Jermaine O'Neal is concerned about the impact of how a system in which the middle class of players is eliminated would impact the play on the court.

"If it's about small-market teams not profiting, if the owners are really using that as a bargaining tool, if you're really concerned about it, then why aren't you profit-sharing like the other leagues are doing?" O'Neal asked.

"So do we accept a deal that totally butchers our game? Because what they don't understand, if you take out mid-tier deals and say, 'Fend for bare minimum at the bottom,' they'll be individualizing our game so severely."

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215580/Jermaine_ONeal_Eliminating_NBAs_Middle_Class_Would_Severely_Individualize_Game#ixzz1XxufM5Hf

Maggette - "We just took eight steps back," he said.

"Someone needs to compromise," Maggette said. "The owners have to compromise.

"We need to have revenue sharing with the teams that are not making money. That's important. I play[ed] for one of the teams that's one of the worst [in revenues], Milwaukee. We've got to have [sharing] with guys like the Lakers and the big-name teams that's making tons and tons of money. Donald Sterling's another guy that makes money even if he loses. We need to figure out a way to get that going."

Baseball profit sharing keeps the economics balanced but its pretty apparent KC, Pittsburgh, and others are not doing too well.

Hockey can't get on TV anymore but the dynasties are not there anymore.

Knicks squandered years wasting money and paying taxes with little result, while Small market San Antonio kicks some serious ass.

Im thinking the league might be more interesting with a hard cap.

I'd like to see more investment in more players in the Dleague. I'd like to see teams be able to buy out bad contracts and move on. And as much as I'd like to see all the best players in NY, Free agents like Shaq and Lebron really do screw a team when they leave. Im glad Cleveland has been lucky and is rebuilding quickly.

nixluva wrote:It's funny how some get down on players making what they think is a lot of money. No one says anything about Movie stars or Tennis players or Golfers!!! Soon as you talk about NBA players who on the whole have VERY short careers all of a sudden they're in an unenviable position. Let's not forget that most of these owners have far more areas in which to make revenue and it's only a small % of NBA players that are making really big money for a long period of time. Not to mention that athletes burnout their bodies and suffer physical problems over the remainder of their lives. In which way do owners undergo such circumstances. Being an athlete is in some ways like being a gladiator. They often don't live as long or have the quality of life you think over the later parts of their lives. It's not all a bed of roses. Don't confuse the Jordans and Lebrons with the average NBA player.

That said, the owners have mostly been negotiating against themselves in terms of trying to make things more fair. It's not the players that have been the source of the problems. The owners want expansion even when contraction would make more sense. The owners are the ones stabbing each other in the back to take great players from each other. The owners are the ones who haven't found a way to revenue share. etc.

Who is paying, is ordering the music.
The game needs to be organized and financed to be played.
It is not playground, its pro sport.
To make money – money must be invested first.
Players are just workers. Some very good workers but without NBA they are nobody.

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:It's funny how some get down on players making what they think is a lot of money. No one says anything about Movie stars or Tennis players or Golfers!!! Soon as you talk about NBA players who on the whole have VERY short careers all of a sudden they're in an unenviable position. Let's not forget that most of these owners have far more areas in which to make revenue and it's only a small % of NBA players that are making really big money for a long period of time. Not to mention that athletes burnout their bodies and suffer physical problems over the remainder of their lives. In which way do owners undergo such circumstances. Being an athlete is in some ways like being a gladiator. They often don't live as long or have the quality of life you think over the later parts of their lives. It's not all a bed of roses. Don't confuse the Jordans and Lebrons with the average NBA player.

That said, the owners have mostly been negotiating against themselves in terms of trying to make things more fair. It's not the players that have been the source of the problems. The owners want expansion even when contraction would make more sense. The owners are the ones stabbing each other in the back to take great players from each other. The owners are the ones who haven't found a way to revenue share. etc.

Who is paying, is ordering the music.
The game needs to be organized and financed to be played.
It is not playground, its pro sport.
To make money – money must be invested first.
Players are just workers. Some very good workers but without NBA they are nobody.

Totally disagree!!!

The New York Renaissance, also known as the Renaissance Big Five and as the Rens, was an all-black professional basketball team established February 13, 1923, by Robert "Bob" Douglas in agreement with the Renaissance Casino and Ballroom.[1] The Casino and Ballroom at 138th Street and Seventh Avenue in Harlem was an entertainment complex including a ballroom that served as the Big Five's home court. Following each game, a dance took place. The success of the Rens shifted the focus of black basketball from amateur teams to professional teams. Initially, the Rens played mostly in Harlem, but by the end of the 1920s, as attendance began to dwindle, the team could be found more often playing on the road, barnstorming across the country out of necessity.

