[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Charlie Rosen Article: Grading the coaches
Author Thread
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
7/25/2011  10:14 PM
HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Charley Rosen
Grading the coachesJuly 25, 2011 @ 5:34 pm by Charley Rosen · Filed under Avery Johnson, Byron Scott, David Kahn, Doc Rivers, Dwane Casey, Erik Spoelstra, Frank Vogel, George Karl, Kevin McHale, Larry Drew, Lawrence Frank, Lionel Hollins, Mark Jackson, Mike Brown, Monty Williams, Paul Silas, Rick Carlisle, Scott Skiles, Vinny del Negro

While the NBA season remains in a coma, the league’s coaches are still alive and well. But how good are these civilians who occupy the command seats?

It says here that even the worst of them are better than the best college coaches for a variety of reasons. The real question is this: How do NBA coaches compare to each other?

Here’s how:

Mark Jackson (Golden State): Has the playing experience, the blarney, and the arrogance to succeed. Grade: Incomplete.

Frank Vogel (Indiana): Did a terrific job in rousing the mediocre Pacers in the stretch run. But energizing a team for a whole season is a different task. Grade: Incomplete.

Mike D’Antoni (New York): A one-trick pony whom I call “Antoni” because his D is silent. What will happen when the sticky fingers of Melo make D’Antoni’s run-amok offense spin its wheels? Not only is he the wrong coach for the wrong team, but Antoni’s philosophy is designed to please fans but not to win championships. The most overrated coach in the NBA. Grade: D plus.

Erik Spoelstra (Miami): Showed minimal imagination, minimal flexibility, and minimal control of LeBron. But does work hard and is a nice guy. Grade: D plus.

Alvin Gentry (Phoenix): The perfect match of nondescript team with nondescript coach. Grade: Gentleman’s C.

Flip Saunders (Washington): His multi-faceted offensive strategies are too complicated for today’s dumbed-down players. Lacks the charisma to be head coach. Would be best utilized as an assistant in charge of Xs. Grade: C minus.

Stan Van Gundy (Orlando): Talks too much, lacks charisma, and fails to make adequate adjustments. Otherwise he’s A-OK. Grade: C minus.

Mike Brown (LA Lakers): Was AWOL in too many timeout huddles in Cleveland, and also let LeBron walk all over him. No way he can handle Kobe. Grade: C minus.

Vinny Del Negro (LA Clippers): Needs to control his ego and his intensity, but has the requisite grit and smarts to be successful. Grade: C minus.

Kevin McHale (Houston): Is frequently intolerant of, and impatient with mistakes. Everyone’s, that is, but his own. Was unable to instill a winning attitude in his last go-round with the woeful Timberwolves. Can he maintain his own interest if Houston has a slow start? Grade: C minus.

Tyrone Corbin (Utah): A protégé of Jerry Sloan’s, but micro-managing the same old tired offense is n exercise in futility. Still, being in charge from the get-go just might encourage Corbin to be more of his own man. Grade: C.

Scott Brooks (Oklahoma City): Unimaginative offense and imaginary defense can only go so far. Not nearly far enough to match the talent at his disposal. Grade: C plus.

Avery Johnson (New Jersey): Has also toned down his act, but still managed to get his lackluster team to play all-out all of the time. But can he do the job under real pressure? Grade: C plus.

George Karl (Denver): Can be intimidated by star-quality players, so will operate more comfortably with Carmelo Anthony elsewhere. Preaches free-form offense, gimmick defense, and full-time effort. His teams tend to underachieve. Grade: C plus.

Dwane Casey (Toronto): A quality guy and underrated coach. Too bad the Raptors are clawless. Grade: B minus.

Paul Westphal (Sacramento): A good coach wasting his talents with a bad team. Grade: B minus.

Doug Collins (Philadelphia): Kept his ego and his mouth in check and did a great job with an inferior team. Has widened the scope of his game plan since his days in Detroit and Chicago. Grade: B minus.

