Expenses6	    $69 mil
Gate Receipts7	        $14 mil             Gate Receipts7	    $20 mil
Average Ticket Price    $35.00              Average Ticket Price    $42.00 
According to this list the teams in 2010 were $144.90 in the hole on just the strict business and then 
when you add the $26 mil they had to pay the players back, that comes to $170 mil.  What I wanted to make 
clear is that many teams are much closer to being able to make a profit than the league makes it sound like 
by just stating that the league as a whole lost $300 mil this year.  
This has been my main point in this whole argument.  The owners are somewhat exaggerating the issue.  
It seems to me that the issue is that some teams are really being run poorly and/or are in cities unable to 
provide enough revenue for a team to compete against many of the other cities.  However many teams are within range of being 
able to get their affairs in order.  Real Revenue sharing would address a lot of issues.  Some teams may have to be moved!
Salaries are down and trending even lower.  This year they undershot the 57% to the tune of 160 mil.  I predict they'd be even 
lower next year.

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Where did you find this data? Did each team release their figures, and was it then independently audited?

This was from Forbes. I can't say what all the details were on how they got their figures except for what the teams reported last year. I can't imagine how else they got these figures.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/basketball-valuations-11_New-York-Knicks_328815.html

thanks... interesting data

nixluva wrote:I might add that Samuel L. Jackson has a net worth of $150 Million. All this for reading scripts in front of a camera. Entertainers often get paid a lot more than it would seem someone should for entertaining people. Don't begrudge an athlete for making money. Do you just go to any old basketball game just cuz you love the game? Do you go to just any old movie or do you go to one that will entertain you the most.

Just look at the list I posted again and notice that some teams showed a loss, but not that much of a loss that it's insurmountable. The Jazz aren't in bad shape for the future. The Sixers aren't in bad shape either. Goodness knows that the Nets have a bright future in Brooklyn. Then there are small market teams that are doing great like OKC! The Spurs have been successful in a small market. This shows that it's possible even with the players getting the salaries that they've been getting. Of course the easiest thing to do is just pay the players less, but let's not forget that they're the entertainment!!! None of this is worth a darn without the players that draw the fans.

Lol. I dont begrudge them. Movie studios aren't losing money, therefor SLJ is getting his value, whatever that may be. The NBA is losing money, therefore the players are getting more then they are worth. QED.

I appreciate your digging to find info Nix. In many cases the gate does not even cover player salary.

nixluva wrote:I might add that Samuel L. Jackson has a net worth of $150 Million. All this for reading scripts in front of a camera. Entertainers often get paid a lot more than it would seem someone should for entertaining people. Don't begrudge an athlete for making money. Do you just go to any old basketball game just cuz you love the game? Do you go to just any old movie or do you go to one that will entertain you the most.

Just look at the list I posted again and notice that some teams showed a loss, but not that much of a loss that it's insurmountable. The Jazz aren't in bad shape for the future. The Sixers aren't in bad shape either. Goodness knows that the Nets have a bright future in Brooklyn. Then there are small market teams that are doing great like OKC! The Spurs have been successful in a small market. This shows that it's possible even with the players getting the salaries that they've been getting. Of course the easiest thing to do is just pay the players less, but let's not forget that they're the entertainment!!! None of this is worth a darn without the players that draw the fans.

Entertainers, in particular movie stars are paid to bring in revenue. Oscar's are just nice rewards which can help a picture no doubt but movies are not just about the actors.

Many do participate based on the gate than just an upfront pay. Top draws can command 20mil a picture. It is seen as a solid investment.

If you want a piece of the gate you have to factor in expenses, not just the actors salary. Advertisement costs are huge for a film. Special effects, sound engineering, music, editing, catering, equipment rental, production salaries, paying for the script, travel, all figure into the costs. Without it a picture cannot be made. Without a good production an actor is left looking bad.

I'd like to see a breakdown of costs a little more. There is a #4 after "operating income" and perhaps there was a breakdown.

In any case Nix your making assumptions that simplify your position that teams can just make money if they move some teams around.

Have you considered that with the ecnonomic slowdown that teams might not be able to increase revenue at the same pace going forward and TV revenue may not be increasing as it did? Your basis is usually "its unfair for players to take a cut" and "owners are rich, so it don't matter", and "they'll make more in the future".

Well those are not givens are they?

jrodmc wrote:Nixluva, it won't matter. Post all the financials you want. Show how thoroughly stupid the owners are at money management. Show how you can move franchises around and show a profit. (As if it's that simple)

You can't explain away the simple points below without returning to lame analogies to the movie/entertainment business that are just efforts at grasping at straws, along with bizarre pipe dreams about a player's league:

It boggles my mind. These are players that are paid astronomical figures to play a sport that most of us pay for the privilege to play. And you think their right to these laughable wages supersedes the right of the league to turn a profit? I get that you think that you're fighting the good fight nixluva, but you're really not. You're buying into the idea that these players actually deserve these wages, which they don't. Market forces, dictated by the interest of the fans dictates their value. If the league is losing money, then by definition, they are getting above market value. Why you think otherwise is beyond me.

nixluva wrote:I might add that Samuel L. Jackson has a net worth of $150 Million. All this for reading scripts in front of a camera. Entertainers often get paid a lot more than it would seem someone should for entertaining people. Don't begrudge an athlete for making money. Do you just go to any old basketball game just cuz you love the game? Do you go to just any old movie or do you go to one that will entertain you the most.

Just look at the list I posted again and notice that some teams showed a loss, but not that much of a loss that it's insurmountable. The Jazz aren't in bad shape for the future. The Sixers aren't in bad shape either. Goodness knows that the Nets have a bright future in Brooklyn. Then there are small market teams that are doing great like OKC! The Spurs have been successful in a small market. This shows that it's possible even with the players getting the salaries that they've been getting. Of course the easiest thing to do is just pay the players less, but let's not forget that they're the entertainment!!! None of this is worth a darn without the players that draw the fans.

the net worth thing to me is a bit overblown... I would love to see how much of that stuff can be liquidated to real cash, and quick. anyway, one thing about Samuel.. if he doesn't work, he doesn't get paid... NBA players have that luxury... sign a contract, break your leg, you still get paid.. all for running around in your shorts....