The Rens were one of the dominant basketball teams of the 1920s and 1930s. The team played its first game on November 3, 1923. That night the Rens played a team of white players; interracial games featured regularly on their schedule, drawing the largest crowds.[2] [3] In its first years, the team strove to beat the Original Celtics, the dominant white team of the time, and claim the title of world champions: in their fifth encounter, the Rens did so for the first time, on December 20, 1925.[4] During the 1932-33 regular season, the Rens compiled a record of 120-8 (six of those losses came at the hands of the Celtics, who the Rens did beat eight times). [5]During that season, the Rens won 88 consecutive games, a mark that has never been matched by a professional basketball team. In 1939, the Rens won the first professional basketball championship, when they beat the Oshkosh All-Stars, a white team, 34-25, in the World Professional Basketball Tournament in Chicago.

The team compiled a 2588-539 record over its history. Some of the longest-serving and best-known early Rens were Clarence "Fats" Jenkins, Pappy Ricks, Eyre Saitch, Charles "Tarzan" Cooper, Bill Yancey, and "Wee" Willie Smith. In 1936 the Renaissance became the first top-level team to sign a four-year African-American college star, David "Big Dave" DeJernett of Indiana Central.

The Rens disbanded in 1949 after completing the 1948/49 season of the racially integrated National Basketball League as the Dayton Rens based in Dayton, Ohio. That was also the final season for the NBL, which merged with the all-white Basketball Association of America to form the also all-white National Basketball Association.

There is no clear consensus as to the very beginnings of the Globetrotters. The official history[1] contains several details which seem contradictory, such as the team being organized in 1926 in the Savoy Ballroom, which opened in 1927.[2] What is clear is that the genesis of the Globetrotters took place in the South Side of Chicago, Illinois in the 1920s, where all the original players grew up. Most of the players also attended Wendell Phillips High School. When the Savoy Ballroom opened in November 1927, one of the premier attractions was the Savoy Big Five, a basketball team that played exhibitions before dances. Hinckley, Illinois was home to the first Harlem Globetrotters game on January 7, 1927.[3] In 1928, several players left the team in a dispute over bringing back other players who had left the team. That fall, several players led by Tommy Brookins formed a team called the "Globe Trotters" which would tour Southern Illinois that spring. Abe Saperstein became involved with the team, though to exactly what extent is unclear. In any event, by 1929 Saperstein was touring Illinois and Iowa with his basketball team, called the "New York Harlem Globe Trotters". Saperstein decided to pick Harlem as their home city since Harlem was considered the center of African-American culture at the time, and an out-of-town team name would give the team more of a mystique.[4] After four decades of existence, the Globetrotters played their first "home" game in Harlem in 1968.
Old logo

One of the first star players of those early Globe Trotters (the name would be merged into one word later on) was Albert "Runt" Pullins, an adept dribbler and shooter. Soon he would be joined by 6 ft 3 in Inman Jackson, who played center and had a flair for showboating.[5] They would originate the two roles that would stay with the 'trotters for decades, the showman and the dribbler.[6]

The Globetrotters were initially a serious competitive team, and despite a flair for entertainment, they would only clown for the audience after establishing a safe lead in the game. In 1939, they accepted an invitation to participate in the World Professional Basketball Tournament, where they met the New York Rens in the semi-finals in the first big clash of the two greatest all-black professional basketball teams. The Rens defeated the Globetrotters and went on to win the Tournament, but in 1940 the Globetrotters avenged their loss by defeating the Rens in the quarterfinals and advancing to the championship game, where they beat the Chicago Bruins in overtime by a score of 37–36.[citat

This is before the NBA and is proof that there was a market for BB and that an independent team could actually make money separate from the NBA. Rich businessmen jumped on the bandwagon smelling money and not the other way around.

Andrew wrote:

nixluva wrote: No one says anything about Movie stars or Tennis players or Golfers!!!

Funny that you mentioned tennis players and golfers. 2 sports where your non sponsorship income is based directly on how you perform and is not guaranteed. Totally different situations.

Actually that's a good point! It's not the players fault that the idea of a league which benefits more than just the players, but also OWNERS, which you don't have in Tennis and Golf. Tennis players and Golfers are independent so to speak. The players used to be able to operate and make money independent of a League with rules contrary to those of the free market. I posted the history of pre NBA basketball, to show that outside of a league the talent of these players already had been proven to have a monetary value and they earned money. It's not that the NBA came 1st and players are only lucky to be employed by the owners in this league. The PLAYERS created the market 1st and then businessmen with money caught on and found a way to also make money off the talents of the players. Perhaps going back to Tournaments and Barnstorming is what the players should do if the owners can't agree to a revenue sharing plan.