Byron Scott (Cleveland): His overbearing attitude is a negative. His expertise and ability to keep his inept group of players competitive are positives. Grade: B minus.

Paul Silas (Charlotte): Dignity, honesty, experience and a calm demeanor are his main qualifications. Gets the most out of veteran players, but needs help in Xs and Os from his assistants. Grade: B minus.

Larry Drew (Atlanta): Did a good job coaching a bunch of mostly uncoachable players. If/when the roster is purged of knuckleheads, it remains to be seen if he can take his abilities and his team to the next level. Grade: B minus.

Scott Skiles (Milwaukee): Has toned down his over-the-top intensity and pushed his guys into overachieving. Grade: B.

Lionel Hollins (Memphis): Maximized the abilities of his players, most of whom had severe limitations. Could eventually join the ranks of the A-rated coaches. Grade: B.

Monty Williams (New Orleans): Except for the marvelous Chris Paul, and with David West on the shelf, the Hornets were a mediocre team. But Williams quietly led them into the playoffs. Grade: B.

Lawrence Frank (Detroit): Nobody works harder or is better prepared. Despite his mild exterior, can be a martinet behind closed doors. Grade: B.

Tom Thibodeau (Chicago): Defensive mastermind, but lack of dependendable scorers hamstrings his total game plan. Give him time and he’ll be another Ace. Grade: B plus.

Doc Rivers (Boston): Took his aging team as far as it could have gone. What happens now that Father Time has caught Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen from behind? This season will be the truest test of Doc’s chops. Grade: B plus.

Nate McMillan (Portland): Always gets the most out of the least. Grade: A

Rick Carlisle (Dallas): His toughness is contagious, his preparation is immaculate and he’s not afraid to take chances. Grade: A.

Gregg Popovich (San Antonio): With Phil Jackson out of the picture, Pop is the best in the business. Demands discipline, hustle, and unselfishness, and always speaks his mind. Grade: A plus.

Unknown (Minnesota): The yet-to-be-named sacrificial victim will be tasked with the thankless job of making Ricky Rubio a decent NBA point guard. Grade: Doomed to the read flag.

Share:

Read more: http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/rosen/2011/07/25/grading-the-coaches/#ixzz1TBYJTPDU

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
AUTOADVERT
K22
Posts: 25143
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/18/2006
Member: #1182
USA
7/26/2011  12:00 AM
and Phil Jackson have some heat with each other in the past. That's why.
-- the preceding post was brought to you by the letter K and the number 22.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
7/26/2011  2:50 AM
MDA deserves more respect than this. To give him a D as a coach shows way too much bias for me. He calls him Antoni as many people do and yet when Mike was winning he never had a poor defensive team and he was beating the BEST teams in the league out West. The 2 years he got to the WCF's his team was no less than top 4 in the league. You get to the Conference finals and that means your team was better than all but 1 team in your Conference. How can you be a bad coach in that case. If he was bad what did that make all the coaches he beat? So I guess it was all the roster and he had no part in why his teams won. It was only his system and style of play that his teams implemented.

He actually had a very impactful effect on other teams since there are so few C's in the league now, his style has been adopted by other coaches. Even Popovich used his offensive scheme as he saw his team declining. It worked too in that it boosted the teams effectiveness and made them better than they probably should've been. People assume that his teams won cuz of the talent and fail to realize that he got his teams further than they should've based on such a lack of size. Even if you have a big it can be successful to create room for your bigman to operate as the Magic have seen. Coach K at Duke uses his principles as well as the Olympic team. People can hate all they want, but very few coaches have been able to have such an impact on the game in recent years. Think about it. This guy hasn't been coaching stacked teams like Phil Jax. Yet he was able to have more teams using his system than any other in recent years.

Lastly when this team is kicking teams teeth in and winning games what will Rosen have to say then? My guess is nothing like he did when Mike took one of the smallest teams ever into the WCF. When STAT was out and he had KT and Diaw as his centers. Gee how the hell did he get his team to the WCF's with no C out in the tough Western Conf.? He didn't just sneak in or win against weak teams in the Eastern conference. I'm still waiting for some naysayer to explain that one to me!!!!

nykshaknbake
Posts: 22247
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/15/2003
Member: #492
7/26/2011  8:04 AM
Ahh the glory days of MDA....it was defeintly his best time though he underachieved with not 1 not 2 but 3 all star talents. Maybe if he had a 4th he would have gotten to the finals. He was a TIm Duncan away from the finals! Just like as you say if only we had Dwight Howard we would be great. No other teams are on the bubble and could make that claim right?

It's ok nixluva MDA has anotrher excuse for this or the next season. He ran Stat's back into the ground playing huge minutes and guarding centers. So next season it'll be like it's not fair to judge MDA if Stat is out. Your boy is safe relax. Guys like this can write all they want and give Ds. There is no meaningful D when it comes to D'ANtoni.

It's laughable to suggest that great coaches like Pop stole from MDA. I don't think MDA invented floor spacing. But he did invent shooting an inoordinate amount of 3s at all costs which the Spurs clearly do not and never did.

nixluva wrote:MDA deserves more respect than this. To give him a D as a coach shows way too much bias for me. He calls him Antoni as many people do and yet when Mike was winning he never had a poor defensive team and he was beating the BEST teams in the league out West. The 2 years he got to the WCF's his team was no less than top 4 in the league. You get to the Conference finals and that means your team was better than all but 1 team in your Conference. How can you be a bad coach in that case. If he was bad what did that make all the coaches he beat? So I guess it was all the roster and he had no part in why his teams won. It was only his system and style of play that his teams implemented.

He actually had a very impactful effect on other teams since there are so few C's in the league now, his style has been adopted by other coaches. Even Popovich used his offensive scheme as he saw his team declining. It worked too in that it boosted the teams effectiveness and made them better than they probably should've been. People assume that his teams won cuz of the talent and fail to realize that he got his teams further than they should've based on such a lack of size. Even if you have a big it can be successful to create room for your bigman to operate as the Magic have seen. Coach K at Duke uses his principles as well as the Olympic team. People can hate all they want, but very few coaches have been able to have such an impact on the game in recent years. Think about it. This guy hasn't been coaching stacked teams like Phil Jax. Yet he was able to have more teams using his system than any other in recent years.

Lastly when this team is kicking teams teeth in and winning games what will Rosen have to say then? My guess is nothing like he did when Mike took one of the smallest teams ever into the WCF. When STAT was out and he had KT and Diaw as his centers. Gee how the hell did he get his team to the WCF's with no C out in the tough Western Conf.? He didn't just sneak in or win against weak teams in the Eastern conference. I'm still waiting for some naysayer to explain that one to me!!!!

franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
7/26/2011  8:15 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:Ahh the glory days of MDA....it was defeintly his best time though he underachieved with not 1 not 2 but 3 all star talents. Maybe if he had a 4th he would have gotten to the finals. He was a TIm Duncan away from the finals! Just like as you say if only we had Dwight Howard we would be great. No other teams are on the bubble and could make that claim right?

It's ok nixluva MDA has anotrher excuse for this or the next season. He ran Stat's back into the ground playing huge minutes and guarding centers. So next season it'll be like it's not fair to judge MDA if Stat is out. Your boy is safe relax. Guys like this can write all they want and give Ds. There is no meaningful D when it comes to D'ANtoni.

It's laughable to suggest that great coaches like Pop stole from MDA. I don't think MDA invented floor spacing. But he did invent shooting an inoordinate amount of 3s at all costs which the Spurs clearly do not and never did.

nixluva wrote:MDA deserves more respect than this. To give him a D as a coach shows way too much bias for me. He calls him Antoni as many people do and yet when Mike was winning he never had a poor defensive team and he was beating the BEST teams in the league out West. The 2 years he got to the WCF's his team was no less than top 4 in the league. You get to the Conference finals and that means your team was better than all but 1 team in your Conference. How can you be a bad coach in that case. If he was bad what did that make all the coaches he beat? So I guess it was all the roster and he had no part in why his teams won. It was only his system and style of play that his teams implemented.