This letter from Fisher was also pretty interesting:

Derek Fisher sent the following letter to his fellow, criticizing agents who are attempting to decertify the union.

To Each & Every Player,

After the latest round of meetings, I thought it would be best to update you personally as to where the leadership of the National Basketball Players Association stands, where the negotiations stand where we are headed and the reasons why.

Without a doubt, someone will be leaking this. I know it. The moment you read this you will know it. So, I say all with the fullest transparency.

I was elected as your President. By you. For you. I take great pride and am honored to serve the over 400 members of our association. I and our Executive Committee take this job and this role seriously and will not agree to an unfair deal on behalf of you and our players. Period.

I'm not looking out just for the marquee guy, I'm looking out for the guy that dreams of being a professional basketball player and gets a minimum deal. I'm not just trying to protect the guy on a team in a huge market. I'm protecting the player that is in a small market with incredibly loyal fans.

I've made it clear, I want to play. You have each made it clear, you want to play. The fans have been unwavering, they want their basketball. The thousand of employees that work in the arenas, the ticket offices, the concession stands, they want a season. We all want to go back to work.

The league and the team owners have locked us out. This was not our choice. Our employers decided to stop allowing us to do our jobs.

My job since July 1st is to find a solution. To find an outcome that protects each of you and your livelihoods and continues to allow us to play the game we love so much and the fans love supporting.

Since before the lockout began, I have spent hours upon hours, days, months, years, working on preparing you, the fans and the media about the possibilities. Now as the lockout has set in, reality of the situation is here.

The most recent meetings in New York were effective. What you have been told by your agents, representatives and the media is probably speculative and inaccurate.

What actually happened in those meetings was discussion, brainstorming and a sharing of options by both sides. The turning point this past Tuesday was not a disagreement between the players and the owners. It was actually a fundamental divide between the owners internally. They could not agree with each other on specific points of the deal and therefore it caused conflict within the league and its owners.

So it is our hope that today, Thursday, at the owners meeting in Dallas that they work out their differences, come up with a revenue sharing plan that will protect their teams and are then ready to come together and sign off on the agreement we as a smaller group deemed reasonable.

Decertification seems to be a hot button issue today in the media. So I'd like to address it. I've read yesterday's stories and find the position of these agents interesting. I have made myself available to each and every agent. But not once have I heard from them. If they are so concerned about the direction of the union, then why have they not contacted me? Each and every one of them mentioned has been in meetings with me. I've answered their questions, I've been told they support you, their players and our Players Association. So if there is a genuine concern, a suggestion, a question, call me. Email me. Text me. I'm working tirelessly each and every day on behalf of the over 400 players that they represent. Working for nothing but the best interests of THEIR guys. I don't make a commission, I don't make a salary for serving as President. I have NO ulterior motives. None.

It is because they have not come to me once that I question their motives.

I work every day on these negotiations. I work so that each player from Blake Griffin to Tyler Hansbrough, Pau Gasol to De'Andre Jordan, Dwight Howard to Jrue Holiday, Taj Gibson to Danny Granger, Steve Nash to Luke Babbit and every single player get a fair and reasonable deal. Not just for this year, not just for next year but for years to come. So that the league that WE the players largely helped build, continues to grow and thrive.

So to address the agents that have decided to say their piece yesterday, I don't mind. Perhaps they are trying to make news. Perhaps they just want to show you, their clients, they are working hard. But what would be appreciated by the 400+ players would be the support of our agents and constructive ideas, suggestions and solutions that are in our best interests. Not the push for a drastic move that leaves their players without a union, without pensions, without health care. We just aren't there.

I will remain committed to finding resolution to this because I know how important this is. I ask you to remain united with me and your over 400 allies, friends, brothers and colleagues. We are a powerful group if we remain united and focused on the task at hand.

I urge every single one of you to call me, text me, email me with anything. An idea, a suggestion, a concern, a question. I represent you. I work for you.

So to each player, each fan, each agent, each media member who ends up reading this...I stand behind this message. It comes from me, a 15 year veteran of basketball, the game I dreamt of playing as a kid, the game I love so much. I'm a teammate, I'm a father, I'm a son, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, but right now, the role I must work so hard to honor is the one as PA President. And I ask each of you to stand with me, stand by me and urge the league and the owners to come together and allow the game of basketball to continue to grow and thrive. We're ready.