He actually had a very impactful effect on other teams since there are so few C's in the league now, his style has been adopted by other coaches. Even Popovich used his offensive scheme as he saw his team declining. It worked too in that it boosted the teams effectiveness and made them better than they probably should've been. People assume that his teams won cuz of the talent and fail to realize that he got his teams further than they should've based on such a lack of size. Even if you have a big it can be successful to create room for your bigman to operate as the Magic have seen. Coach K at Duke uses his principles as well as the Olympic team. People can hate all they want, but very few coaches have been able to have such an impact on the game in recent years. Think about it. This guy hasn't been coaching stacked teams like Phil Jax. Yet he was able to have more teams using his system than any other in recent years.

Lastly when this team is kicking teams teeth in and winning games what will Rosen have to say then? My guess is nothing like he did when Mike took one of the smallest teams ever into the WCF. When STAT was out and he had KT and Diaw as his centers. Gee how the hell did he get his team to the WCF's with no C out in the tough Western Conf.? He didn't just sneak in or win against weak teams in the Eastern conference. I'm still waiting for some naysayer to explain that one to me!!!!

That is a classic line!

Nalod
Posts: 71155
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
7/26/2011  8:52 AM

MDA is the perfect coach for this team.

Does anyone really think we have a culture or even are trying to build a culture of winning with our management?

Any effort toward this walked out the door when Jimmy blew his wad on Melo and Donnie left.

Stone cold reality is the President left because his pursuit was not consistent with the owners.

I don't believe this team has ever really been serious about winning. The 90's happened because we won the lotto. Does not mean you can't come close and not to say lightening can happen and make an improbable run.

Stars can make it happen, but more assured is fans will watch and money will be made.

So post all the negative against MDA but know he leaves when fans start to get antsy and voice the displeasure with the wallet.

Crap rating to even grade new coaches. Crap article.

GoNyGoNyGo
Posts: 23559
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/29/2003
Member: #411
USA
7/26/2011  9:54 AM
Rosen is a bitter old man who never got his shot in the NBA. He is also a dead head buddy of Phil Jackson.
TheGame
Posts: 26632
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/15/2006
Member: #1154
USA
7/26/2011  10:05 AM
I agree. I think MDA is the wrong coach for this team, and unless Melo learns that he needs to pass more, this offense is going to bog down. With a team like this, with no true defensive stalwarts, it is even more important that you coach defense and set a defensive game plan. MDA just does not give defense the attention it deserves. Melo and AMare can be fairly effective half-court players. There really are no burners on this team. The knicks need to find a defensive center and then turn this team into a medium paced, half-court team that focuses on forcing teams to make jumpers and execute in the half-court.
Trust the Process
martin
Posts: 76214
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/26/2011  10:42 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:Ahh the glory days of MDA....it was defeintly his best time though he underachieved with not 1 not 2 but 3 all star talents. Maybe if he had a 4th he would have gotten to the finals. He was a TIm Duncan away from the finals! Just like as you say if only we had Dwight Howard we would be great. No other teams are on the bubble and could make that claim right?

It's ok nixluva MDA has anotrher excuse for this or the next season. He ran Stat's back into the ground playing huge minutes and guarding centers. So next season it'll be like it's not fair to judge MDA if Stat is out. Your boy is safe relax. Guys like this can write all they want and give Ds. There is no meaningful D when it comes to D'ANtoni.

It's laughable to suggest that great coaches like Pop stole from MDA. I don't think MDA invented floor spacing. But he did invent shooting an inoordinate amount of 3s at all costs which the Spurs clearly do not and never did.

nixluva wrote:MDA deserves more respect than this. To give him a D as a coach shows way too much bias for me. He calls him Antoni as many people do and yet when Mike was winning he never had a poor defensive team and he was beating the BEST teams in the league out West. The 2 years he got to the WCF's his team was no less than top 4 in the league. You get to the Conference finals and that means your team was better than all but 1 team in your Conference. How can you be a bad coach in that case. If he was bad what did that make all the coaches he beat? So I guess it was all the roster and he had no part in why his teams won. It was only his system and style of play that his teams implemented.

He actually had a very impactful effect on other teams since there are so few C's in the league now, his style has been adopted by other coaches. Even Popovich used his offensive scheme as he saw his team declining. It worked too in that it boosted the teams effectiveness and made them better than they probably should've been. People assume that his teams won cuz of the talent and fail to realize that he got his teams further than they should've based on such a lack of size. Even if you have a big it can be successful to create room for your bigman to operate as the Magic have seen. Coach K at Duke uses his principles as well as the Olympic team. People can hate all they want, but very few coaches have been able to have such an impact on the game in recent years. Think about it. This guy hasn't been coaching stacked teams like Phil Jax. Yet he was able to have more teams using his system than any other in recent years.

Lastly when this team is kicking teams teeth in and winning games what will Rosen have to say then? My guess is nothing like he did when Mike took one of the smallest teams ever into the WCF. When STAT was out and he had KT and Diaw as his centers. Gee how the hell did he get his team to the WCF's with no C out in the tough Western Conf.? He didn't just sneak in or win against weak teams in the Eastern conference. I'm still waiting for some naysayer to explain that one to me!!!!

I know that Nix is sometimes overly optimistic but I find you response a bit pathetic.

There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right? Pop leans on one of the best 2-way players ever and Tony Parker and Manu. Jackson's 3peats come on the back of 2 HOFs complimented with 1-2 low-level other all stars on the team.

If you think Nash, Amare and Marion compare to any of the other 3 allstar list you are clearly mistaken.

Also, please let me know your list of the defensive bigs that MDA has not played over his roster years, especially with PHO when he was going up against Spurs and LAL. I constantly come up empty.

Also, regarding Amare's minutes last year: you would have rested him and gone with Turiaf more? Or AR/Moz who were caca for the duration? And if you did go with AR/Moz, were you willing to concede the playoffs, cause that's probably the price.

Lastly, you talk about shooting an inordinate amount of 3s. PHO and NY have been some of the most offensively efficient teams with MDA running the show, so something much be going correctly, no? So why would speak in bad terms regarding the 3s?

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
7/26/2011  11:14 AM
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
martin
Posts: 76214
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/26/2011  11:57 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
7/26/2011  12:06 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

I think being fired once after 4+ seasons and a coy award is different then being repeatedly fired. Fans calling for Rivers to be fired is also different than his actually being fired. There are a lot of fans that think D'Antoni should have been canned but it doesn't change the fact that he is starting his fourth season in ny. A lot of coaches don't last that long at one place. Also, don't discount the tanking for Oden in the draft. As far as why didn't Thibs and Frank coach for Doc before, I think Thibs was in Houston and Frank was in NJ.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
martin
Posts: 76214
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/26/2011  1:43 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

I think being fired once after 4+ seasons and a coy award is different then being repeatedly fired. Fans calling for Rivers to be fired is also different than his actually being fired. There are a lot of fans that think D'Antoni should have been canned but it doesn't change the fact that he is starting his fourth season in ny. A lot of coaches don't last that long at one place. Also, don't discount the tanking for Oden in the draft. As far as why didn't Thibs and Frank coach for Doc before, I think Thibs was in Houston and Frank was in NJ.

who was repeatedly fired?

And why are you discounting tanking for Oden and not discounting 4 years of roster upheaval?