Sincerely,

Derek

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215600/Fisher_Sends_Letter_To_Fellow_Players#ixzz1Y45uP6Ki

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Andrew wrote:

nixluva wrote: No one says anything about Movie stars or Tennis players or Golfers!!!

Funny that you mentioned tennis players and golfers. 2 sports where your non sponsorship income is based directly on how you perform and is not guaranteed. Totally different situations.

Perhaps going back to Tournaments and Barnstorming is what the players should do if the owners can't agree to a revenue sharing plan.

Yes, I'd love to see 400 guys and their money grubbing agents try to organize a league. What's the percentage of NBA players that are bankrupt within years of retirement? And these geniuses are going to suddenly revert to the 1920's mentality of setting up their own venues and managing everything that goes along with it? And things are a just a bit more complicated 90 years later, don't you think? Liabilities and insurance and damages and security and crowd control and all that good stuff. So who do the players, the fair portion of whom find it hard to run their own lives, going to turn to? Why, their agents of course! Lawyers/businessmen whose only motivation in life is to drain as much as possible in as short a time as possible out of whoever's on the other side of table. Great. Can't wait to see that happen.

1st of all your tone seems a bit pessimistic and dark. I can assure you that there are more than enough bright, intelligent and business minded players out there to organize some BB events. Not to mention the entire battery of sponsors in related sports products. Nike, Gatorade, Under Armor etc. These kinds of companies could easily back sporting events and DO in other sports like Tennis and Golf. I think it's entirely possible to form a new paradigm for the sport even in this modern market. BB has a huge connection with the everyday fan, which is why there are open tournaments and Streetball leagues. Amazingly the Harlem Globetrotters STILL EXIST!!! They are one of the teams that started this whole modern BB craze.

No one is saying that it would be better than the NBA, but it's an option and it actually was the natural state of things in professional BB before the NBA came along.

nixluva wrote:

Andrew wrote:

nixluva wrote: No one says anything about Movie stars or Tennis players or Golfers!!!

Funny that you mentioned tennis players and golfers. 2 sports where your non sponsorship income is based directly on how you perform and is not guaranteed. Totally different situations.

Actually that's a good point! It's not the players fault that the idea of a league which benefits more than just the players, but also OWNERS, which you don't have in Tennis and Golf. Tennis players and Golfers are independent so to speak. The players used to be able to operate and make money independent of a League with rules contrary to those of the free market. I posted the history of pre NBA basketball, to show that outside of a league the talent of these players already had been proven to have a monetary value and they earned money. It's not that the NBA came 1st and players are only lucky to be employed by the owners in this league. The PLAYERS created the market 1st and then businessmen with money caught on and found a way to also make money off the talents of the players. Perhaps going back to Tournaments and Barnstorming is what the players should do if the owners can't agree to a revenue sharing plan.

This letter from Fisher was also pretty interesting:

Derek Fisher sent the following letter to his fellow, criticizing agents who are attempting to decertify the union.

To Each & Every Player,

After the latest round of meetings, I thought it would be best to update you personally as to where the leadership of the National Basketball Players Association stands, where the negotiations stand where we are headed and the reasons why.

Without a doubt, someone will be leaking this. I know it. The moment you read this you will know it. So, I say all with the fullest transparency.

I was elected as your President. By you. For you. I take great pride and am honored to serve the over 400 members of our association. I and our Executive Committee take this job and this role seriously and will not agree to an unfair deal on behalf of you and our players. Period.

I'm not looking out just for the marquee guy, I'm looking out for the guy that dreams of being a professional basketball player and gets a minimum deal. I'm not just trying to protect the guy on a team in a huge market. I'm protecting the player that is in a small market with incredibly loyal fans.

I've made it clear, I want to play. You have each made it clear, you want to play. The fans have been unwavering, they want their basketball. The thousand of employees that work in the arenas, the ticket offices, the concession stands, they want a season. We all want to go back to work.

The league and the team owners have locked us out. This was not our choice. Our employers decided to stop allowing us to do our jobs.

My job since July 1st is to find a solution. To find an outcome that protects each of you and your livelihoods and continues to allow us to play the game we love so much and the fans love supporting.

Since before the lockout began, I have spent hours upon hours, days, months, years, working on preparing you, the fans and the media about the possibilities. Now as the lockout has set in, reality of the situation is here.

The most recent meetings in New York were effective. What you have been told by your agents, representatives and the media is probably speculative and inaccurate.

What actually happened in those meetings was discussion, brainstorming and a sharing of options by both sides. The turning point this past Tuesday was not a disagreement between the players and the owners. It was actually a fundamental divide between the owners internally. They could not agree with each other on specific points of the deal and therefore it caused conflict within the league and its owners.

So it is our hope that today, Thursday, at the owners meeting in Dallas that they work out their differences, come up with a revenue sharing plan that will protect their teams and are then ready to come together and sign off on the agreement we as a smaller group deemed reasonable.

Decertification seems to be a hot button issue today in the media. So I'd like to address it. I've read yesterday's stories and find the position of these agents interesting. I have made myself available to each and every agent. But not once have I heard from them. If they are so concerned about the direction of the union, then why have they not contacted me? Each and every one of them mentioned has been in meetings with me. I've answered their questions, I've been told they support you, their players and our Players Association. So if there is a genuine concern, a suggestion, a question, call me. Email me. Text me. I'm working tirelessly each and every day on behalf of the over 400 players that they represent. Working for nothing but the best interests of THEIR guys. I don't make a commission, I don't make a salary for serving as President. I have NO ulterior motives. None.

It is because they have not come to me once that I question their motives.

I work every day on these negotiations. I work so that each player from Blake Griffin to Tyler Hansbrough, Pau Gasol to De'Andre Jordan, Dwight Howard to Jrue Holiday, Taj Gibson to Danny Granger, Steve Nash to Luke Babbit and every single player get a fair and reasonable deal. Not just for this year, not just for next year but for years to come. So that the league that WE the players largely helped build, continues to grow and thrive.

So to address the agents that have decided to say their piece yesterday, I don't mind. Perhaps they are trying to make news. Perhaps they just want to show you, their clients, they are working hard. But what would be appreciated by the 400+ players would be the support of our agents and constructive ideas, suggestions and solutions that are in our best interests. Not the push for a drastic move that leaves their players without a union, without pensions, without health care. We just aren't there.

I will remain committed to finding resolution to this because I know how important this is. I ask you to remain united with me and your over 400 allies, friends, brothers and colleagues. We are a powerful group if we remain united and focused on the task at hand.

I urge every single one of you to call me, text me, email me with anything. An idea, a suggestion, a concern, a question. I represent you. I work for you.

So to each player, each fan, each agent, each media member who ends up reading this...I stand behind this message. It comes from me, a 15 year veteran of basketball, the game I dreamt of playing as a kid, the game I love so much. I'm a teammate, I'm a father, I'm a son, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, but right now, the role I must work so hard to honor is the one as PA President. And I ask each of you to stand with me, stand by me and urge the league and the owners to come together and allow the game of basketball to continue to grow and thrive. We're ready.

Sincerely,

Derek

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215600/Fisher_Sends_Letter_To_Fellow_Players#ixzz1Y45uP6Ki

alanhahn Alan Hahn
Brilliant. RT @sam_amick: Decoding Fisher's letter to players, the 10 players named are represented by 5 agents pushing for decertification.

Nalod wrote:Tennis and Golf players have earn a spot on the tour and to events, and have to pay their own way, and pay for hotel.

nixluva wrote:

Nalod wrote:Tennis and Golf players have earn a spot on the tour and to events, and have to pay their own way, and pay for hotel.

The same way the early pre NBA players got together and formed their own teams and made their own deals to perform in front of crowds and make money. It's not like the early Ball Clubs waited for a league to give them a job. They paid their own way and made their own money.

Globtrotters and the Rens were not owned by the players.

The Tennis and Golf tournaments are organized by a central association that accepts sponserships and TV contracts and sets the Tournament winning amounts based on revenue.

NBA sets a cap based on revenue.

I like the way they do it in the NFL. Big upfront bonus and a % guaranteed. Perhaps if a player outperforms his contract by some prearranged measure he can get a raise. Like wise if he sucks, he can get cut.

Owners are very very rich. Most players are not. Some mismanage their money.

The owners will win. The big stars will be ok, but they are not forming their own league or going to China.

Nalod wrote:Those two have made a ton of money.

Baseball profit sharing keeps the economics balanced but its pretty apparent KC, Pittsburgh, and others are not doing too well.

Hockey can't get on TV anymore but the dynasties are not there anymore.

Knicks squandered years wasting money and paying taxes with little result, while Small market San Antonio kicks some serious ass.

Im thinking the league might be more interesting with a hard cap.

I'd like to see more investment in more players in the Dleague. I'd like to see teams be able to buy out bad contracts and move on. And as much as I'd like to see all the best players in NY, Free agents like Shaq and Lebron really do screw a team when they leave. Im glad Cleveland has been lucky and is rebuilding quickly.

I agree with this sentiment. I would like to see a hard cap. I like the NFL model.