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
7/26/2011  1:53 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

I think being fired once after 4+ seasons and a coy award is different then being repeatedly fired. Fans calling for Rivers to be fired is also different than his actually being fired. There are a lot of fans that think D'Antoni should have been canned but it doesn't change the fact that he is starting his fourth season in ny. A lot of coaches don't last that long at one place. Also, don't discount the tanking for Oden in the draft. As far as why didn't Thibs and Frank coach for Doc before, I think Thibs was in Houston and Frank was in NJ.

who was repeatedly fired?

And why are you discounting tanking for Oden and not discounting 4 years of roster upheaval?

You said Doc was repeatedly fired. I quoted you.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
martin
Posts: 76214
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/26/2011  2:08 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

I think being fired once after 4+ seasons and a coy award is different then being repeatedly fired. Fans calling for Rivers to be fired is also different than his actually being fired. There are a lot of fans that think D'Antoni should have been canned but it doesn't change the fact that he is starting his fourth season in ny. A lot of coaches don't last that long at one place. Also, don't discount the tanking for Oden in the draft. As far as why didn't Thibs and Frank coach for Doc before, I think Thibs was in Houston and Frank was in NJ.

who was repeatedly fired?

And why are you discounting tanking for Oden and not discounting 4 years of roster upheaval?

You said Doc was repeatedly fired. I quoted you.

Oh right. Remove repeatedly.

And then you have a coach who can't win anything without 3 HOF players and a 4th all-star in his starting lineup.

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
skeng
Posts: 22090
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 10/27/2009
Member: #2959
Denmark
7/26/2011  3:03 PM
I'm with nix on this one. I was kinda amazed to see Pringles get that low a grade. To me that is some great bias right there.

Did people really have higher expectations for last season? We made it to the playoffs despite having a roster with some serious holes and a season distracted by trade rumors. And then the actual trade happening. Most people in here predicted us to coast around .500, including myself. Almost none of us was thinking that we'd win 50 games as far as I remember.

And it's not like we weren't competitive in the first round against Boston. In the first two games we we're a call (KG kneeing TD, giving RayRay the open shot) and some luck away from either being up by 1 or 2 wins or tied going back to NY.

So how did D'Antoni screw up last season?

Positives I remember from last season:
- Fields being RoY before the trade.
- Mosgov showing progress throughout the season
- Felton playing out of his mind for a good stretch, making us the hottest team in the league doing that period. Averaging 17 and 9 before the all star break.
- STAT actually being seriously considered the MVP for once in this league during that same stretch, including his 30+ points streak.
- Wilson Chandler progressing this year, including every other year up to last year.
- Gallo showing progress this season as well; his aggressiveness and getting to the line - though his inconsistency didn't change too much.
- Reviving Shawne Williams and him becoming one of the top 3pt shooters that season (though Donnie is responsible for the reviving part)

Doesn't Mike D have a hand in all of these positives?

Which negatives do we have which are partially or directly due to Mike D's coaching this year? AR not getting burn? I do remember all the previous seasons' mistakes with Hill, Duhon etc., but through all these Pringles discussions, didn't most people call last season out as his actual "test" as a coach?

Legalize di NBA
martin
Posts: 76214
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/26/2011  3:12 PM
Here is what I would like to know about Rosen's analysis:

If the barometer for grading is one is of the ball (as evidenced by MDA's lack of D), why would Skiles get a B? His coaching on the offensive side was atrocious.

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
7/26/2011  3:38 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

I think being fired once after 4+ seasons and a coy award is different then being repeatedly fired. Fans calling for Rivers to be fired is also different than his actually being fired. There are a lot of fans that think D'Antoni should have been canned but it doesn't change the fact that he is starting his fourth season in ny. A lot of coaches don't last that long at one place. Also, don't discount the tanking for Oden in the draft. As far as why didn't Thibs and Frank coach for Doc before, I think Thibs was in Houston and Frank was in NJ.

who was repeatedly fired?

And why are you discounting tanking for Oden and not discounting 4 years of roster upheaval?

You said Doc was repeatedly fired. I quoted you.

Oh right. Remove repeatedly.

And then you have a coach who can't win anything without 3 HOF players and a 4th all-star in his starting lineup.


Sounds a lot like Nash, Amare, Marion and Johnson except that coach couldn't get out of his conference and wouldn't hire defensive assistants.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
martin
Posts: 76214
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/26/2011  3:48 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

I think being fired once after 4+ seasons and a coy award is different then being repeatedly fired. Fans calling for Rivers to be fired is also different than his actually being fired. There are a lot of fans that think D'Antoni should have been canned but it doesn't change the fact that he is starting his fourth season in ny. A lot of coaches don't last that long at one place. Also, don't discount the tanking for Oden in the draft. As far as why didn't Thibs and Frank coach for Doc before, I think Thibs was in Houston and Frank was in NJ.

who was repeatedly fired?

And why are you discounting tanking for Oden and not discounting 4 years of roster upheaval?

You said Doc was repeatedly fired. I quoted you.

Oh right. Remove repeatedly.

And then you have a coach who can't win anything without 3 HOF players and a 4th all-star in his starting lineup.


Sounds a lot like Nash, Amare, Marion and Johnson except that coach couldn't get out of his conference and wouldn't hire defensive assistants.

Perhaps you can review some history and match the details of the PHO 2004-5 season and very young players in Amare and JJ. You remember JJ getting his eye almost poked out too, right?

And then JJ was gone cause management was too cheap.

62 wins and losing to Spurs nothing to sneeze at.

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
7/26/2011  5:59 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
There aren't too many finals coaches and finals winners that don't have 3 or more current or former all-stars. Rivers was an awful coach who was repeatedly fired until he could get a lineup of 3 HOFs and an all-star, right?

I think you are really stretching things here to make a point. Rivers has only had 2 jobs. His first was in Orlando. He was there for over four years and won coach of the year one season. He is about to start his seventh season in Boston. If you want to say that he was close to losing his job in Boston before Ainge acquired KG and Allen I would agree with that. However, at the time there was a lot of talk that Boston was tanking to get Greg Oden. One thing that Doc does that D'Antoni doesn't do is hire great assistants and let them do their thing. Frank and Thibs are two of the best coaches in the nba in my opinion and if you have the opportunity to allow them to run your defense you do that. D'Antoni turned down that opportunity in Phoenix with Thibs and hired his brother. Doc won a title.

MDA has also won Coach of the year. So let me express my stretching of things: River has coached 2 teams and before 3 HOF's arrived everyone was calling for him to be fired from his team in Boston just as he was fired in Orlando.

Why didn't Rivers hire those guys before he got 3 HOF's and an allstar to join his starting lineup and when his neck was on the line?

I think being fired once after 4+ seasons and a coy award is different then being repeatedly fired. Fans calling for Rivers to be fired is also different than his actually being fired. There are a lot of fans that think D'Antoni should have been canned but it doesn't change the fact that he is starting his fourth season in ny. A lot of coaches don't last that long at one place. Also, don't discount the tanking for Oden in the draft. As far as why didn't Thibs and Frank coach for Doc before, I think Thibs was in Houston and Frank was in NJ.

who was repeatedly fired?

And why are you discounting tanking for Oden and not discounting 4 years of roster upheaval?

You said Doc was repeatedly fired. I quoted you.

Oh right. Remove repeatedly.

And then you have a coach who can't win anything without 3 HOF players and a 4th all-star in his starting lineup.


Sounds a lot like Nash, Amare, Marion and Johnson except that coach couldn't get out of his conference and wouldn't hire defensive assistants.

Perhaps you can review some history and match the details of the PHO 2004-5 season and very young players in Amare and JJ. You remember JJ getting his eye almost poked out too, right?

And then JJ was gone cause management was too cheap.

62 wins and losing to Spurs nothing to sneeze at.

I still say when you call someone's post pathetic and part of your reasoning is that Doc Rivers was repeatedly fired until he had 3 HOFs your argument is pretty flawed.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Charlie Rosen Article: Grading the coaches

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy